Prospero was a tragedy for the Wolves/Imperi, not a victory.

[Wispy]

Why did Magnus not surrender?

I was musing this the other day, and of course, it goes back to how arrogant Magnus is, doesn't it? Surrendering would spare his sons, but of course he thinks its entirely appropriate that the sons suffer for the sins of the father. They're all there to get the spanking with him. Feeds right into his god complex.

[Garreck]

 

Now personally, I don't mind the 'executioner' thing, it answers some important questions. Now I don't like what they stripped from the Wolves in the process (Crusade performance, Inter-Legion relations, Allies etc.), but they should at least leave have left the Wolves capable of acting in that capacity. That's the primary failure of the Wolves' treatment in the HH thus far. They've removed so much form the Legion, and replaced it with 'executioner' and 'loyalty'. Yet they also make the Wolves incapable of acting as executioners with how they're presenting Prospero (and to a lesser extent, every other time the Wolves go up against other Astartes), and FW have undermined the entire loyalty angle with the specific mentioning of traitor Wolves in the idiotic 'all Legions have Loyalists and Traitors' push.

 

 

I agree with this assessment.  It seems the identity of Heresy-era wolves was eroded into this very basic attack dog persona...and then we find out we're not even that good as attack dogs.  (It is of course interesting to note that 30k wolves are no less archetypal than 40k wolves, just a different archetype.)

 

I think the reason is less insidious than FW folks not liking space wolves.  This is simply what happens when you attempt to reconcile fiction aimed at fans of opposing forces.  Typical GW writing idealizes the faction for whom a book is intended to sell to.  Plot armor abounds, mary-sue-isms abound.  Then FW writes a campaign about the same events that have been documented from opposing and conflicting perspectives, and you have to make the two versions of the story jive.

 

*edit* removed an off-topic thought

[Guest]

 

 

 

SW tied up 3 legions in combat keeping them away from terra. Though not a victory and more or less stalemates, SW still had significant impact in the heresy. Sometimes a platoon is not recognized for a single victory but by their constant contribution to the entire war effort. If we had 8v8 and you held off 3 guys allowing it to be 7v5, would you not be the hero even if you never did beat up the other 3?

 

Which three were they? Source? As far as I was aware all Traitor Legions got to Terra. Originally the Wolves were driving to relieve Terra, alongside the DAs (with a few stops along the way), not tying up a third of the Traitor Legions in some unnamed conflict.

 

 

Sorry I meant forces not legions. You had Thousand Sons at Prospero, followed by the Alpha Legion in pursuit, then the coalition forces at Yarant which IIRC was a significant size and didn't turn out to well for the SW. You also had the SW legion being divided as some were sent as Wolf Pack to over watch the other Primarchs, and some sent out to help find/with the knight-errants to assassinate Horus.  

  

So we are talking about the smallest legion already breaking apart to support missions, taking down another legion, then tangling with Alpha Legion, further broke apart, and then a coalition force sent out as a trap at Yarant.  

  

To be honest that is actually pretty admirable because the SW were enough of a threat that even though they weren't in the thick of the fighting, Horus had to constantly dedicate troops away from the battle to keep the SW at bay from joining the fight. That takes forces away from the the other legions and focused just on the SW. Had they not been a threat Horus would have let them come to the fight and crush them. He had to delay them as long as possible, knowing if they showed up that it would be the end. The tactics Horus used weren't meant to crush them but merely delay the SW from joining the fight hence using Alpha Legion and as a final resort the coalition forces at Yarant. Once Terra fell, Horus could focus on the SW and gun them down in force. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

 

 

SW tied up 3 legions in combat keeping them away from terra. Though not a victory and more or less stalemates, SW still had significant impact in the heresy. Sometimes a platoon is not recognized for a single victory but by their constant contribution to the entire war effort. If we had 8v8 and you held off 3 guys allowing it to be 7v5, would you not be the hero even if you never did beat up the other 3?

 

Which three were they? Source? As far as I was aware all Traitor Legions got to Terra. Originally the Wolves were driving to relieve Terra, alongside the DAs (with a few stops along the way), not tying up a third of the Traitor Legions in some unnamed conflict.

 

 

Sorry I meant forces not legions. You had Thousand Sons at Prospero, followed by the Alpha Legion in pursuit, then the coalition forces at Yarant which IIRC was a significant size and didn't turn out to well for the SW. You also had the SW legion being divided as some were sent as Wolf Pack to over watch the other Primarchs, and some sent out to help find/with the knight-errants to assassinate Horus.  

  

So we are talking about the smallest legion already breaking apart to support missions, taking down another legion, then tangling with Alpha Legion, further broke apart, and then a coalition force sent out as a trap at Yarant.  

  

To be honest that is actually pretty admirable because the SW were enough of a threat that even though they weren't in the thick of the fighting, Horus had to constantly dedicate troops away from the battle to keep the SW at bay from joining the fight. That takes forces away from the the other legions and focused just on the SW. Had they not been a threat Horus would have let them come to the fight and crush them. He had to delay them as long as possible, knowing if they showed up that it would be the end. The tactics Horus used weren't meant to crush them but merely delay the SW from joining the fight hence using Alpha Legion and as a final resort the coalition forces at Yarant. Once Terra fell, Horus could focus on the SW and gun them down in force. 

 

Thing is though, all of those battles took place years before Horus actually marched on Terra. So I'd struggle to say that fighting the Wolves kept any Traitors from Terra, especially as, as far as I'm aware, all 9 Traitor Legions got to the Siege.

 

Alaxxes wasn't meant to delay the Wolves, it was meant to wipe out/shatter them. And it would've succeeded if not for the Dark Angels. Because Wolves cannot win by themselves according to HH.

 

Yarant was the result of Russ going on the offensive, attacking Horus. But that was an abject failure and it seems the Wolves only survived because they were rescued by Corax and the RG. Because Wolves always need help according to the HH series.

 

And then there's Prospero. Which may have been retconned into the entire VI attacking a minority of the XV, and either way seem to only not fail miserably because of the Custodes/SoS, other forces etc. Because the Wolves cannot have a good representation in the HH series.

 

I wouldn't say a dozen or so squads being split off from the Legion for the Watch Packs made that much difference.

 

Also, unless FW have really messed up Inferno, the VI was definitively not the smallest Legion. That was the RG. And as they were supposed to have a numerical advantage at Prospero (vs the majority of the XV too), they should probably be bigger than the Sons, Salamander and DG too.

[NightHowler]

This is from Battle Bunnies:

 

Force size at time of Prospero approx 95,000 to 100,000 (see page 24 of Inferno for 11 Companies at an approximate 73,200 as part of the Censure Host).

 

And then goes on to list the Jarl, force size, and primary components of each company. Most companies having about 5,000 to 10,000 marines with two exceptions: a dreadnought heavy company only has 800, and the 13th only has 600.

[Runefyre]

That's encouraging.

 

Also, I love how our symbol in Inferno just happens to have TWO skulls hanging from it.....

 

[NightHowler]

Is there signigance to two skulls?

 

Maybe 2 legions down 1 to go?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Is there signigance to two skulls?

 

Maybe 2 legions down 1 to go?

I believe Runefyre is implying they may belong to the Primarchs of the Lost Legions

[Dagoth Ur]

 

Is there signigance to two skulls?

 

Maybe 2 legions down 1 to go?

I believe Runefyre is implying they may belong to the Primarchs of the Lost Legions

 

 

Interpretation based upon thin air as, by the same logic, the Alpha Legion Emblem from book three could just as well imply that the Legion had a third primarch sibling or some sort of other conspiracy.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

 

Is there signigance to two skulls?

 

Maybe 2 legions down 1 to go?

I believe Runefyre is implying they may belong to the Primarchs of the Lost Legions

Interpretation based upon thin air as, by the same logic, the Alpha Legion Emblem from book three could just as well imply that the Legion had a third primarch sibling or some sort of other conspiracy.

Oh, I'm not saying I agree with Runefyre's idea, just clarifying what he said

 

And believe it or not, there is actually a few theories bouncing around about a third Primarch in the Alpha Legion. I've read a few on this very site

[Dagoth Ur]

Is there signigance to two skulls?

Maybe 2 legions down 1 to go?

I believe Runefyre is implying they may belong to the Primarchs of the Lost Legions

Interpretation based upon thin air as, by the same logic, the Alpha Legion Emblem from book three could just as well imply that the Legion had a third primarch sibling or some sort of other conspiracy.

Oh, I'm not saying I agree with Runefyre's idea, just clarifying what he said

And believe it or not, there is actually a few theories bouncing around about a third Primarch in the Alpha Legion. I've read a few on this very site

Oh I am sorry if that came off wrong, didn't want to imply anything there mate :)

Yeah I've read some of them but at the end of the day I chose to follow the trusty principle of Occam's Razor

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Is there signigance to two skulls?

Maybe 2 legions down 1 to go?

I believe Runefyre is implying they may belong to the Primarchs of the Lost Legions

Interpretation based upon thin air as, by the same logic, the Alpha Legion Emblem from book three could just as well imply that the Legion had a third primarch sibling or some sort of other conspiracy.

Oh, I'm not saying I agree with Runefyre's idea, just clarifying what he said

And believe it or not, there is actually a few theories bouncing around about a third Primarch in the Alpha Legion. I've read a few on this very site

Oh I am sorry if that came off wrong, didn't want to imply anything there mate

Yeah I've read some of them but at the end of the day I chose to follow the trusty principle of Occam's Razor

I pretty much accept anything, because the last few years have proven that GW/BL/FW is willingly to re-write or erase anything.

So 3 primarchs is somewhat believable.

[Hrolf the Cunning]

Looking at some of the numbers being reported, the wolves didnt seem to have enormous numerical advantage which makes the outcome a great deal more palatable, I'd like to see some casualty figures.

[Athrawes]

Looking at some of the numbers being reported, the wolves didnt seem to have enormous numerical advantage which makes the outcome a great deal more palatable, I'd like to see some casualty figures.

 

Basically the wolves showed up with 73,000 of their 100,000 . At the end, the lost about 25,000 Wolves on Prospero, a third of their force and a quarter of the full Legion.

 

The XV Legion on Prospero had 62,000 (out of their full Legion size of 80-90,000) Only 3,000 thousand sons made it off Prospero.  After the rest are hunted Down, there are something like 15,000-25,000 Thousand sons left after Prospero roaming the Galaxy/on Sortiarius.

 

For everyone who has ever moaned about the wolves representation of their victory at Prospero, those numbers are pretty telling, they had only a slight numerical advantage in terms of Legionaries (in addition to 5,000 sons of Horus, 1000 Custodes, 3000 Sisters of Silence), and they pretty much exterminated 96% of the XV Legion on Prospero for only 33% Casualties.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Looking at some of the numbers being reported, the wolves didnt seem to have enormous numerical advantage which makes the outcome a great deal more palatable, I'd like to see some casualty figures.

 

Basically the wolves showed up with 73,000 of their 100,000 . At the end, the lost about 25,000 Wolves on Prospero, a third of their force and a quarter of the full Legion.

 

 

The XV Legion on Prospero had 62,000 (out of their full Legion size of 80-90,000) Only 3,000 thousand sons made it off Prospero. After the rest are hunted Down, there are something like 15,000-25,000 Thousand sons left after Prospero roaming the Galaxy/on Sortiarius.

 

 

For everyone who has ever moaned about the wolves representation of their victory at Prospero, those numbers are pretty telling, they had only a slight numerical advantage in terms of Legionaries (in addition to 5,000 sons of Horus, 1000 Custodes, 3000 Sisters of Silence), and they pretty much exterminated 96% of the XV Legion on Prospero for only 33% Casualties.

 

 

 

 

Dude, you could've stuck that in spoiler tags. That is exactly the sort of thing I've been trying to avoid while waiting for Inferno's general release.

[Guest]

 

 

Looking at some of the numbers being reported, the wolves didnt seem to have enormous numerical advantage which makes the outcome a great deal more palatable, I'd like to see some casualty figures.

 

Basically the wolves showed up with 73,000 of their 100,000 . At the end, the lost about 25,000 Wolves on Prospero, a third of their force and a quarter of the full Legion.

 

 

The XV Legion on Prospero had 62,000 (out of their full Legion size of 80-90,000) Only 3,000 thousand sons made it off Prospero. After the rest are hunted Down, there are something like 15,000-25,000 Thousand sons left after Prospero roaming the Galaxy/on Sortiarius.

 

 

For everyone who has ever moaned about the wolves representation of their victory at Prospero, those numbers are pretty telling, they had only a slight numerical advantage in terms of Legionaries (in addition to 5,000 sons of Horus, 1000 Custodes, 3000 Sisters of Silence), and they pretty much exterminated 96% of the XV Legion on Prospero for only 33% Casualties.

 

 

 

 

Dude, you could've stuck that in spoiler tags. That is exactly the sort of thing I've been trying to avoid while waiting for Inferno's general release.

 

 

 

was it really necessary, we know the end resort but these are just numerical values to represent what we already know.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Looking at some of the numbers being reported, the wolves didnt seem to have enormous numerical advantage which makes the outcome a great deal more palatable, I'd like to see some casualty figures.

Basically the wolves showed up with 73,000 of their 100,000 . At the end, the lost about 25,000 Wolves on Prospero, a third of their force and a quarter of the full Legion.

The XV Legion on Prospero had 62,000 (out of their full Legion size of 80-90,000) Only 3,000 thousand sons made it off Prospero. After the rest are hunted Down, there are something like 15,000-25,000 Thousand sons left after Prospero roaming the Galaxy/on Sortiarius.

For everyone who has ever moaned about the wolves representation of their victory at Prospero, those numbers are pretty telling, they had only a slight numerical advantage in terms of Legionaries (in addition to 5,000 sons of Horus, 1000 Custodes, 3000 Sisters of Silence), and they pretty much exterminated 96% of the XV Legion on Prospero for only 33% Casualties.

Dude, you could've stuck that in spoiler tags. That is exactly the sort of thing I've been trying to avoid while waiting for Inferno's general release.

was it really necessary, we know the end resort but these are just numerical values to represent what we already know.

I'd have appreciated it, as those numbers have been one of the most eagerly anticipated, contentious and discussed aspects of Inferno. Numbers deployed, both relative and absolute strength, plus casualties are key elements of the Prospero story in the wider Heresy context, and precisely the sort of thing I'd rather have come across first in the book (which isn't even up for preorder yet) rather than come across by surprise in a forum post.

Granted, you could say 'why are even in this thread?'. To which I'd reply that this isn't a thread about Inferno, I repeatedly asked for no spoilers in my earlier posts, and I shouldn't have to become a forum hermit for a month just because I did not attend the HH weekender. People want to bring Inferno info into the discussion? Fine, but I would've liked the opportunity to bow out without getting spoiled.

Edit: Apologies if that came across as aggressive/combative. That wasn't my intention. Having a rather bad couple of weeks atm, not improved by the information that we're still a month or so away from Inferno general release, plus the ongoing lack of SW bits from FW. And getting something I've been waiting for so long accidentally spoiled hardly improved matters.