DogWelder Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 So I was reading up on the major battles of the Horus Heresy and I came across something quite astounding. So, before the Battle of Calth, the Ultramarines Legion numbered 250,000 and the Word Bearers numbered 100,000. The battle of Calth is remarked to have been heavily in favor of the Word Bearers both in terms of the actual battle and the resulting casualty ratio. Ultramarines Strength at battle site: 185,000 marines 1,000,000 human soldiers of the Solar Auxilia Word Bearer Strength at battle site: 50,000 marines 500,000 human cultist soldiers. The Word Bearers had control of the massive Calth defence grid, a devastating initial attack, the element of complete surprise, the elite demonically-possessed marines known as the Gal Vorbak, half of their fleet and a never-ending horde of demons that could be summoned at will. This lead to them reapong a horrific toll on the Ultras with the casualties being: Ultramarines Casualties: 119,422 marines dead 28,392 marines rendered combat-incapable 500,000 human soldiers of the Solar Auxilia killed Word Bearer Casualties: All Word Bearers and human cultists on Calth killed Entire fleet at Calth destroyed including the flagship of Kor Phaeron, Infidus Imperator But get this, even with the Astartes kill ratio being greatly in favor of the Word Bearers (3:1), the total strength of both legions after the battle would be: Ultramarines Strength 100,000 marines Word Bearer Strength 50,000 marines So even with an incredibly devastating strike at the Ultramarines that had the Word Bearers killing 3 Ultras for every dead Word Bearer, the Ultramarines STILL outnumbered the Word Bearers, 2-1 in terms of Legion numbers. *ALL NUMBERS USED COME FROM HORUS HERSY BOOK 5: TEMPEST* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331006-the-insane-numerical-advantage-of-the-ultramarines/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 That is indeed the case and the numbers, if I am recalling them correctly, are also correct. So... to put it bluntly, what's your point? The Ultramarines were known for being numerous - they have done for quite a long time - and while Calth was devastating, it did not mortally cripple/destroy the Legion like the Word Bearers had hoped. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331006-the-insane-numerical-advantage-of-the-ultramarines/#findComment-4656428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugarlessllama Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 I guess that would explain how it was so much easier for the Ultramarines to break into so many different chapters at the end of the Heresy. If they numbers above are correct, that is 1,000 different 2nd Founding Chapters just from the Ultramarines alone. Holy cow! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331006-the-insane-numerical-advantage-of-the-ultramarines/#findComment-4656448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokkorex Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Hang on, didn't the word bearers start to massively recruit after lorgars visit to cadia, in anticipation of the heresy, putting them in the upper levels of the legions? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331006-the-insane-numerical-advantage-of-the-ultramarines/#findComment-4656453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogWelder Posted February 15, 2017 Author Share Posted February 15, 2017 That is indeed the case and the numbers, if I am recalling them correctly, are also correct. So... to put it bluntly, what's your point? The Ultramarines were known for being numerous - they have done for quite a long time - and while Calth was devastating, it did not mortally cripple/destroy the Legion like the Word Bearers had hoped. Its just very astounding tbh. Considering that the Raven Guard were said to be near extinction after losing 77,000 marines at Isstvan, its hard to believe a legion could take nearly twice those losses and still outnumber their enemies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331006-the-insane-numerical-advantage-of-the-ultramarines/#findComment-4656456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhorneHunter57x Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 *shrugs* Some of the Legions were more numerous than others, owing in large part to the stability of their gene-seed and their preferred Chapter tactics/philosophy. The Ultramarines were blessed with one of the most stable gene-seeds, if not the most, and Guilliman was a statesman and empire-builder, not just a crusader. Combine the two, and you get a Legion which would outnumber any other. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331006-the-insane-numerical-advantage-of-the-ultramarines/#findComment-4656505 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shandwen Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 I guess that would explain how it was so much easier for the Ultramarines to break into so many different chapters at the end of the Heresy. If they numbers above are correct, that is 1,000 different 2nd Founding Chapters just from the Ultramarines alone. Holy cow!Just remember that the heresy didn't end after Calth- they had a long bloody path from Calth to the end of the scouring. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331006-the-insane-numerical-advantage-of-the-ultramarines/#findComment-4656513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 At the point of the second founding the legion had been whittled down to just 25,000 or less marines. Still, at that time it was FAR more than any other chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331006-the-insane-numerical-advantage-of-the-ultramarines/#findComment-4656572 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daigo Cannon Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Iron warrior is the most stable gene seed. Ultramarine advantage over any other legion was that they recruit from all ultramar, not just 1 system or planet. This gives them advantage on the number of recruits to increase or refill ranks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331006-the-insane-numerical-advantage-of-the-ultramarines/#findComment-4657074 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dariokan Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 I'm not quite sure about that. I think I have read many times that it was the Ultramarines' gene pool which was the more stable, along with the Imperial Fists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331006-the-insane-numerical-advantage-of-the-ultramarines/#findComment-4657086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Ultramarines have the most stable and effective geneseed, with no problems or mutations after 10k years. They account for 60% of all Marines in the Imperium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331006-the-insane-numerical-advantage-of-the-ultramarines/#findComment-4657919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomMarine Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 Second most stable is the iron hands no mutations with rapid creation process but not used that often due to highlord fearing the IH ties to the ad mech Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331006-the-insane-numerical-advantage-of-the-ultramarines/#findComment-4658807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted February 17, 2017 Share Posted February 17, 2017 The Iron Warriors kinda went all corrupty chaos mutations after all... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331006-the-insane-numerical-advantage-of-the-ultramarines/#findComment-4659010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 You also got to look at Calth as the Legion purge of the Word Bearers. While to my knowledge there aren't any that sided with the Emperor like with the other Traitor Legions, there were a lot that couldn't let go of what happened at Monarchia so they were the ones sent to fight the Ultramarines, totally expecting them all to die in the process. The jihad-hu-ackbar-ITSATRAP with the starship crashing through the orbital docking ring and the scrapcode battle net hack/attack, the Ultras were pretty messed up. I agree the numbers are kind of...stupid. But looking at it as a Word Bearers purge it kind of makes sense, all the legions who purged were under strength by at least a third or more. Ultramarines had 500 worlds to recruit Ultramarines from, most other legions had...One maybe two. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331006-the-insane-numerical-advantage-of-the-ultramarines/#findComment-4660934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Ambiguity is a reoccurring theme in warhammer. Personally in a galaxy of 999 trillion people what's wrong with if each legion consisted of a million marines plus? It would of lended larger scope for battle and future skirmish possibilities. In the case of the battle for calth I consider it to be more like a pearl harbour event. The element of suprise and the military skill of the word bearers (which is still on par with the ultras) was nothing to be sniffed at. The sheer wrath wrought upon ultramarines would of been truly underhanded,cowardly and if nothing else scummy.....but still extremely effective. Cut of the enemies arms and they are defenseless. Problem is there were more arms than they thought. Guillimans legion was saved by its most defining trait. It's size, after all quantity is a quality in itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331006-the-insane-numerical-advantage-of-the-ultramarines/#findComment-4660942 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 Pearl Harbor on a planetary scale...Dang. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331006-the-insane-numerical-advantage-of-the-ultramarines/#findComment-4660949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
StraightSilver Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 There's also that "rumour" from one of the HH novels that the reason the Ultramarines Legion is so big is because they subsumed the marines from the 2nd and 11th Legions after their Primarchs were "removed from Imperial records". It's been debated that this was an "in" joke and because it was a passing comment by traitor legionaries and not mentioned since, and that it was just a disparaging comment and not backed up by any evidence.However I love this idea. What if the 2nd and 11th Legions were not wiped out alongside their Primarchs but were rolled into the 13th Legion (and 2+11 = 13). If Guilliman secretly knew that potentially a two thirds of his Legion's loyalties or behaviour might be suspect (although we never know what happened to their Primarchs) could that be why he was so stringent and why he started writing the Codex Astartes - to ensure his Legion keot itself disciplined?But anyway that's digression, I agree the Pearl Harbour comparison is a good one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331006-the-insane-numerical-advantage-of-the-ultramarines/#findComment-4662367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 The author himself said it isn't true so... Regarding the Word Bearers "purge", it wasn't actually true. They might have said it was true. They may even convince themselves of it. But it was hideous failure. 1) Lorgar was boiling over with anger and resentment towards Kor Phaeron. He states flatly it was a failure. 2) The Legion's 2nd in Command was sent along with heavy fleet units and Titans, all of which are not considered expendable to the extent of a purge. 3) the plan was to take the Ultramarines completely by surprise and wipe them out decisively. That required a military victory which by its definition meant the Word Bearers weren't there to die. Now, there are multiple objectives in play here. Wiping put the Ultramarines as a coherent Legion based fighting force was one and it failed. The other was setting the groundwork for the Ruinstorm, which succeeded but was not a decisive or significant victory for the Traitor War effort (Lorgar was to create the Ruinstorm which later was a solid success). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331006-the-insane-numerical-advantage-of-the-ultramarines/#findComment-4662675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 So delaying the Ultramarines and other small elements of the Shattered Legions via the Ruinstorm (from reinforcing during the Siege of Terra) wasn't the end goal? At least from Lorgar's perspective? Or was that a consolation prize to the ultimately failed invasion of Ultramar? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331006-the-insane-numerical-advantage-of-the-ultramarines/#findComment-4662693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Lorgar was the architect of the Ruinstorm. He spent considerable energies working on it. It almost failed because the Ultramarines themselves weren't destroyed like they were supposed to be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331006-the-insane-numerical-advantage-of-the-ultramarines/#findComment-4662728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.