Terminator siege assault squad

[Cadmus Tyro]

Hi all,

 

For a long time I have contemplated creating the equivalent of a terminator breacher squad. Terminators with breaching shields seem like an awesome concept to me. I'm aware that the fists/angels/salamanders already have access to storm shields (or the equivilent) but the unit tends to be melee focused. I want to create something that has more of a shooting focus, whilst improving survivability.

 

I'm sorry if this idea has already been thought of (I'm sure I remember seeing some artwork from iron hands fanatic).

 

Here are my initial thoughts -

 

Heavy support slot - this will limit their use, standard terminators will still have a place

Standard terminator profile - perhaps have the option of using legion specific terminator armour.

 

Wargear:

Boarding shield - adapt the entry to give +1 invulnerable, and if in base contact with another squad member may re-roll failed armour/invulnerable saves. As well as the bonus for defensive grenades.

(Or - re-rolls to armour saves as standard and +1 toughness when in base contact)

Volkite charger - instead of the standard combi-bolter.

No access to power weapon

 

Unit upgrades:

All members may exchange their volkite chargers for flamers - free

All members may exchange their volkite chargers for plasma or melta guns - 15ppm

One in five may exchange their volkite charger for a chainfist or thunder hammer +10ppm

The sergeant may take a single breaching charge 10pts

 

Unit special rules:

Stubborn, LA, implacable advance.

 

Dedicated transport:

Landraider proteus/phobos/spartan

 

Points costing is the difficult one, the unit trades close combat punch for long range firepower and survivability. So I'm thinking somewhere in the region of 200-225 for 5 members.

 

So, what do you think? Is the boarding shield rule too powerful? Are they over/under costed? Does the unit as a concept work well?

 

Have at it!

 

Cadmus

[Dantay VI]

FW may cover it at some point as the Justaerin terminators used yhis tactic in the novel Vengeful Spirit.

[Cadmus Tyro]

FW may cover it at some point as the Justaerin terminators used yhis tactic in the novel Vengeful Spirit.

Haven't read that novel for a while, remind me of their weapon loadout? How do the rules ideas sit with you?

[Lord Asvaldir]

In my opinion, the idea of a specialized close quarters assault terminator unit seems a bit redundant to me considering that that's exactly what terminator armor was developed for in the first place-void combat assault actions and close quarters heavy fighting. They don't need to get shields just to make them specialized for a siege assault role, that's what terminator armor is already for. 

 

As far as the rules go, reroll saves while having a 2+, 3++ save sounds a bit too tough. I'd just say give them a toughness and invul save boost for using shields. As for weapons, volkite/flamers/melta would definetly be their weapon preferences, though I wouldn't give them access to plasma. Maybe also add that one in five can take a multi melta or heavy flamer? 

[Dantay VI]

If i recall they had combi bolters and massive breacher style shields.

I would imagine that officers carried a ccw of some sort though which they could swith yhe gun for when things got up close and personal

Rules seem fair enough but i am not really a rules guy.

[Cadmus Tyro]

In my opinion, the idea of a specialized close quarters assault terminator unit seems a bit redundant to me considering that that's exactly what terminator armor was developed for in the first place-void combat assault actions and close quarters heavy fighting. They don't need to get shields just to make them specialized for a siege assault role, that's what terminator armor is already for. 

 

As far as the rules go, reroll saves while having a 2+, 3++ save sounds a bit too tough. I'd just say give them a toughness and invul save boost for using shields. As for weapons, volkite/flamers/melta would definetly be their weapon preferences, though I wouldn't give them access to plasma. Maybe also add that one in five can take a multi melta or heavy flamer?

 

Fair point, I suppose there are even environments that even TDA needs the addition of a huge shield, especially in the context of legion vs legion warfare. Perhaps just re-rolls to armour saves and +1 invulnerable save, that improves survivability to small arms fire exponentially but it doesn't grant so much survivability to low AP weapons?

 

The heavy weapons seem a little redundant, there are only marginal benefits when compared to their special weapon equivalent.

 

If i recall they had combi bolters and massive breacher style shields.

I would imagine that officers carried a ccw of some sort though which they could swith yhe gun for when things got up close and personalRules seem fair enough but i am not really a rules guy.

Cool. So are shields portrayed as being bigger than the standard breacher shield? Perhaps the sergeant should be able to swap out for a power weapon, my only thought with that is that it may detract from the shooting focus of the unit?

[Cadmus Tyro]

I'm not usually a fan of bitspudlo stuff, how would a squad of gorgon terminators look wielding these?:

 

https://hexy-shop.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/BitsPudlo-tarcze-3-800x800.jpg

[Black Cohort]

1 in 5 terminators being able to take a heavy weapon is kind of standard for all terminator squads.

 

If you are giving a reroll to armour saves that is all the shield should do in my opinion.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah as Cohort pointed out heavy weapons are pretty standard for terminators, don't see why siege terminators would be any different. 

 

Reroll armor and not the invul seems more balanced to me. 

[Jarkaira]

Rerolling armor and invusaves is insane. Have you calculated what it actually means?

 

Instead of 4/6x3/6x1/6 it becomes 4/6x3/6x1/6-1/6x1/6 for bolter roubd to be able to cause a wound.

 

I would rather let them be +1T when in base to base contact with atleast one other friendly guy with the same stuff. That would give 4/6x2/6x1/6 possibility for a bolter round. It would also adjust their instant death threshold.

 

Problem with changing rules or doing new units is that you shouldn't just blindly pick out rules which sound cool as instead you should always check what it means to change a rule or do an unit with said statline, gear and usr set.

[Jarkaira]

Also it doesn't make any sense at all to use testudo formation without advancing forward. Fire support units don't rely on huge shields to be more survivable as those are more for fights within close proximity to enemy.

 

If you want them to be long range fire support unit then just add something like better cover saves or a void shield generator instead of huge shields.

 

If you want them to be a close range fire support unit then go for the shields and increase their survivability modestly by increasing toughness instead of re trolling armor saves.

 

Also one good option for close quarters heavy fire support unit would be giving them salvo profile for every weapon. Like culverin becoming Salvo 4/6 and so on.

[Xenith]

Also it doesn't make any sense at all to use testudo formation without advancing forward. Fire support units don't rely on huge shields to be more survivable as those are more for fights within close proximity to enemy.

 

Let me tell you about the pavise :)

[Jarkaira]

Should have added long range in the first paragraph to more deviate the roles of close range fire support and fire support.

 

Pavaises work fine as close range fire support roles as I said. Crossbows were in a close(or middle) range fire support role and operated in a range in which they could be targeted by enemy fire support and in which they needed to operate in a tight formations.

 

Long range fire support doesn't need pavaises as they are hardly ever in a range of efficient counter fire. They have more loose formations because they can due the fact they are not in the middle of battle and therefore saturating fire won't do much against them and should be directed to more tight formation units.

[Cadmus Tyro]

Rerolling armor and invusaves is insane. Have you calculated what it actually means?

Instead of 4/6x3/6x1/6 it becomes 4/6x3/6x1/6-1/6x1/6 for bolter roubd to be able to cause a wound.

I would rather let them be +1T when in base to base contact with atleast one other friendly guy with the same stuff. That would give 4/6x2/6x1/6 possibility for a bolter round. It would also adjust their instant death threshold.

Problem with changing rules or doing new units is that you shouldn't just blindly pick out rules which sound cool as instead you should always check what it means to change a rule or do an unit with said statline, gear and usr set.

The whole point of the topic was to discuss the idea, nothing has been created or set in stone, I merely wanted to start a conversation. I find your tone quite condescending.

 

I agree regarding the re-rolling of invulnerable saves, but re-rolling armour saves would give the squad durability that TDA should have to small arms fire as a standard. I did not envision the squad being long range fire support, again that role has already been filled, I was aiming for close fire support.

 

Agreed, one in five heavy weapons per terminator is a pretty standard idea, however the standard terminator weapons are adding very little to the build. For example, heavy flamers are adding +1 strength and AP 4 (in a world of unbequetus 3+ saves), would you pay points for that? The reaper auto-cannon and the plasma blaster have similar problems, they seem unnecessary considering you can all just take plasma guns.

[lokkorex]

doesn't storm shields already grant +1 invulnerable save?

If termie breaching shields also grant that, it kinda takes away from sallies and fists.

[Cadmus Tyro]

doesn't storm shields already grant +1 invulnerable save?

If termie breaching shields also grant that, it kinda takes away from sallies and fists.

Indeed they do, and boarding shields shouldn't surpass them either I suppose. + 1T would also affect the fists/iron hands. How about we tone it down to this:

 

Terminator siege mantlets -

In the confines of ship to ship boarding actions, even the defence afforded by tactical dreadnought armour can be found wanting.

 

Terminator siege mantlets were employed to improve the survivability of units exposed to such conditions.

 

Terminator siege mantlets provide the user with defensive grenades. In addition when in base contact with another model equipped with a siege mantlet you may re-roll failed armour saves.

 

Any thoughts? Feel free to play around with he fluff/rule wording.

 

Also, would making them a platform for graviton guns be a bad idea, perhaps that could be a 1:5!upgrade?

 

Cadmus

[Black Cohort]

Then why not give them some other heavy weapon options? A multi-melta would greatly improve armour hunting, a heavier volkite deals more wounds, a plasma cannon melts heavy infantry.

 

And as a Salamander, heavy flamers are awesome. When you force a lot of armour saves guys die.

[Jarkaira]

Why not give them something like grav fluid for heavy flamer :) That would make it essentially a toned down grav-gauntlet.

 

Grav Fluid:

Mixture of highly instable warp fluctuating particles which cause partial collapse of time and space wherever they are released from their secure canisters turning flesh and even ceramite into a pulp bloody of gore while highly disrupting sensitive machine spirits.

 

S:X AP:4 Assault 1, Template, Graviton Pulse, Haywire

[lokkorex]

 

doesn't storm shields already grant +1 invulnerable save?

If termie breaching shields also grant that, it kinda takes away from sallies and fists.

Indeed they do, and boarding shields shouldn't surpass them either I suppose. + 1T would also affect the fists/iron hands. How about we tone it down to this:

 

Terminator siege mantlets -

In the confines of ship to ship boarding actions, even the defence afforded by tactical dreadnought armour can be found wanting.

 

Terminator siege mantlets were employed to improve the survivability of units exposed to such conditions.

 

Terminator siege mantlets provide the user with defensive grenades. In addition when in base contact with another model equipped with a siege mantlet you may re-roll failed armour saves.

 

Any thoughts? Feel free to play around with he fluff/rule wording.

 

Also, would making them a platform for graviton guns be a bad idea, perhaps that could be a 1:5!upgrade?

 

Cadmus

 

love that, ties them more into boarding shields and puts some limitation on the re-roll.

this should balance it a bit too, since if mister plasma-deredeo shows up, you can kiss your armour goodbye.

do terminator armour count as hardened armour? i don't have my hh books at hand atm.

 

for weapon options i'd like:

-volkite calivers.

-combi-weapons.

-rotor cannons.

with 1 in 5:

-graviton gun.

-plasma blaster.

-multi-melta.

-heavy bolter? volkite culverin?

 

with power weapon options for the sarge, plus breaching charge.

-heavy flamer.

[Cadmus Tyro]

Hi all,

 

So I'm getting more excited about the prospect of building this unit, even though it may never see any use in game.

 

I've tried to take into consideration the previous points made. Take a look at the following and let me know what you think? One question I have, is the points cost a fair reflection? I think you are losing a power weapon but gaining some more defensive rules. 25poins over a standard terminator squad and moving them to heavy support seems fair to me?

 

 

Terminator breach assault squad

 

Tactical dreadnought armour, in all of its varieties, was developed for use within the legions as the spearhead to a frontal assault.

 

Even Terminator armour has its inherent weaknesses, and often a higher level of close fire support was required in a concentrated area, such as ship to ship boarding actions or to close or exploit breaches within fortifications.

 

As a result many of the legions, most notably the imperial fists iron hands and iron warriors, developed a further specialisation for the unit. When needed terminators were equipped with larger, more heavily armoured versions of the ubiquitous boarding shield employed by legion breacher squads. The additional armour plating afforded greater protection from incoming small arms fire, with little in the way of reduced mobility, thanks to the armours reinforced exoskeleton. When the shields were locked together in close formation it created a nigh impregnable barrier to all but the most fearsome weapons.

 

Terminator breach assault units were employed where the fighting was fiercest. Their additional armour and ranged weaponary helping to force the enemy back or to stall their advance.

 

A terminator breach assault squad may be selected as a heavy support choice for the legion crusade army list.

 

Profile: 200 points

 

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv

Terminator 4 4 4 4 1 4 2 8 2+

Sergeant 4 4 4 4 1 4 2 8 2+

 

Unit type: infantry

 

Unit composition:

4 terminators.

1 terminator sergeant.

 

Wargear:

Combi-bolter

Terminator siege Mantlet

Terminator armour (Tartaros or Cataphractii, if the primary detachment is using the legion astartes: iron hands rule then gorgon pattern terminator armour maybe taken).

 

Options:

The squad may include up to five additional terminators +35pts each

 

Any squad member may exchange their combi-bolter for one of the following:

Volkite charger - 5pts each

Power weapon - free

Power glove - 5 points each

Single lightning claw - 5 points each

Chainfist - 10 points each

Thunder hammer - 10 points each

 

Any squad member may exchange their combo-bolter for one of the following weapons. If this option is taken, all models (with the exception of the sergeant if desired) must be identically equiped:

Flamer - 5 points each

Volkite caliver - 5 points each

Plasma gun - 15 points each

Melta gun -15 points each

 

For every five models in the squad one member may exchange their combi-bolter for one of the following weapons. If they have not already exchanged the weapon:

Plasma blaster - 15 points each

Heavy flamer - 10 points each

Graviton gun - 15 points each

Multi-melta - 15 points each

 

The squad sergeant may take a single breaching charge - 10 points

 

Special rules:

Implacable advance (see LALCAL)

Legion astartes

 

Terminator Siege Mantlet:

In the confines of ship to ship boarding actions, even the defence afforded by tactical dreadnought armour can be found wanting.

 

Terminator siege mantlets were employed to improve the survivability of units exposed to such conditions.

 

Terminator siege mantlets provide the user with defensive grenades. In addition when in base contact with another model equipped with a siege mantlet you may re-roll failed armour saves.

 

Cadmus