Future Lore Speculation (Spoilers)

[Shifte]

So people are speculating wildly about Guilliman's role going forward. We know very, very little and therefore it's quite fun to wishlist (at least to me). A lot of people, including Bell of Lost Souls, think Guilliman will create a schism in the Imperium. BOLS even posited that he would be against the Eccliesiarchy as he doesn't agree with worshipping the Emperor.

I think that this is an incorrect assumption, however. In the March for Macragge article, Warhammer Community points out that Guilliman gets his 'Celestial Halo' from Celestine in order to prove that he is 'Blessed by the Emperor'. Moreover, in 30k Guilliman was well aware of the Mechanicum and their religion. He accepted them, even if he disagreed, and I don't see any real reason he'd be particularly antagonistic towards the Eccliesiarchy. At the end of the day, faith in the Emperor is a powerful unifying force and weapon against the Dark Gods. He only has to look at Celestine and her impact to see that.

With that in mind, I don't think he will be inherently against the Imperial Creed. If anything, the Emperor has BECOME a god figure since 30k and actively gives people holy power (primarily Sisters). However, I think Guilliman might find enemies within the High Lords of Terra and chapters like the Dark Angels. He will undoubtedly be against oppression and corruption, which exists throughout the Imperium. He might make the pragmatic decision to accept it as a long term problem rather than something he can solve in the short term, or it might come to a head and he might end up making (or provoking) enemies who like the Imperium as is.

Having explained that context, I can now go into my silly speculation:

Could the Eccliesiarchy, and the Sororitas, fall on different sides of any such divide? Given the Sisterhood is legitimately split between two Convents, one on Terra and one on Ophelia VII, it might lead to a situation where the Prioress' disagree with each other. What happens if the High Lords (including the Eccliesiarch) say something, and Guilliman (backed by Celestine) says the opposite? Do the Terran based Sisters side with the High Lords, or the Saint? Given Celestine is from OML, and they are on Ophelia VIII rather than Terra, it raises some interesting possibilities.

My own suspicion is that the Sisterhood would follow Celestine above anyone else, regardless of Order or Convent. I also suspect that the Sororitas won't play a major role or get much attention in this new lore, so it might be a moot point. Finally, if Abaddon kills the Emperor and Cypher kills Abaddon as has been rumoured elsewhere, it might be over so quickly that no schism really has a chance to form for long.

Thoughts? How do you think the Sisterhood would react? Could the Convent Sanctorum decide to ignore the supremacy of the Convent Prioris and back Celestine, if the Terran establishment refused Guilliman? Would you find an Imperial schism interesting? Would some sort of civil war within the Eccliesiarchy work? Could that ever lead to Sororicide (), or would the Sisters remain united despite it all?

Just some errant considerations. I like 40k as it is, but I'm not afraid of the 42nd millennium...

[Servant of Dante]

Well, the "supremacy of the Convent Prioris" isn't a thing. The Prioresses are of equal rank. Being intelegent Sisters and experienced politicians (they should be able to keep their zeal from blinding them too much), I imagine they would come to an agreement rather than fracture the Sororitas. I believe the Sisters are more cohesive than you make them out to be.

As to which direction they fall, that depends on the situation. The Ecclesiarch outranks the Prioresses, but he is the only one who does short of a High Lord. I think the Prioresses could possibly go against the Ecclesiarch, but again it depends on the situation.

What I don't see is them throwing all logic to the wind and saying "Celestine said to so we will!" Just no. The Prioresses would come to a decision based on what they think is right and righteous. Sure, Celestine, GMan, the Ecclesiarch, maybe some high lords, even Greyfax might affect this decision with their advice, but at the end of the day it's not about who says what, it's about what is said.

As long as the Prioresses decision is in line with the Creed (which I'm sure it would be) I can't see any real mutiny happening among the Orders Militant, especially the Orders Majoris. Remember, the rule of Sororitas says that your Superior's word is to be obeyed immediately and without question as if it were the word of Saint Dominica herself.

Of course I'm a bit biased toward the Sororitas staying whole, but regardless if this does happen I'm assuming the writers just don't know the Sisters fluff until proven otherwise. I know that's a rather callous thing to say. Erm . . . sorry :(

I mean, I'm interested in the new fluff, but I general I'm just pretending it doesn't exist in the context of the serious setting. Basically there's the Grimdark classic, and the new, not-quite-as-Grimdark where everything revolves around a couple people (not that that's a bad thing, just as long as I'm allowed to make the distinction)

Maybe with all this progression they could have the Abbess show up. That would make me more happy than literally anything else, personally. I wonder how many of the writers would even know what I'm talking about (I'm genuinely curious, some of them must, maybe even all of them!). Plus, with the Abbess back the Sisters would have a single leader.

Oh, and if a Canoness Superior told Celestine to do something, especially the Canoness Superior of the Order of Our Martyred Lady, I'd expect Celestine to hop to it. She's still a Sister of that order and subject to the proper chain of command, in the Emperor's name. And she should know it. Now, that doesn't mean the Canoness Superior wouldn't hear Celestine put if she had advice, she is a Living Saint after all, heck she might even defer to Celestine on some issues, but if the Canoness reaches a decision Celestine shouldn't hesitate to obey.

Final edit, I promise: very interesting topic! Thanks!

[Shifte]

Well, the "supremacy of the Convent Prioris" isn't a thing. The Prioresses are of equal rank. Being intelegent Sisters and experienced politicians (they should be able to keep their zeal from blinding them too much), I imagine they would come to an agreement rather than fracture the Sororitas. I believe the Sisters are more cohesive than you make them out to be.

As to which direction they fall, that depends on the situation. The Ecclesiarch outranks the Prioresses, but he is the only one who does short of a High Lord. I think the Prioresses could possibly go against the Ecclesiarch, but again it depends on the situation.

What I don't see is them throwing all logic to the wind and saying "Celestine said to so we will!" Just no. The Prioresses would come to a decision based on what they think is right and righteous. Sure, Celestine, GMan, the Ecclesiarch, maybe some high lords, even Greyfax might affect this decision with their advice, but at the end of the day it's not about who says what, it's about what is said.

As long as the Prioresses decision is in line with the Creed (which I'm sure it would be) I can't see any real mutiny happening among the Orders Militant, especially the Orders Majoris. Remember, the rule of Sororitas says that your Superior's word is to be obeyed immediately and without question as if it were the word of Saint Dominica herself.

Of course I'm a bit biased toward the Sororitas staying whole, but regardless if this does happen I'm assuming the writers just don't know the Sisters fluff until proven otherwise. I know that's a rather callous thing to say. Erm . . . sorry

I mean, I'm interested in the new fluff, but I general I'm just pretending it doesn't exist in the context of the serious setting. Basically there's the Grimdark classic, and the new, not-quite-as-Grimdark where everything revolves around a couple people (not that that's a bad thing, just as long as I'm allowed to make the distinction)

Maybe with all this progression they could have the Abbess show up. That would make me more happy than literally anything else, personally. I wonder how many of the writers would even know what I'm talking about (I'm genuinely curious, some of them must, maybe even all of them!). Plus, with the Abbess back the Sisters would have a single leader.

Oh, and if a Canoness Superior told Celestine to do something, especially the Canoness Superior of the Order of Our Martyred Lady, I'd expect Celestine to hop to it. She's still a Sister of that order and subject to the proper chain of command, in the Emperor's name. And she should know it. Now, that doesn't mean the Canoness Superior wouldn't hear Celestine put if she had advice, she is a Living Saint after all, heck she might even defer to Celestine on some issues, but if the Canoness reaches a decision Celestine shouldn't hesitate to obey.

Final edit, I promise: very interesting topic! Thanks!

Off to work, so will reply properly later! Just some quick observations:

1) I didn't imply that the Sisters are in-cohesive, but there are a few examples of them clashing. In the James Swallow novels, we see Sisters from Order of the Martyred Lady being quasi-hostile to each other due to basic divergence in behaviour. There are rivalries, different methods and even variances in attitudes towards what their duty which I found quite interesting. Moreover, in Dark Heresy, we're told that the Convent Sanctorum is the Convent that covers the Calixis Sector. Later, we get this tidbit:

"It is unknown why Palatine Rhiannon was sent from the Convent Prioris to the Calixis Sector. Her mission’s arrival on Iocanthos was initially considered a slight on the Canoness General and brought with it many questions. Only the influence of the Ordo Hereticus has managed to smooth things over."

I quite liked this, as it implied that the Sanctorum was sensitive to the Prioris intervening on their patch of the Galaxy. Furthermore, human history is full of religious strife - especially within the same faith. Even the Eccliesiarchy has had religious wars within itself. I'm not suggesting that this *has* to happen, or will happen, or is likely to happen. I'm speculating that if GW went down the schism route then it could happen and the already-existing split between Terra and Ophelia VII could lend itself to a schism in the Eccliesiarchy as well. Which might suit GW if there intention is to split the Imperium up a bit in the lore, but not on the tabletop.

2) The Abbess Sanctorum runs the Sororitas, of course, and current fluff says the Abbess is missing. She can often be a High Lord of Terra herself (isn't atm) and works closely with the Eccliesiarch. Part of the noted intention behind the acceptance of the Sisterhood post Reign of Blood was that the Sisters would serve to intervene should the Eccliesiarchy go too far again, so I think she could actively thwart him if she felt she had to. When I spoke about the 'supremacy' of the Convent Prioris however, it's because it's based on Terra and is where the Abbess Sanctorum is based (you'd think she'd be on the Convent Sanctorum given the title ). She has to be close to the Eccliesiarch/High Lords, it's the seat of Imperial Governance after all, so at least that makes sense. But the natural side effect is that Sororitas-wide decisions, which supersede both Prioress', are made from Terra.

(40k wiki states that the Abbess Sanctorum runs the Convent Prioris, but I can't see their source and choose to ignore it!)

However, the fact that the Abbess Sanctorum is -missing- throws up further intrigue as it leaves the two Prioress with no direct superior save the Eccliesiarch, who they are to some extent encouraged to scrutinise!

3) I disagree a bit on Celestine. I think she answers directly to the Emperor, now. We need more lore on her but she is certainly not a dutiful Battle Sister at this point. She takes command over Canoness', appears wherever and whenever she wants and leads Crusades. She answers to the Emperor, in her view and in my interpretation. I can't see her receiving orders from her Convent's Prioress or the Canoness Superior of the Martyred Lady. If Celestine (*note, random speculation here as an example) thinks Guilliman is on the righteous side of any civil strife (which may or may not happen, again) and the Eccliesiarch thinks the opposite, I'd expect her to back Guilliman. In that instance, I could see a split in the Sororitas thinking because the problem would be complex and there is no easy answer. You can't deny the Eccliesiarch and the High Lords due to the Rule of the Sororitas, but who can deny the Living Saint? Etc.

Whether that led to the Eccliesiarchy splitting and Sisters potentially fighting Sisters is another question entirely, but I think the theory behind why they could find themselves on both sides of any such dispute is solid. Again, whether we'd like to see that or not is another question!

It's more likely that in the space of three posts we've put more thought into what the Sisters do during this era in 40k lore than GW will, too...

With all of that said, I don't think it is particularly fair to say that if this happens the writers don't know Sisters fluff. I think I have a pretty decent understanding of Sororitas lore and I posited this theory in the first place. To me the above would be a reasonable explanation for how this might occur in the lore and fits in pretty well.

It is always important to remember that something being unprecedented in the lore doesn't make it unimaginable or unlikely should circumstances change (as they might, with Guilliman's return). Whether it is desirable is another thing altogether! I think this would require a very specific set of circumstances that probably won't happen - but I also think the above occurring is plausible. My own suspicion is that the Emperor will die/ascend, more Primarchs will return and the Imperium will be pretty united. I find it fun to speculate on the more radical theories, though.

[Shifte]

On another note: I think the Sororitas are incredibly united (they are one organisation after all) and that any schism would be even more tragic than that in the Space Marine Legions during the Heresy. It wouldn't be a matter of traitors v loyalists. They'd all be doing what they felt was righteous and true to their faith/duty. If this chain of events took place, and Sister fought Sister, I imagine many would be weeping. If GW go down the "every Imperial faction fractures" route that some suspect they will, this is one of the few ways I could see it working for the Sisters.

 

I'd much rather that than them all hating each other, at least.

[A.T.]

1) Do the Terran based Sisters side with the High Lords, or the Saint?

2) Thoughts? How do you think the Sisterhood would react? Could the Convent Sanctorum decide to ignore the supremacy of the Convent Prioris and back Celestine, if the Terran establishment refused Guilliman? Would you find an Imperial schism interesting? Would some sort of civil war within the Eccliesiarchy work? Could that ever lead to Sororicide (), or would the Sisters remain united despite it all?

1) Someone trying to become the supreme and only high lord off the claim of divine backing is exactly what the sisterhood was created to oppose. They will (or rather should) all follow the lead of the established order of things - the high lords and/or the custodes speaking in the Emperors name until such time as they acknowledge Guilliman.

If he comes stomping onto terra with a gaggle of eldar and a mysterious inquisitor in tow they are going to view him as the next vandire/horus in all but name, saints be damned - wouldn't be the first false one and she is listed as KIA...

2) Neither the sisterhood nor ecclesiarchy have any proper spacefaring or heavy warfare capabilities. At worst its outbreaks of civil violence similar to that which occurs during cult uprisings, but without the daemons or chaos marines.

It was interesting during the whole age of apostasy, and the events of the twin empires and so forth, a much more active time in Imperial history. But the 40k ecclesiarchy are a different beast - it'd be like the current pope declaring a new crusade.

He will undoubtedly be against oppression and corruption, which exists throughout the Imperium.

The more interesting (but unlikely) way ahead would be Guilliman moving to re-establish himself as total dictator of the Imperium and someone (Celestine perhaps) making him realise that this is all his fault to begin with - he created the high lords to vie for his attention while he called all the shots, and then got himself cut down leaving all these competing yes-men to hold station for thousands of years, stagnation and corruption born of a system that was built to achieve nothing without his personal go-ahead.

Combined of course with the Emperor giving the thumbs up to the whole god thing in his own way...

Guilliman "The Emperor is not a god, disband the sororitas!"

Sororitas "The Emperor was ok with it at the time"

Templar (holds up banner) "Can confirm, was there"

Custodes "Can confirm, was there"

Cawl "Can confirm, was there"

(withered old high lord holds up his hand in support in the background) "me too"

Greyfax "Damnit... yes, was there too"

(entire eldar contingent start mumbling)

Guilliman "... well :cuss."

[WarriorFish]

Sisters are one of the less varied Imperial factions, there's still scope for it of course but you'd not find the divergence you see elsewhere easily so I don't see them splitting in any major way. The Sisters would likely have no direct problem with Guilliman, equally I don't think Guilliman will mind the Sisters. Though the Imperial faith would be something he'd probably have issue with but that's not an exclusive thing to the Sisterhood (just taken to the next level). He would certainly realise how important it is so I doubt he'd make any movements against it. Other than perhaps moving to limit the Ecclesiarchy's control along with the other High Lords who don't always have the Imperium's benefit in mind...

Don't forget that as a Primarch Guilliman is more than literal head and shoulders above everyone else. Plus amongst the Primarchs he stood out as an administrator without peer, so he'd very much know the difference between what he may personally think is right and what is right for the Imperium and Mankind. Arguably he has more authority to be in charge than anyone else, being former commander and of course the son of the Emperor Himself!

He'd likely be too busy trying to stick things back together again I'd say, so for all he could change things I'm not sure he'd get the chance. You don't redesigning your castle when it's currently under siege after all

[Servant of Dante]

I don't really want to do a longer post right now, but I have a thing for terminology.

 

Where are you getting the title "Abbess Prioress" I have never seen that before. As far as I'm aware her title is just "Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas"

 

And what is a Canoness General? Can you point me to the printed source of these terms (i.e. Not Lexicanum or the 40K wiki)?

 

And the 2E codex is quite clear that the Convent Prioris is run by a Prioress, but yes, the Abbess generally stays on Terra.

 

Remember that at first after then Reign of Blood there was no Abbess. It wasn't until the High Lords forced the Canonesses to pick a single leader that there was one.

[Shifte]

@A.T.

 

On your first point:

 

It's important to note that Celestine seems to be backing Guilliman. Specifically, she gives him his 'Celestial Halo' which shows that he is 'blessed by the Emperor'. I did a big preamble before my post to say that the context of this situation is in the circumstances that the Imperium actually does have a split. The whole discussion is about if that happens. So the thread isn't really about whether or not that is likely; more how the Sisters would react if it happened.

 

I agree with your point about Guilliman arriving with xenos and looking to shake things up/change the statu quo, and how the High Lords (and other marine chapters, organisations, etc) might resist with hostility. That's a given and is why this whole thing came to mind for me. Given that, and given Celestine seems to be backing Guilliman, as stated above, it seems that in such circumstances as an Imperial split between Guilliman and the current High Lords, the Sisterhood would be forced to choose a side.

 

On your second point:

 

The Eccliesiarchy has some transport craft, and even some warships, but it's similar to the Battle Conclave you get on the tabletop. If you read their lore, they are closely monitored to make sure they don't break the spirit of the Decree Passive. The Eccliesiarchy doesn't really have much of a naval capacity, at all, but it can transport its people around certainly - though for anything serious it would petition the Imperial Navy. However I'm not sure that this is relevant because if the Eccliesiarchy split between a Guilliman-led faction and a High Lord-led faction then both of those factions would presumably offer naval support as they do now.

 

I'm not suggesting that a split in the Eccliesiarchy would be all that's going on in this wild scenario. This is just speculation about what could happen if there is an Imperial civil war (or split/cold war) as some have been speculating about on other sites/forums/reddit. The Imperium-Splits scenario is very unlikely to happen or to come close to happening imo. I'm just intrigued by what would become of the Sororitas in such a scenario and I don't think the answer would be as simple as 'they are all of one mind'.

 

@WarriorFish

 

I don't think Guilliman will be that hostile to the Imperial Creed/Eccliesiarchy either. I do think the Sisters are more varied than you give them credit for though! Think of all the different Order types (Militant, Hospitaller, Dialogus, Famulous, etc), religious archetypes and Orders majoris (ferocious Bloody Rose vs. the more reserved Sacred Rose). Even within OML we see similar clashes in the novels. It's interesting to me and I hope they expand on that sort of thing one day.

[Shifte]

@Dante

 

1) Abbess Sanctorum is from Codex Imperialis 1993. I think that lore has since been superceded in truth, but it was the old title for the leader of the Sisterhood. Back then the lore was that she led from Ophelia, so it makes more sense.

 

2) I have no idea what the Canoness General is, but that is word for word from one of the Dark Heresy books. Either the main rulebook, Blood of Martyrs or the Inquisitor's Handbook. I can try to find it later on if you'd like a specific citation. Dark Heresy was published by Black Industries (a wing of Black Library) and later licensed to FFG, so I consider it canon. Especially since so much WFRP ended up in the End Times (including incredibly obscure lore like Vasanesh...). My main point there was that the Convent Prioris intervening in the area seems to annoy the Convent Sanctorum Sisters who are there.

 

3) Agreed, which is why I made those points re: it being the seat of Imperial power. Also I agree that it is run by a Prioress - I don't trust 40k Wiki either I don't think there is a source for their assertions.

 

4) Yep.

[WarriorFish]

No, I meant ideologically etc - their adherence to the Imperial Cult is what binds them so they're very unlikely to have a schism as they will largely approach things in an identical manner.

[Shifte]

Agreed. I just think that -if- you get a situation of Saint Celestine and the Eccliesiarch backing two different sides in a civil war, you've got the makings of a schism. They might just try to play peacemakers, but it's 40k so... >_>

 

I know I keep saying this, but it's important to make sure everyone understands. I don't think that this whole scenario will actually play out. I just think that IF they are going to split the Imperium (in the lore, not the tabletop, which is what some people seem to think will happen) then there are only a few ways in which they could justify also having Sisters on each side. The Saint and the Eccliesiarch ending up on different sides is one of them, to me.

 

I'm also reading quite a lot into Celestine gifting Guilliman his halo to show that he is "blessed" by the Emperor. That could be inconsequenctial. If he acts up she could clearly change her mind on him or disagree with any potential plans he has in future.

 

I think Guilliman is a lot more sensible than the BOLS article on a similar subject suggested. I don't think he'll hate the Eccliesiarchy inherently - though he might want to make the Imperium in general 'fairer'. The guy accepted the Mechanicum, which is as religious as the Ministorum is.

[Jacinda]

I saw the Spoiler tag and was like \o/  or \m/ >.< \m/

but it just more speculation ...

 

-.-

[Shifte]

Look at the thread title, haha. It's literally called 'Future Lore Speculation'! XD

 

Spoiler tag was because we're talking about books that haven't been released yet, with some of the revelations. I think it's better to be safe than sorry! :P

[Servant of Dante]

Cool! I'd like to see where Canoness General comes from. And yeah the old fluff had the Convent on Ophelia IV :D I'll have to check it out since I want to be familiar with all of it!

 

As for the DH stuff, I accept it if it doesn't contradict the codices (or some key part of my headcanon :P) for example they have waaaay to many Sisters in one sector from way too many Orders for my tastes. But I still want to see what the term meant.

[Shifte]

Headcanon is the best canon. :D

[Jacinda]

Look at the thread title, haha. It's literally called 'Future Lore Speculation'! XD

Spoiler tag was because we're talking about books that haven't been released yet, with some of the revelations. I think it's better to be safe than sorry!

I kno. I'z just being silly

[Shifte]

*Launches Exterminatus with maximum prejudice*

 

Not in Guilliman's Imperium!

[Servant of Dante]

You know, I probably spoke too strongly in my first post. I'm looking through the Codex Imperialis right now. I really want to be familiar with all the Sisters fluff, up through Codex:Witch Hunters especially. It's tricky since I've only been playing 40k for 3 years, so sometimes I don't even know what is out there, though I've done a bit of digging.

 

I'm always interested in hearing stuff about Sisters I haven't before, though I have no compunction about throwing out anything that isn't from a codex, and really the only book I consider more or less sacrosanct is the 2E codex, followed by the Liber Sororitas and Codex: Witch Hunters, but that's just how I build my headcanon. After that it's all about whether the info contradicts one of those 3 sources or is contrary to the image of Sisters I have in my head.

 

Yeah, the Sanctorum was originally on Terra, and the Prioris was on Ophelia IV

 

Thanks! :D It'd be great if you could find where the Canoness General is mentioned too (though I could look for myself. I have the IH and DH1E and I think I have a PDF of BoM somewhere . . .)

[Shifte]

Lol, you won't believe this -

The Sanctorum (Famulous) Canoness on that world is called Canoness Goneril. The text is heavily stylised. I'm going to look up the specific bit about her being annoyed at Rhiannon's deployment from the Prioris, but that made me laugh. I'm fairly certain I've misread Goneril as General!

[Servant of Dante]

Lol, you won't believe this -

The Sanctorum (Famulous) Canoness on that world is called Canoness Goneril. The text is heavily stylised. I'm going to look up the specific bit about her being annoyed at Rhiannon's deployment from the Prioris, but that made me laugh. I'm fairly certain I've misread Goneril as General!

wait, the Canoness of which Order Famulous? and I'm missing the joke. Why is it funny?

[Shifte]

I misread Goneril as General. So, her name is Goneril. But Canoness General sounds like a rank. It made me laugh, at least. ;)

[Servant of Dante]

I misread Goneril as General. So, her name is Goneril. But Canoness General sounds like a rank. It made me laugh, at least.

OK :D Thanks! :)