Apostle of the 30th Host Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Two Legions; Two Army Lists; Help me decide which one should come after my Word Bearers... Note: Not designed to be competitive - focus on fluff (as best as I know for these Legions anyway) and units I find fun. Option 1: Thousand Sons: Chosen Duty Rite of War (2500 Points) Legion Centurion – 140 (Delegatus, Mastery Level 1, Artificer Armour, Master Crafted Force Weapon, Melta Bombs, Refractor Field, Arcane Litanies) + Corvidae Cult Joins Tactical Support Squad Legion Centurion – 170 / 310 (Librarian, Mastery Level 2, Cataphractii Terminator Armour, Asphyx Shells, Arcane Litanies) + Athanean Cult Joins Sekhmet Osiron Dreadnought – 245 / 555 (Kheres Assault Cannon, Extra Armour) Sekhmet Terminators (5) – 280 / 835 (Cataphractii Terminator Armour, 5 Combi-Weapons) + Raptora Cult Apothecarion Detachment (2) – 120 / 955 (Artificer Armour, Augury Scanners) + Athanean Cult One in each Veteran Tactical Squad Legion Veteran Tactical Squad (10) – 335 / 1290 (Brotherhood of Psykers: Mastery Level 1, Artificer Armour, 2 Plasma Guns, 8 Combi-Plasmas, Asphyx Shells, Vexilla) + Corvidae Cult Legion Veteran Tactical Squad (10) – 335 / 1625 (Brotherhood of Psykers: Mastery Level 1, Artificer Armour, 2 Plasma Guns, 8 Combi-Plasmas, Asphyx Shells, Vexilla) + Corvidae Cult Legion Tactical Support Squad (10) – 235 / 1860 (Artificer Armour, Volkite Calivers) + Corvidae Cult Legion Javelin Attack Speeder Squadron (2) – 150 / 2010 (2 Multi-Meltas, 2 Hunter-Killer Missiles Each) 2 Castellax-Achea – 270 / 2280 Sicaran Venator – 220 / 2500 (Armoured Ceramite and Auxiliary Drive) Option 2: Space Wolves: (2500 Points) Legion Praetor – 162 (Cataphractii Terminator Armour, Combi-Plasma, Paragon Blade) Joins Varagyr Terminators Speaker of the Dead – 137 / 299 (Cataphractii Terminator Armour, Combi-Plasma, Frost Claw) Joins Varagyr Terminators Caster of Runes – 165 / 464 (Mastery Level 2, Aether-Rune Armour, Volkite Charger) Joins Tactical Support Squad Grey Slayer Pack (15) – 235 / 699 (Artificer Armour, Bolters, Frost Weapon, Melta Bombs, Vexilla) Grey Slayer Pack (15) – 235 / 934 (Artificer Armour, Bolters, Frost Weapon, Melta Bombs, Vexilla) Legion Tactical Support Squad (10) – 210 / 1144 (Artificer Armour, Volkite Chargers, Additional Close Combat Weapons, Melta Bombs) Apothecarion Detachment (3) – 180 / 1324 (Artificer Armour, Augury Scanners) One in each Grey Slayer Pack and the last in the Tactical Support Varagyr Wolf Guard Terminator Squad (5) – 335 / 1659 (3 Combi-Plasmas, 2 Reaper Autocannons, 2 Chainfists) Legion Heavy Support Squad (10) – 340 / 1999 (Lascannons, Augury Scanner) Leviathan Pattern Siege Dreadnought – 340 / 2339 (Grav-Flux Bombard, 2 Twin-Linked Volkite Calivers, Phosphex Discharger, Leviathan Siege Drill with inbuilt Meltagun, Armoured Ceramite) Legion Seeker Squad – 160 / 2500 (Melta Bombs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 I don't really think choosing an army should just come down to comparing two army lists, considering there's so much else to consider-fluff, preferred paint scheme, the models you like more etc. The army lists are just the tactics component of the army, I can't imagine choosing an army without considering anything else. As far as the lists goes though, no rhinos for the TS veterans? With all combi plasma, they are going to be priority target number one, against any reasonable opponent not a single one of those veterans is gonna make it into rapid fire range while footslogging considering what a big threat they are. I guess you could technically outflank them to migrate that problem, but I'd still highly consider taking rhinos since that gives you an extra 6" of movement during the turn you come on the board. Easily the difference between getting in rapid fire range and not. Plus, with rending, shredding bolters, I think those guys hardly need a full assortment of combi plas. Maybe just 2-3 for dealing with priority targets. Normally I'd say the same for terminators, they can't footslogg well either, but since they can take telkensis powers and levitate it's not as big a deal. Still, transport is always preferable. For the Wolves list, I feel like you're not really taking advantage of the Grey Slayers weapon choices. You could load them all up with bolters and have the option to charge and shoot, which is pretty nifty, and/or you could throw in a few power weapons for better combat prowess. I'd say the power weapons are probably the priority over bolters. Also, those bigger Grey Slayer units are fine to footslogg, but the terminators again are a priority target that probably won't reach combat while footslogging. A transport for them would be far better, a dreadclaw probably being your most affordable option. The seekers certainly don't add a whole lot, you could drop them for a dreadclaw. As for which list to use, I have a clear bias considering I'm not a fan of wolves, but find sons pretty cool. That being said I think both lists are decent and will do fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apostle of the 30th Host Posted February 10, 2017 Author Share Posted February 10, 2017 I don't really think choosing an army should just come down to comparing two army lists, considering there's so much else to consider-fluff, preferred paint scheme, the models you like more etc. The army lists are just the tactics component of the army, I can't imagine choosing an army without considering anything else. As far as the lists goes though, no rhinos for the TS veterans? With all combi plasma, they are going to be priority target number one, against any reasonable opponent not a single one of those veterans is gonna make it into rapid fire range while footslogging considering what a big threat they are. I guess you could technically outflank them to migrate that problem, but I'd still highly consider taking rhinos since that gives you an extra 6" of movement during the turn you come on the board. Easily the difference between getting in rapid fire range and not. Plus, with rending, shredding bolters, I think those guys hardly need a full assortment of combi plas. Maybe just 2-3 for dealing with priority targets. Normally I'd say the same for terminators, they can't footslogg well either, but since they can take telkensis powers and levitate it's not as big a deal. Still, transport is always preferable. For the Wolves list, I feel like you're not really taking advantage of the Grey Slayers weapon choices. You could load them all up with bolters and have the option to charge and shoot, which is pretty nifty, and/or you could throw in a few power weapons for better combat prowess. I'd say the power weapons are probably the priority over bolters. Also, those bigger Grey Slayer units are fine to footslogg, but the terminators again are a priority target that probably won't reach combat while footslogging. A transport for them would be far better, a dreadclaw probably being your most affordable option. The seekers certainly don't add a whole lot, you could drop them for a dreadclaw. As for which list to use, I have a clear bias considering I'm not a fan of wolves, but find sons pretty cool. That being said I think both lists are decent and will do fine. Thank you for your reply. I totally agree with you that choosing an army should be more than just about the lists. There is a lot more thought going into it than that, but this just helps with a portion of the process that I am least familiar with - these are new armies, with new rules and units that I am unfamiliar with. I'll probably make a complementary thread in the general 30k section to help with the rest. Thousand Sons: To be honest, I have never really been a fan of Rhinos (or transports in general) if I am honest. Whilst I can see their use and value, I have found it hard to get past by bias against them and so tend to shy away from them. I would agree with you on the number of Combi-Weapons though. I forgot about Rending on the 'Sniper Vets' and so in truth, combined with Shred, there is probably no need for any of them beyond the 2 Plasma Guns per unit. That would free up enough points for a small squad of Seekers with their AP2 ammo who can do the same job but without the 1-use cap. As you said, plan for the Terminators (In theory) is Levitate between cover. Space Wolves: Grey Slayers - I really saw them as a more aggressive Tactical Squad with their shoot and charge ability, and assumed that Bolters would be a better all-round choice as they are not then limited to combat. But mixing a few Power Weapons or Fists into the squad seems like a good idea for when they reach combat. How would 10 Bolters and 4 Power Weapons (or 2 Power Weapons and 2 Power Fists) plus the Huscarls Frost Weapon do? That keeps the utility of the Bolters while mixing in some better AP weapons. In all fairness, the Seekers were just there to make up the last few points (although I do like the unit, but I agree it doesn't add much to the list in this case). Never used a Dreadclaw before so I'll have to look into that. Thanks again for your comments. In truth, my bias was always towards the Thousand Sons too (I never liked 40k Wolves), but seeing the 30k rules and reading a bit more around this area has changed my mind somewhat. I think it is currently 60:40 in favour of the Sons, but my first 30k army is already red (Word Bearers) and is yet to be finished so I'm not sure if I want another red army after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 I feel you on not wanting another red army, I play word bearers in 40k so I felt like I needed a change in color for 30k. Can't say I understand your rhino bias. Sure they are basically made of paper, but they are nice and cheap transports, and 3-4 of them on the board plus your heavier vehicles means many of them will survive to get your infantry into rapid fire range where they are most effective. Plus every turn a veteran unit spends in a rhino is one less turn being bombarded by blast templates that will make short work of them Yeah so with the combi weapons gone, you'll have the pts left for extra toys. I'd think you'd be better of with anti armor though, maybe you could grab a third speeder. As for the space wolves list, I don't think you even need a 50/50 ratio of power weapons to normal bolter troops. Three should probably do just fine. As you said the nice thing is with grey slayers is that with bolters they are a bit more versatile, so I wouldn't invest too many pts in power weapons. Three will give them an advantage over most other normal troops as long as it's not a good assault unit. Dreadclaw is pretty handy for deep striking terminators so I'd definetly invest in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 No one has both Thousand Sons and Space Wolves on their to do list for "fluff reasons"! Pick a side! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varyn Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 They're both pretty overpowered, so everyone should be prepared for wolfy/wizardy cheese! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgascoine011 Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Dont know about the space wolves list, but for your Thousand Sons: Vet Squads have combi-bolters, not combi-weapons and I am pretty sure they cant take combi-weapons. So no 8 Combi-plasmas. Also both vet squads should be in rhinos. For 35 points giving them mobility and survivability is just great The tactical support squad is completely pointless and a waste of points. Drop them and get your terminators up to 10 men The terminators should be at 10 guys, and if you want combi-plasmas then take it on these, although it might be a bit over-kill. With your vets in rhinos either drop the apothecaries or drop 1 vet from each squad. Drop both your HQ's You want feel no pain on your terminator squad, so you want to take either Arihman and a primus medicae or a ML3 Praetor rolling on biomancy (and hope for endurance, iron arm, enfeeble....or just take magnus). The only problem is then where to put Arihman? Hmm command squad for fluff reasons, or 10 Heavy Support squad with volkites for broken reasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionnaire of the VIIth Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Dont know about the space wolves list, but for your Thousand Sons: Vet Squads have combi-bolters, not combi-weapons and I am pretty sure they cant take combi-weapons. So no 8 Combi-plasmas.-snip- Legion Veteran Tactical Squad members may exchange their bolter for combi-weapons and do not get combi-bolters as an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgascoine011 Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Dont know about the space wolves list, but for your Thousand Sons: Vet Squads have combi-bolters, not combi-weapons and I am pretty sure they cant take combi-weapons. So no 8 Combi-plasmas.-snip- Legion Veteran Tactical Squad members may exchange their bolter for combi-weapons and do not get combi-bolters as an option. What book is that in? I am looking at book 1 and i cant see anything about changing bolters for combi-weapons Am I just blind or did they get an update? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionnaire of the VIIth Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Dont know about the space wolves list, but for your Thousand Sons: Vet Squads have combi-bolters, not combi-weapons and I am pretty sure they cant take combi-weapons. So no 8 Combi-plasmas.-snip- Legion Veteran Tactical Squad members may exchange their bolter for combi-weapons and do not get combi-bolters as an option. What book is that in? I am looking at book 1 and i cant see anything about changing bolters for combi-weapons Am I just blind or did they get an update? I'm using the most current copy of the red book called The Horus Heresy Legion Astartes: Age of Darkness Army List, it's page 28. I've got the digital copy http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/hh-cod-sup/age-of-darkness-army-list-tablet.html Forgeworld link is https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/The-Horus-heresy-legiones-Astartes-Age-of-Darkness-Army-List Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Polo Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 What book is that in? I am looking at book 1 and i cant see anything about changing bolters for combi-weapons Am I just blind or did they get an update? You are way behind the times and multiple units have been adjusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apostle of the 30th Host Posted February 12, 2017 Author Share Posted February 12, 2017 @Lord Asvaldir - Well technically Thosand Sons would be my 3rd Red Army as I started with a 40k Word Bearers Army (which is now on hold in case there are new models in the next year), then branched into 30k Word Bearers as they are my favourite faction in both universes. But these two armies play very similarly; both are infantry heavy (15+ Squad Sizes), with elites and heavy support in support. This is why I am torn, on the one hand I have Thousand Sons who are something completely different to what I am used to in playstyle and fluff with a smaller, more elite ranged and Psyker heavy army, but they are the same colour. Whilst on the other hand, the Wolves are very much the same as my Word Bearers being large squads of infantry that are slightly better suited to melee, but they are a different colour and style to anything I have ever collected before. You are quite right about Transports, but I just cannot get into them: they are boring to paint, expensive £'s wise for what they are (I could buy another squad for similar money), and I think I am used to playing smaller games where I am only just able to fit in everything I want, meaning 100 points or so worth of Rhinos for all my squads is taking away something else I would rather have. I think that's part of what has kept the Word Bearers as my favourite army: I can build lists that are very infantry heavy, with big squads that both suit my style of play and the fluff. Cutting the Combi-Plasmas would give me enough points for a third Apothecary and a third Speeder (or something else - again this is more of a monetary hesitance as they do cost a lot: 2 is a good investment, 3 is more of a luxury). That makes a lot of sense with the Grey Slayers too. In a 15-man squad 3 can be hidden in there easily for a nice surprise in melee. Any suggestions on a Rite of War for the Wolves? I am kind of stuck here to be honest as due to the Grey Slayers rule there are a lot of Rites that can't be taken, whilst the 2 Wolves Specific ones are quite restricting - can't take Varagyr with one and limited Heavy Support with the other. @Withershadow - You're quite right here and picking a side has turned out to be quite hard - I was always Thousand Sons in 40k, I do not like 40k Wolves at all, but they are very different in 30k (I prefer their colours, their fluff over the 40k stuff, they retain the Norse style that is somewhat lost in 40k) and it makes them much more appealing as an alternative to painting more red. It's the same reason I won't do 30k Ultramarines, I really don't like them in 40k, but I do like their 30k portrayal, but I'm a Word Bearers player so won't do Ultramarines haha! @jgascoine011 - As a few others have mentioned, taking Combi-Weapons is fine in the most updated version of the rules, however it has been suggested I drop these to save points anyway so that's a moot point there. Why would you say the Support Squad is a waste? 20 S6 Volkite shots sound great combined with Corvidae Cult buffs - they aren't moving anyway as they are Heavy Weapons. But I suppose a Volkite Heavy Support Squad would be more useful. 10-man Terminator Squads and Primus Medicae + Praetor/Magnus just seems a bit deathstar-y (or whatever they call it on here) and that has never been my style really. Everyone likes to win, but I much prefer competitive/balanced lists. That squad would cost almost half my points and whilst very powerful, put a squad of Sisters near it and it's worthless. As I mentioned above, Rhinos aren't my thing, and I would rather not choose between a second Special/Heavy Weapon and an Apothecary. I do like Ahriman though. He is a cool Character and something I would consider in 3000 Points games or one-offs as I do like Special Characters. But I tend to avoid them in my general lists though as I prefer making them my own if that makes sense. I have also been considering upgrading the Delegatus to a Praetor to lead the Sekhmet though. I wanted to keep the HQ's cheap to get more in but if they die it will damage the army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 I would ignore everything jg said because he's about 4 years behind the times. Think of Rhinos as insurance vs enemy ordnance, so your infantry actually has a chance to reach objectives and/or within effective range of the enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgascoine011 Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Didnt realise that vets could take combi-weapons now. Still, why would you bother, if you want combi-plasmas, take them on the terminators as they are half the cost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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