Make Destroyer Squads Good

[rendingon1+]

1. Fleshbane/poison/rending on all shooting attacks to make bolt pistols usefull.

2. Unlimited phospex bomb attack simillar to this new, cool wolves axe unit. Not limited to sergeant.

3. void hardened armour

[Brother Aiwass]

That's how I'll FAQ them:
 

Wargear:

 

Two bolt pistols each
Chainsword or combat blade
Frag and krak grenades

Rad furnace

Banestrike Ammo

Hardened Void Armor

 

Options:

 

*First bullet point: replace point cost with +15 points each.

 

*Third bullet point: replace point cost with +25 points.

 

*Fourth bullet point, add the following options:

-Heavy Bolter and suspensor web..................... +20 points

-Lucifex..................................................................  +5 points

-Rad/irad cleanser................................................ +20 points

-Up to three Phosphex bombs............................ +10 points each

-Rotor cannon with bio-corrosive ammunition... +15 points

 

*Fifth bullet point, add the following options:

-Lucifex..................................................................  +5 points

[IronDrake28]

What's a Lucifex? Sorry for my ignorance. :P

 

Man though, if they got the ability to take Rotor Cannons with Bio-corrosive ammo...Mmm that would be amazingly cool.

[Brother Aiwass]

It's a Mechanicum (which is a shame)  pistol: S 2 AP 5, fleshbane, rad-phage.

[bluntblade]

What's a Lucifex? Sorry for my ignorance. :P

 

Man though, if they got the ability to take Rotor Cannons with Bio-corrosive ammo...Mmm that would be amazingly cool.

Mind if Raktra and I pinch that idea?

[Forward Assist]

Destroyers are an odd one. I have an image in my mind of a Dreadwing destroyer squad pelting an enemy with a mixture of rad and stasis missiles. The rad-poisoned survivors are caught in the effects of time distortion, their movements slowed to treacle as the Dreadwing implacably move amongst them and callously finished them off with their bolt pistols. Much grim, such darkness! But sadly not matched in the rules.

 

Perhaps if the number of heavy weapons were increased to 2 per 5 members? It'd give the squads more punch without being overpowering, perhaps?

[Raktra]

There needs to be something done. I'd be dead happy with them as-is if points were reduced overall (per-model, the jump packs etc). But if they're to stay as something other than Assault Squads with a tweest, then yeah, changes needed.

 

I don't quite agree with the ideas for rending put up here. Not for a case of it being overpowered, but it just doesn't sit right to me. Maybe let them have the hellfire rounds from 40k DWatch/Sternguard as their bolt pistol's ammo type, give them Gets Hot if a balance is needed.

 

Definitely in favour of giving them access to rad cleansers and the like (and in fact, I gave the Berserkers of Uran that option in a RoW). Not as much of a fan of the rad-furnace option, unless it's an option in place of a heavy weapon that someone could carry with them. The current models don't have a place for one, after all.

 

And seeing as I'm thumb-typing on my phone, on a bus, with a headache, I'mma stop writing before I puke.

[Mazryonh]

Destroyers struck me as a characterful but rather underpowered unit for the 30k era.  Even Techmarine Servitor Squads can take more Rad Missiles than a full-size Destroyer Squad can get, and the Rad Missiles used to be the Destroyers' biggest draw.  If you stick to just using standard Bolt Pistols for Destroyers, even Tactical Squads can outshoot them, and Hand Flamers/Volkite Serpentas for Destroyers do not improve the situation much.  Using Phosphex Bombs can be a suicidal move for the Destroyers since they have no protection against Phosphex (unless you're playing Death Guard). 

 

What I'd really like to see is Destroyers get some individual legion flavour, to become the real "last chancers" of each legion.  Can you imagine Blood Angels Destroyers being recruited from those almost completely lost to the Red Thirst, drinking blood in the middle of battle to gain combat bonuses, while tainting the land with radiological weaponry (making it Toughness-decreasing Dangerous Terrain) to render it much like their homeworld of Baal, which is a radioactive wasteland?  Or Iron Hands Destroyers who are more machine than even the Immortals, seeking only to find absolution in combat even if that means suicidally blowing up their cyborg bodies in a cloud of radiation?  Or Space Wolves Destroyers who are the only ones to bear prototype Helfrost weaponry and are even more lost to PTSD than even the Deathsworn? 

 

Kaedus Nex of the Raven Guard was the first Moritat and Destroyers are supposed to the "little brothers" to both him and generic Moritats, but he's still too far above them.  Letting Destroyers carry any kind of missile in their Rad Missile Launchers or even Grenade Launchers that can launch Rad, Frag, and Krak grenades would be a decent first step, as would giving them access to the Death Guard's Chem Munitions for Flamers.  Or even just a rule that gives basic Destroyers a form of Rending with their Bolt Pistols, if not unique ammunition.  The Alpha Legion's Relic weapon also shows a way for 30k forces to use biological weaponry that even Astartes on the receiving end can't handle, and making that available for Destroyers or Moritats would also be a good boost, as would giving Destroyers some form of Phosphex and Poison/Fleshbane protection. 

 

Of course, once the rules for the Dark Angels' Dreadwing units appear (and hopefully match the descriptions given in the novel Angels of Caliban), Destroyers from every other legion are going to look weak by comparison.  FW really needs to make Destroyer squads relevant again in the current 30k meta. 

[Charlo]

*Glances at Spacewold Deathsworn*

 

FW already made Destoryers better..... :o!

 

But yeah, as they are veterans they should be priced similarly and get the same type of gear (at least all with the option to replace pistols).

Jump packs should be 3pts each.

Adore the idea that Rad missiles just incur a plain -1T debuff when hit for the rest of the shooting phase, works exactly like the 'nades in assault then. This would make up for their cost and stats as, lets face it, Radphage is a shockingly awful rule.

 

I think other than that maybe poison 5+ on the bolt pistols would be nice. So anything tougher than 5, is still hurt fairly easily, but you aren't going around pwning all the MCs with wounds.

[Laughingman]

That's how I'll FAQ them:

 

Wargear:

 

Two bolt pistols each

Chainsword or combat blade

Frag and krak grenades

Rad furnace

Banestrike Ammo

Hardened Void Armor

 

Options:

 

*First bullet point: replace point cost with +15 points each.

 

*Third bullet point: replace point cost with +25 points.

 

*Fourth bullet point, add the following options:

-Heavy Bolter and suspensor web..................... +20 points

-Lucifex..................................................................  +5 points

-Rad/irad cleanser................................................ +20 points

-Up to three Phosphex bombs............................ +10 points each

-Rotor cannon with bio-corrosive ammunition... +15 points

 

*Fifth bullet point, add the following options:

-Lucifex..................................................................  +5 points

 

I image destroyer cadres using radiologically enhanced ammo in things like rotor cannons. Maybe some sort of mechanic could be added to the rotor cannon so it acts like the radium carbines that Skitarii vanguard use, additional wounds have to be saved on to wound rolls of a six.

Also adding grenades that have some sort of Psychotroke grenade like function to them would be entertaining in close combat.

 

Other ideas:

To simulate the horrific long term effect of bio/nano/rad weapons develop a mechanic for whereby if targeted unit survives it must  take a strength test, if they fail they roll on a table and face various serious debuffing effects, that effect them for rest of the game -2bs, -2ws, -2I, -1T, etc. 

[Laughingman]

More ideas to throw around, added some fluff for flavor

 

Destroyer Armor modifications: Specialized modifications made to existing armor to make more survivable to there own weapons debilitating effects

-Could allow rerolls against poisoned and fleshbane weapons?

 

Gamma projector: Terran weapon, courtesy of techno-barbarians, sends out a beam of gamma radiation, heavily used during Rangda xenocides to make sure the xeno you thought was dead, stayed dead.

 

-I image it as some sort of template or beam weapon (that ignores cover) that forces the targeted unit to take strength test against the previously mentioned table of debuffs. 

[Laughingman]

More ideas and fluff, from the laughing man, who wants feedback and critiquing

 

Nano-alchelm munitions: Terawatt clan devised weapons of unification based on technology recovered from vaults under the Caucasus, used Micro-machines to eat through armor and deliver alchelm ones to the organics inside. Mechanicum later objected to there continued creation as techno-heresy, an allegation the Terawatt clan denied.

 

Rules: Possibly a bolt or projectile delivered weapon, if the victim survives (and has an armor save)  for every successive turn they roll against the armor save, if they roll a six the effect wears off, if they are equal to or higher, they are fine, if they roll below, they take some sort of hit, that cannot be look out sir. Kind of like volkite weapons.

[Brother Aiwass]

I would keep stuff simple, without adding much of special rules or effects that can be complicated to remember in the fray.

[Laughingman]

True enough, my idea was to make them into a "debuffing unit" or "super vanguard" so  players would simply have a reason to take them in the elite slot over other really good units.

 

Otherwise the Destroyer Armor modifications might be worth recommending as well as the radiologically enhanced ammo,

[Marshal Loss]

Banestrike is legion specific ammunition for the SoH & AL (and isn't particularly useful anyway), don't take something from legions to give to a generic unit. Ammunition specifically developed by the AL to kill space marines in secret isn't so cool if the Destroyers were already using it.

[Laughingman]

More ideas:

 

Psychotropic grenade launcher: powerful weaponized drugs that induce panic, and overload the senses of its victims. Originally pioneered by early 8^th legion tech-marines, but shunned as cowardly by many others. It was intended to be deployed by ship to ground warhead, it was later adapted by destroyer cadres, to grenade launcher format.

 

Blast weapon, forces targeted unit to take a leadership test. Possibly with a minus D6 or D3 modifier? If failed you face some sort of debuff for a turn.

[Brother Aiwass]

More ideas:

 

Psychotropic grenade launcher: powerful weaponized drugs that induce panic, and overload the senses of its victims. Originally pioneered by early 8^th legion tech-marines, but shunned as cowardly by many others. It was intended to be deployed by ship to ground warhead, it was later adapted by destroyer cadres, to grenade launcher format.

 

Blast weapon, forces targeted unit to take a leadership test. Possibly with a minus D6 or D3 modifier? If failed you face some sort of debuff for a turn.

Maybe Morale Test rolling 3D6 picking the 2 highest?

[Slips]

 

More ideas:

 

Psychotropic grenade launcher: powerful weaponized drugs that induce panic, and overload the senses of its victims. Originally pioneered by early 8^th legion tech-marines, but shunned as cowardly by many others. It was intended to be deployed by ship to ground warhead, it was later adapted by destroyer cadres, to grenade launcher format.

 

Blast weapon, forces targeted unit to take a leadership test. Possibly with a minus D6 or D3 modifier? If failed you face some sort of debuff for a turn.

Maybe Morale Test rolling 3D6 picking the 2 highest?

 

Or just make it cause the Hallucination Psychic Power...but better...

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

I would like the destroyer squads to not really innovate, but rather use leftover weapons of the Old Night. They would be the necessary evil ready to use nerve gas and biological weapons against xenos or rebellious humans in situations where it made sense and they would also be a pragmatic way for the Imperium to get rid of their stockpile of these weapons that they clearly intended to phase out of general use (Vulkan was adamant about not using them and the Dark Angels were basically forbidden to tell anyone of what they possessed). Sure they could just shoot the stuff into the closest star, but why waste the destructive potential of these weapons that, after all, were already made?

[Laughingman]

Another idea…  I think that giving destroyers poisoned/flesh bane flamers should be avoided. It treads to closely too the army specific gear, like grave-warden chem-munitions and mechanicum irad-cleansers.

[Arendious]

What about an option to create a difficult/dangerous terrain "bubble" around the squad? 

 

Micro-grenade Auto-Launcher

  If the squad does not take jump packs, they may instead be equipped with backpack mounted auto launchers that sow miniature bio-chem munitions.

  The area within one inch (1) radius of the unit becomes dangerous terrain.  

[Leif Bearclaw]

Another idea…  I think that giving destroyers poisoned/flesh bane flamers should be avoided. It treads to closely too the army specific gear, like grave-warden chem-munitions and mechanicum irad-cleansers.

Why's that a major problem, as long as it's not a direct copy paste? The AdMech get so much unique shiny having to share a few similar style weapons with one Legion unit isn't exactly a tragedy for them. As for the DG, their Grave Wardens could still be better than generic destroyers, while still giving the latter a bit more 'deadly proscribed weapon' flavour (being Terminators, every man having a launcher, maybe destroyer launchers only fire once etc.). Done properly, good Destroyers shouldn't tread on Grave Warden's toes any more than Legion Terminators do the various unique TDA elites the Legions get.

 

Tbh, I don't really mind what they do to the Destroyers, but something is sorely needed. From breaking the last Luna Wolf strongpoint alongside Abbadon's Justarien at Istvaan III, the Black Cull's deployment to Tizca, and the surprise the Gal Vorbak got from the Nemesis Chapter at Calth, the fluff presents the Destroyer Cadres as something epic. A frightening, dangerous force for when the Legions hit the Godzilla threshold. They're one of my favourite things FW have introduced as part of the HH. Yet they're the posetr boys for underwhelming rules.

 

As the ultimate wishlist, I'd love to see a small, ancillary army list for them, rather than a single unit choice. A bunch of funky options, specialised weapons (think something like the Blackshield Marauder squad, WMD edition), retrofitted vehicles with phospex shells, rad beamers, chem throwers etc. The full arsenal that sells them as a unique element of the Legion's line of battle, rather than pistoleers with a toughness debuff.

[Laughingman]

Fair enough I concede the point, I just want to avoid making flesh-bane templates the only redeeming quality of destroyer cadres. It's why I've advocated for other game mechanics to make them powerful in a different way.

 

Other ideas

 

Rad-Sakers: Template weapons that cause strength tests, if failed targeted model take an auto-hit (AP3 maybe? depends on weapon upgrade cost?)

Blind projector: Blinding agent, in template form, causes blind tests with some sort of modifier?

[Brother Aiwass]

That's an awesome idea Leif, rad beamers. I love it.

 

 

 

 

18" S- AP - salvo1/1, beam, rad-phage, fleshbane, ignores cover

 

 

 

 

^_^

[Laughingman]

More ideas:

 

Blast template weapons that stick around for a couple turns, act as area denial weapons, forcing any infantry based unit that crosses the template to take a randomly determined characteristic test or face some negative consequence (much more interesting and entertaining then dangerous terrain tests).

 

Munitions or weapons with conversion beamer like mechanics (Gets stronger the farther away you go)