hhhdan Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Really not sure what you don't like so much, any army with a primarch will be very small and elite, as most of the time people pair him up with a terminator guard unit that also is in a spartan or a big assault unit, like 20 assault marines for Curze, etc. If you don't like that kind of army, then you wouldn't really like fielding any primarch. So it just doesn't make sense to me that you say that magnus is better than russ or other primarchs because of the restrictions in army organisation... Yes his special rules are too good, i agree they should be adjusted (novas shouldn't be affected by the mind wrath and invisibility shouldn't stack with the -1 to hit. Maybe even take away -1 to hit altogether), but army composition? he's pretty much the same as other primarchs, sure he has a special rite of war, but it is pretty much the same as Primarchs chosen anyway, so I would prefer to have a different one if i had a choice... It is quite clear, you can only take grey slayers as a compulsory troops choice, all others gain support squad rule, but if you take russ, then you can also take veterans and special terminators as compulsory troops. I was saying that "hit and run" universal special rule is one of the best an assault army can have and you get it on everyone as part of the rite of war. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4655547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 This thread is about Magnus, not Spacewolves. Keep it on track... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4655557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Magnus is by far the strongest primarch out there. His powers are very over the top and his right of War is possibly the best it also makes primarchs chosen look like trash. Sure you lose Veterans as scoring instead you get the undercosted unique terminators, magnus is an HQ but doesn't stop you from also taking a lord of War, you also don't auto lose if your primarch dies and it gives actual bonuses. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4655565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalwolf Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 For my money that's how it should be. I've read all bar four or five of the 45+ HH novels and he's by far the one carrying more amazing feats. No other Primarch save Horus when he gets the Chaos level up should be as powerful. And I'm a staunch SW supporter.He turns into a giant and punches to death two Eldar phantom titans in one occasion, and in the other he :cussing breaks the barrier between the Warp and the Webway, something the four Chaos gods combined couldn't do. Magnus should be unstoppable when fueled by the Warp, and a mid tier Primarchs if for some reason that connection is severed or he can't use his powers because he's engaged in CC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4656759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreagher Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 That would be totally fine if he would cost more points. In order to keep things balanced you either have to tone hime down from the fluff level of beating everything or keep him awesome and make him costly. As it stands he seems to be able to take out nearly everything, without costing much more than the other primarchs. (He might have some weakness I am overlooking, but if not he is just better than the rest). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4657208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 @ Grieux Magnus doesn't smash the webway on his own, he was empowered by thousands of Thralls, and even then he needs the help of a "benevolent" warp entity (Tzeentch, you silly rabbit). Also, if I remember correctly, they are not revenant titans, but wraith knights. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4657828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionnaire of the VIIth Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 @ Grieux Magnus doesn't smash the webway on his own, he was empowered by thousands of Thralls, and even then he needs the help of a "benevolent" warp entity (Tzeentch, you silly rabbit). Also, if I remember correctly, they are not revenant titans, but wraith knights. They were Titans not Knights but also remember that they were possessed not piloted, and not operating at full efficiency (like they would have been if they were actually piloted by Eldar). The other Titan I remember him taking out was of human construction but had been damaged by an ally's titan before he finished it off. Don't get me wrong, these are no mean feats but full context still needs to be applied when using them as examples of power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4658052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 He would have been crushed if it wasen't for Phosis T'kar's force field. Phosis T'kar was awesome...R.I.P... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4658264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runefyre Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 He would have been crushed if it wasen't for Phosis T'kar's force field. Phosis T'kar was awesome...R.I.P... He is my fav Tson for sure..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4658332 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baluc Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 He would have been crushed if it wasen't for Phosis T'kar's force field. Phosis T'kar was awesome...R.I.P... He is my fav Tson for sure..... Because he is dead... right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4659432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Krash Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Eh The 1k sons only time in the Horus heresy was basically the Battle of Prospero, so per fluff, Magnus is 100% rules wise correct. Typically most 30k players play for narrative (and if your not your doing it drastically wrong) imo or fluff reasons. if your playing 30k to be competitive your playing the completely wrong system. I don't see anything wrong with Magnus being the powerhouse that he is compared to rules currently released primarchs due to the fact never really having to fight more than 1 narrative wise. I say, so he's powerful big deal, take a warlord titan and call me in the morning. Krash Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4659492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Eh The 1k sons only time in the Horus heresy was basically the Battle of Prospero, so per fluff, Magnus is 100% rules wise correct. Typically most 30k players play for narrative (and if your not your doing it drastically wrong) imo or fluff reasons. if your playing 30k to be competitive your playing the completely wrong system. I don't see anything wrong with Magnus being the powerhouse that he is compared to rules currently released primarchs due to the fact never really having to fight more than 1 narrative wise. I say, so he's powerful big deal, take a warlord titan and call me in the morning. Krash The problem isn't his power is disproportionate to fluff the problem is that his points do not reflect his rules at all. They can keep him just as strong but don't let him cost what he does. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4659494 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Magnus was at Terra also. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4659770 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Magnus was at Terra also.Magnus was fractured by that point so neither version of him we have is appropriate. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4659780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Typically most 30k players play for narrative (and if your not your doing it drastically wrong) imo or fluff reasons. if your playing 30k to be competitive your playing the completely wrong system. Krash I love these comments. Its not like they've cut out the fluff elements over time to create a more structured rule set. It's not like 30k is more actively balanced than 40k is. It's not like different people get different things out of a game system Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4659782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Krash Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 And I agree with you that's why I stated "IMO" but I don't believe complaining about a known powerful character is justified most of the complaining sounds like "my special snowflake isn't as powerful as your special snowflake" Also 30k is inherently balanced than 40k. But I digress 30k is balanced by the simple fact it's overall marines vs marines. Krash Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4659928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDrake28 Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 I'd stay in this case it's very justified. Magnus was kept below Horus' points cost for fluff reasons, but Magnus is way to powerful for those points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4659929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Krash Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 True but we can only speculate as to "if" magus were to go toe to toe with Horus fluff wise there is almost no question that Magnus would or at least could have beaten him. All primarchs had some from of psychic gift but Magnus was in a league all of his own even more psychically powerful than his father. Krash Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4659937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDrake28 Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Yeah, so his points should reflect that. Which they don't really at the moment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4659944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Krash Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Can't argue with you there Iron haha. Points wise yes he is undercosted. I'm curious what would be a fairer point cost for him then? Krash Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4659955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarkaira Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 888pts. Leaves most of the point ranges usually free of Magnus while you can easily discuss with your opponent about breaking rules to allow it in a less than 3500+ pts games. Also it is a fluffy number as well and takes about that much pts to wield a Sisters of Silence allies that can actually do something else somewhat properly if not facing Magnus the D-bimmer. It is so ridiculously broken that I am thinking about building a list around Magnus which compiles all the broken elements of 30k into one single army and then playing it agains some of the ETC weirdos of my country. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4660002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Krash Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Badass country it is Jarkaira much respect for your people. 888pts actually sounds reasonable. I wouldn't personally play 30k less than 3000+ so that would work. If 30k had it's own psychic tables maybe it would be better. Krash Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4660046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 The best part though is Guard kf the Crimson King means he's not limited by 25% and you can take a Typhon or Falchion or whatever else you want. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4660055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarkaira Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Luckily there is no need here for wondering if I'll meet up random Magnus in a pickup matches since we have such a small playerbase atm so you have to organize each match and therefore can discuss about the expectations and possible restrictions as well as intention for list building. It is good to notice that HH is seen as fun and narrative gaming even amongst ETC participants as War Head does organize a tournaments which are beginner friendly and fun as well. Currently 1750pts and no LoW including primarchs. It seems a bit too small for my taste but it does give a good oppurtunity for beginners to use their armies in an organized setting. I am thinking about going to a next tournament although it includes 750km of driving to Helsinki and back. Our local gaming group has been focused on starting HH after people got tired of 40k and we have hosted our first all inclusive (except for drinks as here in Finland all inclusive drinks would be same as killing people) tournament on a cabin and have started campaign also. As our prize structure doesn't involve placings at all but instead has a randomly drawn prize along with best looking army and best sportmanship we have had quite reasonable lists but still people play 'hard' instead of 'whatever' style associated to beer and pretzels games. That being said I am not in outrage due Magnus being OP as it will be most likely to used in a games in which a one person wants to field it and other wants to play against it. That doesn't mean I don't want to notice straight OP stuff but I just simply don't care if the atmosphere on the games here stay the same as it is. It may have too less points but I don't lose my sleep due that :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4660074 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baluc Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 The problem isn't so much that he is busted. The main issue is the distortion of the spirit of the game. Magnus is undeniably cool, but to play a game against him specifically requires so much compromise in list building that its almost not like playing the game at all. Perhaps if his Mind Wrath was limited to biomancy instead, and he had a psychic power that allowed him to switch to alternative profile that allowed him to ignore LoS and Range restrictions on his profile. I could see a sub 500 pt point cost to be worthwhile. As he stands he does too much with too few restrictions, heck they even removed him from being a LoW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/330717-is-magnus-the-red-horribly-broken/page/3/#findComment-4660765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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