Happy Birthday, Carl! How old are you now?

[Xisor]

Perusing "Fall of Cadia", various things have leapt out at me, in positive and negative ways.

 

However, on page 16, fifth paragraph, one detail keeps coming back to haunt and vex me.

 

"The ancient Tech-Priest had spent the better part of ten millennia engaged in his repetitive labours on Mars, and the temptation of new discoveries was too strong to deny."

 

One, he's listed as an archmagos dominus - I'd be curious to hear how one becomes pre-eminent on Mars, a relatively peaceful place one might imagine. (Relatively.) Hardly beyond conception, I know, but given the idea of a Dominus is very much *battle leading ultra-warrior priest*, it's fascinating that his history is broadly unremarked. He's not a technoarchaelogiest, not a front-lines crusader, not a pioneer into the wilderness of unknown empires... but a repetitive labourer of Mars.

 

My instinct was to tut and scoff, but conceptually I'm actually quite dazzled by the idea. I doubt that much thought was given to the remark - but then I could be very ungenerous in thinking that. Who knows. Nevertheless: it got into my head.

 

The other, rather more stark detail (amplified in combination with the above) is that little mention - the better part of ten millennia at repetive laboriousness on Mars. Not explorating (a word?), nor battling the fiends in places afar, but on Mars.

 

For over five millennia, possibly up to almost ten.

 

That's a hell of a thing.

 

For one, he's at least five thousand years *lived*. Perhaps in stasis or somehow skipping time as part of the repetition on Mars, but ultimately: 5,000 years on Mars. Or more.

 

So, we're probably due him a few "happy birthdays", but it rather intriguingly begs the question: how bloody old is he?

 

(And is this later in the book? I'm only at page fifty one, so far.)

Edited February 6, 2017 by Xisor

[Magos Takatus]

I can't comment on every point but one that I thought useful to point out is mentioned in the Cult Mechanicus book that many senior Tech Priests "adjust their rank at will", so he probably had a different rank when he was fiddling around with bits of junk while on Mars but once he needed to go on the warpath he picked up the Dominus title. Perhaps it made requisitioning an entourage easier? How he became an Arch Tech Priest in peaceful times I'm not sure. Maybe he's just one of those guys that have been around the workplace so long nobody really knows what he does, there's just this vague notion everything would fall apart if he left so they gave him a fancy title to keep him productive instead of wandering off on an adventure as an Explorator? 

 

As for his birthdays, I think he would need a pretty big cake for all those candles. I can see a Baneblade chassis groaning under the weight of sponge and burning wax. I'm not sure how they would expect him to blow out the candles!

 

I know this post isn't particularly serious, but considering how complicated Mechanicus politics are suggested to be I can't come up with a satisfactory answer. Perhaps he was in control of a number of forge complexes and was extremely efficient at meeting production quotas? This could potentially keep him in high regard and he would probably spend his free time (or extra cogitation cycles) on his personal projects, since it seems likely that he's been preparing for quite a while. 

[Odds.043]

I'm not sure how they would expect him to blow out the candles!

 

Robot lungs and specialized air evacuation hoses

 

As for his title, maybe he delved into the highly lethal and trap filled underground archives of mars, like Arkhan Land, and that's how he got his rank.

[MajorNese]

The traditional fluff stated that techpriests engage in an endless cycle of 3 actions: Study, research and application/fabrication. Study means acquiring existing knowledge, research means either creating knowledge through experimentation or rediscovering old knowledge. Application means putting it to good use by improving/supervising the forges or fighting. Fighting wouldn't be required for all branches of techpriests, just the ones specializing on that (like ordinatii or secutors). Other branches like biologis or fabricator might work or study in a warzone, but don't need to.

 

Climbing the ranks doesn't require fighting, it just requires success in their field. Remember, they are still scientists by principle, knowledge and success in warfare is equal to any other field. Best example would be Arkham Land, who spent most of his time on Mars, fighting through defense systems of old tunnels and rediscovering a lot of technology. Followed by studying that technology to understand it, followed by application on the astartes' and even custodes' armoury. He didn't need to leave mars to do all that. If he (as both 30k magos and high-ranking priest) is subject to the cycle isn't explained anywhere, but at least the old 40k fluff had this, so that could point to the repetitiveness of Carls work.

[Akrim]

Dudes its Cawl, not Carl hehe.

 

But to broadly answer the question; the fluff mentions that acension in the myriad ranks of the Mechanicum can take millenia in a myriad of ways. Cawl could have been anything from an STC archivist to a princeps of some obscure machinery of the forge.

 

I doubt Cawl himself even knows how old he is.

[Perry]

The details are recorded somewhere, as all things Mechanicus are, however no one can find where to look.

[Vel'Cona]

Or knows how to interpret the ancient machine code that was used to record that data.

[Xisor]

I can't comment on every point but one that I thought useful to point out is mentioned in the Cult Mechanicus book that many senior Tech Priests "adjust their rank at will", so he probably had a different rank when he was fiddling around with bits of junk while on Mars but once he needed to go on the warpath he picked up the Dominus title. Perhaps it made requisitioning an entourage easier? How he became an Arch Tech Priest in peaceful times I'm not sure. Maybe he's just one of those guys that have been around the workplace so long nobody really knows what he does, there's just this vague notion everything would fall apart if he left so they gave him a fancy title to keep him productive instead of wandering off on an adventure as an Explorator? :teehee:

 

As for his title, maybe he delved into the highly lethal and trap filled underground archives of mars, like Arkhan Land, and that's how he got his rank.

 

 

Perfect thinking, guys - I'm forgetting the lore to such an extent that I'd overlooked the inconsistency and flippancy of the Ad Mech too. It'd be have been cool if GW had actually mentioned those sorts of ideas, but i'm very happy with them in headcanon - after a while the title is a tool, not a result itself.

 

The traditional fluff stated that techpriests engage in an endless cycle of 3 actions: Study, research and application/fabrication. Study means acquiring existing knowledge, research means either creating knowledge through experimentation or rediscovering old knowledge. Application means putting it to good use by improving/supervising the forges or fighting. Fighting wouldn't be required for all branches of techpriests, just the ones specializing on that (like ordinatii or secutors). Other branches like biologis or fabricator might work or study in a warzone, but don't need to.

 

Climbing the ranks doesn't require fighting, it just requires success in their field. Remember, they are still scientists by principle, knowledge and success in warfare is equal to any other field. Best example would be Arkham Land, who spent most of his time on Mars, fighting through defense systems of old tunnels and rediscovering a lot of technology. Followed by studying that technology to understand it, followed by application on the astartes' and even custodes' armoury. He didn't need to leave mars to do all that. If he (as both 30k magos and high-ranking priest) is subject to the cycle isn't explained anywhere, but at least the old 40k fluff had this, so that could point to the repetitiveness of Carls work.

Fascinating indeed, and underlines the aforequoted points very neatly, with a good establishment of the type of career trajectories that get from A to B to Archmagos Dominus!

 

Incidentally, I've heard it suggested in a couple of places that ol' Carl is in fact Arkhan Land himself. I'm not sure I'd be happy with that... but at the same time, it's pretty endearing too.

 

---

 

More than all that, I've just finished up my read of "The Fracture of Biel-Tan", and as TGS 3 has been somewhat spoiled for everyone, I think we're pretty reliably assured of what is in the Triaros Conveyor he's lugging around with him.

 

Guilliman's New Armour, for one. Possibly the Emperor's old sword, for two. These would also tie in, somewhat well, with the idea that Carl is Arkhan's middle name. Or perhaps his long-lost evil twin?

 

That said, I'm not entirely convinced that the better part of 10,000 years would be required for such a labour, so I'm not entirely buying it. Nevertheless!

 

All of this has me envisaging a more sedate version of the Gathering Storm, where there's only a handful of 'great men of history', and technically vast majority are either incidental people, or figureheads for more vast enterprises and conspiracies.

 

E.g. Carl isn't a lone gunman whose plot hinges on a galactic boatload of coincidences, but is actually a radical who's been tirelessly working to ensure that, when the time comes, he's in the right place at the he right time. (Meaning he's been in a lot of wrong places at almost the right time, rat her the heh an working for 10knears and gEttington it right first go.)

 

Similarly, I'd be content with plenty of schisms, plenty of rival Mechanicus factions trying to foil him etc etc.

 

---

 

In short, I'm actually happy with it all, I just wish there was more detail and fewer 'just so' coincidences! :)

[MajorNese]

 

Incidentally, I've heard it suggested in a couple of places that ol' Carl is in fact Arkhan Land himself. I'm not sure I'd be happy with that... but at the same time, it's pretty endearing too.

Well, haven't found indications myself, but just finished the one 30k book featuring Arkhan quite a lot. The only detail reminding me of Carl was that Arkhan discovered a fancy archaeotech gun, mounted onto a servo arm and included digits to control it (AFAIR), which is what Carls atomizer is remotely modeled like, but it differs in name. Everything else just doesn't add up, from refusing modification of his outside appearance, being accompanied by an engineered cyber monkey, and explorating in an enlarged skimmer spartan/raider. Carl is described as just going on repetitive work and isn't exactly the flamboyant type, while Arkhan is very..."convinced of himself" and goes on exploration tours of the rather non-boring (read: everyone could die) type.

 

 

I just wish there was more detail and fewer 'just so' coincidences!

Well, with Trazyn's pokeball advertising block, the "just so" really became ridiculous. "Hey, we haven't advertised these few regiments with models, so they are just hopping out before dying, mentioned in half a sentence. And we got that nice Calth box we could sell more of, so exactly those models will be there, with exact the same paint scheme as on the cover. And include the Dark Vengeance armies to "just so" face each other, so we can fill another page with an artwork as old as Malcador." Really?

[JeffTibbetts]

It is mentioned that he is taking up his old work again, in regards to the Primarch, so it's clear that he hasn't actually been actively working on it for 10K years. It would seem it was assigned to him during or shortly after the events of the HH, but his work was never completed. Now, he's been called upon (Cawled upon) to take it back up, and that sets up the third book. Having read through Fall of Cadia, I think it was explicitly stated that he's been alive for 10K years, but that may have been in White Dwarf or somewhere else.

 

I'm more intrigued by the tripartite consciousness, as that would indicate he is possibly a conglomerate of three different individual brains. At least, that's how it worked in the Fantasy Flight RPG (which isn't official canon, of course). It seemed to work that way in the fluff, because he was able to shift the processing power of each of his three minds in different ways. Is it possible that his first and second bodies have long since died, but were absorbed into his current one at some point? All three of them melding together into one 'person' that carries that particular name? 

[MajorNese]

I'm more intrigued by the tripartite consciousness, as that would indicate he is possibly a conglomerate of three different individual brains. At least, that's how it worked in the Fantasy Flight RPG (which isn't official canon, of course). It seemed to work that way in the fluff, because he was able to shift the processing power of each of his three minds in different ways. Is it possible that his first and second bodies have long since died, but were absorbed into his current one at some point? All three of them melding together into one 'person' that carries that particular name? 

The "multiple brains form one person" thing is not that unusual, so I guess the tripartite consciousness could be 3 brains, or his primary brain and two others implanted for more processing power, or one brain partitioned into 3 separate processes. The Mars trilogy had priests who added more brain parts to the mix, to the point of one priest being little more than a robot carrying around half a dozen brains in jars. Only constant about the brain mixture thing in the pre-codex fluff, all brains deteriorate over time, and must be replaced at some point.

[Battybattybats]

Cawl's repetitive labours could be nearly anything. He might have ruled over one of the large Forge-Temples, been part of the Synod, spent millennia trying to piece together old lost STC designs from his memory damaged by scrap-code he endured during the events of the Martian Schism of the Heresy.

The part of rank we know shifts easily is Magos Dominus, as any techpriest can decide it's time for military action and so take that mantle up, using whatever resources they may command and commandeer from their powerbase. But Cawl is an Archmagos which is a very high significant rank in itself (as seen in the HH 30k rules). But Cawl is no mere Archmaghos! We see that from the Battlefleet Gothic rules.

Cawl has command of an Ark Mechanicus, that's one of the rarest ships in the Imperium. These Mechanicus Battleships are so rare that a Mechanicus Explorator fleet in BFG can have only 1 of them even though it can take multiple other Imperial Battleships!

Furthermore an Ark Mechanicus must be commanded by an Archmagos Veneratus, the highest available rank in Battlefleet Gothic! Below it is Archmagos Explorator and 4 other ranks of ship commander. So Cawl is well above an ordinary Archmagos level. When he decided to leave Mars and go Explorator for a spin he commandeered what forces his position and political alliances would grant like any other techpriest turning Magos Dominus would... and got one of the rarest ships in the Imperium as his ride! Whatever he has been doing on Mars it's been a position of tremendous power and Influence.
 

 

SNIP
More than all that, I've just finished up my read of "The Fracture of Biel-Tan", and as TGS 3 has been somewhat spoiled for everyone, I think we're pretty reliably assured of what is in the Triaros Conveyor he's lugging around with him.
SNIP

Was that your own rhetorical flourish or does it literally mention a Triaros Conveyor?


 

[Vash113]

I think one of the more illustrative quotes on the age of Cawl is the following:
 

 

 

“Greyfax fell silent. She reminded herself that Cawl's artificial span far predated the Inquisition from which her authority sprang. She couldn't take his obedience for granted.”

-p.85

Given that the Inquisition was founded right around the Siege of Terra for Cawl's age to "far predate" the Inquisition he has to be well over 10,000 years old. So... very, very old.

Essentially there's really no limit to the age of the most senior Mechanicus Archmagi, between transferring their mind between bodies, storage mediums, life-support bionics and juvenant they are essentially immortal.
 

[JeffTibbetts]

I really need to get my hands on the Fracture of Biel-Tan for the fluff alone. This story is all so fascinating to me. 

[Vel'Cona]

There's a great thread in N&R that's a synopsis of GS2 by frater Goonbandito that should meet your needs, assuming you don't want to spend the cash just for some background material. 

[JeffTibbetts]

I read that, but I want ALL THE FLUFFS! 

[Battybattybats]

Ok just finished the fluff of GS1:FOC so have read that indeed it says Cawl has a modified Trairos Conveyor Reliquary to carry his special relic.
This is awesome! If nothing else it's a canon reason to field a Triaros in 40k with Cawl. It'd be a great reason to convert up the Reliquary and maybe it might even be possible for Forgeworld to make an accessory kit for the Triaros for it.

Presumably it would lose most and much more likely all the transport capacity but it's described as having Void Shields which protect those nearby. A Triaros that's a mobile Void Shield Generator? Buffed by Cawl? Yeah that's a variant that might be truly awesome on the table! Even if we cut down the radius so it protects less that would be cool. If GW and Forgeworld don't give us a scenario for that part of the events i'll write one up myself.

[Canadian_F_H]

Man... I had some crazy thoughts. If Cawl has there brains and one expires of old age and is replaced, then a few centuries later another, and then anther.. 10,000 years later Cawl still exists but his orginal 3 brains are long dead, even if there are overlaps of hundreds or even a thousand or 2 years, the 3 today might never have known a brain that knew the original 3....

[Vash113]

Man... I had some crazy thoughts. If Cawl has there brains and one expires of old age and is replaced, then a few centuries later another, and then anther.. 10,000 years later Cawl still exists but his orginal 3 brains are long dead, even if there are overlaps of hundreds or even a thousand or 2 years, the 3 today might never have known a brain that knew the original 3....

 

Indeed and Cawl does seem to have memory issues, he's grown so old that his memory has become fragmentary and even split consciousness and memory databank augmetics only help so much. Cawl has likely forgotten more techno-arcana than most members of the Adeptus Mechanicus will ever know but it also means he could be even more eccentric and unpredictable than most senior Tech Priests.

 

Here are two of the lines that show this issue Cawl seems to have with memory:

 

 

 

Cawl scoured the jumbled bibelots archived in his third consciousness. Fragments of memory, and a name. Veilwalker.

....

How strange that, until now, he had forgotten that meeting.

P. 17

 

Cawl didn't doubt that his and Veilwalker's interests were at best in temporary alignment, but even a fleeting alliance had the potential to alter the Imperium's course. He'd seen it happen so many times - even if he could no longer recall the details, or even the names of those involved. Too many broken fragments of yesterday, scattered like a mosaic. For all of Cawl's attempts to preserve it, the past lacked the texture of today.

P. 44

[Grand Master Laertes]

Oh, a nest of vile false adorators of the Omnissiah, I see! Don't you know that linking multiple brains to enhance your own data processing power is an abomination in the eyes of the Machine God?

 

In the "...of Mars" series Galatea was an heretic to the Techpriests of the Speranza, and they only joined forces with him because he was the only one who could help them reach the destination of their journey.

 

The nearest thing that is allowed by the dogma of the Cult is splitting your own brain in many sub-brains and using thrm for parallel data processing (also from the "... of Mars" series).

[MajorNese]

Oh, a nest of vile false adorators of the Omnissiah, I see! Don't you know that linking multiple brains to enhance your own data processing power is an abomination in the eyes of the Machine God?

 

In the "...of Mars" series Galatea was an heretic to the Techpriests of the Speranza, and they only joined forces with him because he was the only one who could help them reach the destination of their journey.

Galatea was primarily an abomination, because it started as an Abominable Intelligence (AI), that lured genius-level tech priests to its station and forcefully integrated their brains into its framework. One of the highest-ranking priests on the Speranza was the mentioned robot form with brain parts in jars, and IIRC had multiple servitor-brain parts to augment his processing power. But besides Galatea, entirely switching primary brains is something I can't remember happening.

[Xisor]

Yep, the Inquisitor game, via the Fanatic Magazine, had the right of Binary Cortex or something other, allowing the two brains in one body setup.

 

Azuramagelli or something like that, in "Titles of Mars", wasn't it - was basically a big geometric arrangement of brains in jars instead of a head.

 

Man, that trilogy is some of Graham's finest, most creative work. Properly lovely.

 

---

 

@Battybatbats - very good points on most takes here, the only thing I'd 'dispute' is the role of Dominus. The Codex: Cult Mechanicus page on them (I re-read it earlier out of interest) suggest they're all bona fide experts in matters of arms and killing and battlefield mastery; experts of no small pedigree.

 

Now, that's not to say that Carl hasn't done any of that, or that there aren't ways to circumvent it by other powers alone, but as so much of his background is in *other*, non-combat stuff that I'd read "Archmagos Dominus" as being a very senior Magos Dominus, not as an Archmagos who has assumed the role of Dominus.

 

Indeed, both the two Codices we have and the lore in the Skitarius and Tech Priest novels suggested to me that a Dominus is very much a battlefield leader of expert proportions (think more: Archmagos Myrmidon), rather than the leader of an expedition itself.

 

In that respect, I'd be happier if the Carl model was written as being the battlefield vassal of some hidden power in orbit - rather than the power itself? Does that make sense?

 

So you might have, for example, the actual 'boss' whose ideas these are, who commands the expedition, in or it aboard the Ark Mechanicus. Carl commands the ground forces as he can get things done. The fleet is commanded by Archmagos Veneratus Whoever etc.

 

Or to put it another way: in the Ad Mech the books take some pains to show that the battlefield leaders are rarely the commanding force of any such, err, force. The true commanders are in orbit/elsewhere.

 

Well, obviously not always, so I'm just readjusting my thinking around that based on new data that highlights the inconsistencies of my previous position.

 

<||]Being conceptual realignment[||>

[Battybattybats]

Ah but Xisor in this case we know for certain Cawl is the ultimate and absolute leader of the Mechanicus Explorators in the Fall of Cadia book. Cawl is Mechanicus Battlefield leader, Cawl is Mechanicus Fleet leader, Cawl is Mechanicus Research leader.

Of course his tripartite consciousness might make that easier, he's specifically described as having a 'war mode'.

[JeffTibbetts]

I love the actual term "war mode consciousness" as I imagine it like a User Interface shift, the heads-up display items changing from maybe green or blue to a fiery orange, his power systems shifting more energy to his weapons, chemicals flooding what's left of his bloodstream... meanwhile his tertiary consciousness continues to work on a complicate algorithm.

 

I think my favorite stuff about Cawl is his ability to work on multiple things at once. Now I want to reread Fall of Cadia. Lol

[SydonianDragoon404]

I'm building my Archmagos Cawl right now, and I was little bit surprised by just how...insect-like he is under the robes. Seeing what really makes up his body, I almost felt like I was putting together a Tyranid more than a cyborg. Really this is a great representation of how it is described in "Mechanicum" (I think it was in that book anyway) how some of the more robotic and inhuman Magi had appearances that were so horrifying to representatives of the Imperium, that the Mechanicum had to use an "ambassador" of sorts that had more of his human form intact. If I saw Archmagos Cawl I would be thinking it was a bad guy too if I didn't know any better.