Have you read Thorpe's Legacy of Caliban trilogy?

[Reynolds]

*snip*

I know there were a couple more shorts in there that Gav wrote but from where I stand, our 30k lore has been fixed by AD-B, Dan Abnett and Alan Bligh...

Indeed. The first two novels were contradictory straight-on release with the present-established canon of the 40k codex, and the established 40k black library novels. Gav made the two co-align essentially, what came afterwards is not that essential to my argument, as that is more of a matter of taste, and I cannot argue with your taste, be it in my opinion right or not.

- I am not putting a stake in this matter deliberately more than this, but you have valid points in this. I meant my message as a retrospective message of what had happened back when this place was turned upside down because of the conflicting canon. This, Gav did fix.

 

 

 

I image also to stop him pulling another "he was waiting to see who won" move.

 

Gav may have 'fixed' the 30k/40k lore in your eyes, but remember that Gav is the one that broke it in the first place!

 

Every other author since then has been on firefighting duty to show that the Dark Angels are actually loyal, so much that they had to make up the entirety of the 'Thramas Crusade' to show which side the DA actually fought on in the heresy, not to mention the Imperium Secundus arc. 

 

This is old news, even when the Angels of Darkness came out in 2003, no use beating the dead horse. As Gav said it himself back when the first interview came out upon the release of that book, that Astelan's interrogation and his words, were always from the point of view of a Heretic. Nothing he said can, and could be taken as the truth, yet people choose to believe what they want to believe, even if it is contrary to the truth.

- The 30k novels proved Astelan to be a... pathological liar, with genuine psychopathic tendencies. I for one would not take his words with any value, under any circumstance.

 

- Yet still, people seem to take a true traitor's words at a face value... and use it as a weapon against that novel's writer, and the Dark Angels.

[rendingon1+]

Have to admit that from Angels of Caliban I liked Astelan the most. He is pretty chill, and his quotes were most entertaining in this bombastic knights/astartes enviroment. As for his credibility sure, anyone who quotes him as a reliable source is just not very bright or is Lion/Dark Angels hater and is trolling. 

BTW I also think that all cool things from Angels of Caliban that people like (Dreadwing, organization, DA exclusive equipmnt) came from Alan Bligh hahaha.

[Stoic Raptor]

.

- What people hate about him, is how he is vague, not sometimes 100% exact in the details. 

 

No, personally, for me it's because he can't even keep his own details straight.  It's bad enough that he alleged that Sammael had to serve in the Deathwing to get into the Inner Circle (nonsense!), but then he had Telemenus in a battle with the Ravenwing while he was somewhere else entirely, and a guy that got killed at that battle fighting at the next one.

 

He can't even maintain his own continuity... how can he be trusted to set it for others?

[Xenith]

 

 

I image also to stop him pulling another "he was waiting to see who won" move.

 

Gav may have 'fixed' the 30k/40k lore in your eyes, but remember that Gav is the one that broke it in the first place!

 

Every other author since then has been on firefighting duty to show that the Dark Angels are actually loyal, so much that they had to make up the entirety of the 'Thramas Crusade' to show which side the DA actually fought on in the heresy, not to mention the Imperium Secundus arc. 

 

This is old news, even when the Angels of Darkness came out in 2003, no use beating the dead horse. As Gav said it himself back when the first interview came out upon the release of that book, that Astelan's interrogation and his words, were always from the point of view of a Heretic. Nothing he said can, and could be taken as the truth, yet people choose to believe what they want to believe, even if it is contrary to the truth.

- The 30k novels proved Astelan to be a... pathological liar, with genuine psychopathic tendencies. I for one would not take his words with any value, under any circumstance.

 

- Yet still, people seem to take a true traitor's words at a face value... and use it as a weapon against that novel's writer, and the Dark Angels.

 

 

Gav's interview is also old news...so apparently no need to bring it up :) Also, not everyone reads the interviews.

 

Yes...he was a traitor, but yes, it was ambiguous. Gav had to write the guy into a whole new series of books to assassinate his character to show the readers that Astelan cannot be trusted.

 

Personally I liked the idea that the 40k DA may have been the actual traitors, or had an even shadier past. It gave them an 'edge', and could have allowed them to be playing both side off against one another. Instead everyone backpedals frantically for a while and has to come up with a new 'edge' for them.

[rendingon1+]

Personally I liked the idea that the 40k DA may have been the actual traitors, or had an even shadier past. It gave them an 'edge', and could have allowed them to be playing both side off against one another. Instead everyone backpedals frantically for a while and has to come up with a new 'edge' for them.

 

Not arguing with you brother, but I always wondered why some people claim that DA might be traitors? Of course we're talking 40k green DA not Fallen, right?

[Xenith]

 

Personally I liked the idea that the 40k DA may have been the actual traitors, or had an even shadier past. It gave them an 'edge', and could have allowed them to be playing both side off against one another. Instead everyone backpedals frantically for a while and has to come up with a new 'edge' for them.

Not arguing with you brother, but I always wondered why some people claim that DA might be traitors? Of course we're talking 40k green DA not Fallen, right?

 

 

If you read "Angels of Darkness by Gav Thorpe

 

 

A Fallen, Astelan, claims the Lion did nothing during the heresy because "he was waiting to see who won".

 

 

At the time, there was zero information in the fluff about exactly what the DA had been up to during the heresy, making it seem plausible. 

 

This led to the belief (speculation) that the DA under the Lion were mostly self serving, and not so loyal to the Emperor, and that the "Fallen" were actually the loyal ones. This was exacerbated by Cypher the 'Fallen' who seemed to be helping the Imperium etc. The 40K DA actively hunted the 'Fallen' who were actually loyalists, to hide the fact that the bulk of the DA legion had actually not sided with the Emperor during the heresy.

 

In my opinion, this was awesome, and gave the DA a whole new lease of life. Retconning this has, also in my opinion, made them into bland ultramarine wannabe's, who get given the runaround by a psychopath. Abnett almost made them cool is how the Lion responded to finding out about Imperium Secundus (drop assault in prep, showing the Lion stone cold pragmatic, and would have butchered the UM ina surprise attack...kind of like Lorgar), but then Gav got control of them again. 

 

Since then GW has been doing all they can to have the DA doing stuff during the heresy to explain why they were absent from Terra, and, according to Reynolds, Thorpe has been character assassinating Astelan to make him seem as untrustworthy as possible to confirm he was lying, or at least, very mistaken.

 

</opinionrant>

[Brother Sergeant Luther]

Astelan has always been untrustworthy, his position as a Fallen is the first evidence of this. From the sounds of it though you havent read the books yourself and are basing your opinion from one book. The problem with that is the one book isn't a stand alone story and is part of a series in which Astelan and his plans are revealed.

Why you may think they are making up stuff to make it look like the DA are doing something, what they are actually doing is adding detail to a period that was only ever vaguely covered. I mean seriously you think that both sides wouldnt notice an entire legion sitting out not doing anything during this entire turbulent time? It was also only "whispered" and "hinted" that they did nothing, it is never confirmed that the DA did nothing at all.

[Xenith]

Nope. Angels of darkness was definitely a stand alone story when it was released.

 

The fact that you call it part of a series confirms my statement that the rest were written to discredit Astelan.

 

Yes. When AoD was written, nobody knew what the DA were doing in the heresy. Nor the Ultramarines. Nothing was really fleshed out between istvaan and Terra. The Black Library had to invent the thramas crusade and Imperium secundus to show us what these legions were doing at the time.

 

My point is, and only ever has been, is that Gav Thorpe is responsible for the "DA are secretly traitors" meme. This is undeniable, and stems from Angels of Darkness.

 

I've also endured 'Purging of Kalidus', and have never been so bored reading a BL book.

[Brother Sergeant Luther]

Nope. Angels of darkness was definitely a stand alone story when it was released.

 

The fact that you call it part of a series confirms my statement that the rest were written to discredit Astelan.

 

Yes. When AoD was written, nobody knew what the DA were doing in the heresy. Nor the Ultramarines. Nothing was really fleshed out between istvaan and Terra. The Black Library had to invent the thramas crusade and Imperium secundus to show us what these legions were doing at the time.

 

My point is, and only ever has been, is that Gav Thorpe is responsible for the "DA are secretly traitors" meme. This is undeniable, and stems from Angels of Darkness.

 

I've also endured 'Purging of Kalidus', and have never been so bored reading a BL book.

You have no idea what you are talking about, in the second and third edition codexs both of which predate AoD it makes comments of rumours and legends that the DA sat on the fence so the "DA are traitor" comments had already begun, laying the blame on one man is ridiculous as is the comment that he wrote an entire series to discredit one character.

 

Also you habe no idea what gav had planned when he released AoD, can you say for certain that he wasn't already planning the legacy of caliban?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

The mythos DA were traitors does go back a lot before any Gav Thorpe books.

There was always inkling that DA had an obscure past and DA detractors came up with the "meme" that DA were traitors and Fallen were the good guys or other such theories, that were never substanciated for lack of evidence.

Now fence sitting, that is entirely Gav Thorpe creation. Despite several Codexes (or Codeci) describing a drak secret, none alludes that the Lion was actually waiting to see who would win the Heresy (the so called fence sitting).

That made the once unsubstantiated rumors taht DA were traitors, more substanciated because, again, DA detractors, believed the word of Astelan as gospel. Rough times indeed and we owe Gav for that. Thankfully Horus Heresy was expanded and now we have books to prove that there was never treason or fence sitting, quite the contrary and Astelan is nothing but a lunatic wih delusions of grandeur. 

[Brother dean]

 

I've also endured 'Purging of Kalidus', and have never been so bored reading a BL book.

 

As an aside.  The only book I have read* that was worse than "Purging" was "Battle for the Abyss".  Even "Deliverance" was better..

 

*To be fair.  I have not read ANY C. S. Goto....

[Brother Sergeant Luther]

 

 

*To be fair.  I have not read ANY C. S. Goto....

 

 

Be thankful of that 

[rendingon1+]

Is that all? An old made up fantheory that doesn't make sense? Disappointing.

I thought it was more about some misguided people thinking that DA leave their allies to die in every battle or something like that (not mentioning some BT haters and their Ophidium Gulf nonsense). So disappointing.

[Othniel's Blade]

The entire idea of the I Legion becoming secretly heretical (Luther notwithstanding); and hiding it for 10 millennia, then completely eschewing their only cover by abandoning their Imperial allies at a breath's notice seems wrong, and if not, really poor writing. After the first reading of Astelan's 'confession', combined with the meme's prevalence online, very nearly turned me off not only the faction, but the game. It was that boggling in a setting that had previously put in so much thriving background; and I really did not want to count my money wasted on an army I no longer enjoyed. The lore on our current leaders, namely Azrael and Ezekiel, and the nobility shown by most 

Cough* Asmodai* Cough

of the Dark Angels cannot resolve itself to such a lame insult.
The realisation that most of the meme is based on theory, and tying together a few instances centuries apart, the recognition of the true knightly ways of the Order carried by the I Legion and its successors to this day quite honestly saved the hobby for me. 

 

 

That being said, if a subfaction were to fall away due to Cypher's upcoming exploits, I'd be okay and interested in following a new level of complexity in our Chapter's history.

 

[Brother dean]

 

 

 

That being said, if a subfaction were to fall away due to Cypher's upcoming exploits, I'd be okay and interested in following a new level of complexity in our Chapter's history.

 

 

cough*Asmodai*cough

 

Yeah, he can go...

[Xenith]

 

You have no idea what you are talking about, in the second and third edition codexs both of which predate AoD it makes comments of rumours and legends that the DA sat on the fence so the "DA are traitor" comments had already begun, 

 

 

The mythos DA were traitors does go back a lot before any Gav Thorpe books.

 

<Citation needed>

 

I have Angels of Death and the 3rd Ed codex and read nothing but loyalty in them. What am I missing? 

 

The "Dark Secret" mentioned was that in the past, half the Legion (under Luther) had fallen to chaos. The loyalty of the Lion was never in question.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

You are missing nothing. :)

Like I explained in my former post, DA and the Lion were always loyal.

But, the DA are traitors is an old meme and DA are fence sitters is a also a meme, more recent than DA are traitors, and created by Gav Thorpe, when people misinterpreted AoD.

Cheers.

[Xenith]

I dunno, Luther over there says the fence sitting has been around since second ed.

 

But then he is called Luther, so is probably not to be trusted.

 

Cutting to the chase. Should I read these books? I've made my opinions on Gavs other DA work clear (weird as he writes eldar well...).

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Fence sitting was not around from second edition. I see nothing about it in both 2ND and 3Rd ed. Codex. Maybe he can provide pages and quotes to prove his point and we are all blind.

 

In any case, about the thread, the books are nice to read if you like to see characters from the codex come to life and if you want to see how some of the marine equipment works. The plot is not strong, but it does have its good moments. If you are a DA fan then you should definitely read. If not, better look for other books, IMHO.

[Master Ciaphas]

Well. I ordered "The Legacy of Caliban" yesterday. Once I get it, I will read it and give my opinion...and naturally update the Tales of the Unforgiven thread...

[Reynolds]

Opinions are opinions, henceforth an individual's opinion is not any less valid than someone else, regardless of what facts they choose to not to, or to believe.

- Everyone can believe what they want to believe, even if the truth is opposite of what a person chooses to believe.

 

- Nevertheless, I consign to Chaplain Lucifer's word, and I shall set my gaze upon the Angelus, and the future of our chapter, as it seems to be pushed once more to its limits.