Characters appearing in different books - smaller universe?

[DukeLeto69]

I do sometimes wonder about the danger of making the 40k universe seem too small.

 

As a reader I get "oooh" moments when there are Easter eggs or background characters who are foreground characters in other books or series BUT that does have the danger of making things seem smaller.

 

A perfect example of that is how Inquisitor Heldane appears in the Ravenor books set in Segmentum Obscuras and then pops up in Gaunt's Ghosts set in Segmentum Pacificus a few hundred years later.

 

Yes of course that is perfectly plausible but doesn't it make things seem smaller? Isn't it perfectly plausible that an Inquisitor would spend their entire career in a single Sector let alone travel halfway across the galaxy?

 

It doesn't bother me that much, but wonder how others feel between that "easter egg" balance and scale?

[Felix Antipodes]

I think it comes down to how it is handled tbh. To use your example, I wouldn't think twice about Heldane popping up again 200 years later if he is shown as being 200 years older (rejuvenat treatments), and experienced. On the other hand if there wasn't any difference in the character in these two very different settings it would derail my suspension of belief immediately.

 

That said, I often scratch my head at how many times I've read about the same company (or two) are portrayed fighting on several battle zones at the same time (it seems lol).

[DarkChaplain]

40k isn't at danger there I think. Star Wars is the perfect example of a universe feeling small. It is the same planets over and over, the same heroes over and over, and stuff from the Clone Wars coming back around over and over. The comics are especially bad about sticking the characters everywhere and cross-referencing other events for cameos and what not.

 

In 40k, I sometimes feel that things aren't tied well enough together, due to the multi-author nature and hierarchy within Chapters being reshuffled for a particular novel. Heck, was the Will of Iron Dark Angels Captain under Azrael even part of the background before?

 

We really don't see as much cross-over elements as we could and maybe even should. Abnett has the tendency of putting related plot bits in all his works (like the Cognitae reference in Prospero Burns, Heldane in GG or his freakin' perpetuals which I fully expect to appear in the Bequin trilogy before long), and McNeill recycles his characters too much in general (same exact relevant Iron Warriors cast in Angel Exterminatus as in Storm of Iron, the HonSou thing etc), but beyond that? I don't see it much.

 

Even the big name characters are rarely front and center. We see it more now with the Legends books, or some big Space Marine Battles installments, but even then most novels introduce new PoV characters as well, and don't do stuff like the new canon mainline Star Wars comic where you get, between A New Hope and Empire Stikes Back, 4 or so arcs about Luke, Han and Leia doing unbelievable stuff like capturing a Star Destroyer almost single-handedly, crashing the Smuggler's Moon and fighting with Lightsabers and what else they did.

 

40k does a good job keeping up mystery overall. You might find references in Fabius Bile: Primogenitor to The Talon of Horus, but that's because the character was actually involved in some capacity, not because it is a throwaway reference to benefit the reader. When Armageddon is referenced it is because it had a massive impact, despite being a single world. We have enough worlds ignorant of the Space Marines and grand heroes that it doesn't matter if one in a novel reveres a specific Chapter as saviors because of ancient history.

 

I don't know. It'd be a problem to me when characters just pop up randomly in unrelated plotlines. Seeing Typhus in the Legacy of Caliban trilogy for example isn't such a case, since there's a built up reason to it. If Khârn were to pop up in every Khorne warband, I'd be getting annoyed. Or if every other book referenced Caliban or Macragge even though it is set on a backwater halfway across the galaxy. We get a lot of throwaway worlds and conflicts to avoid stuff like that, and I like it this way.

 

That said, there are legitimate issues with timelines and retcons through the many iterations of 40k. Sometimes a Codex will highlight characters that aren't even in the earlier novel about it, or company numbers are just different entirely. Being stuck so long in 999.M41 in general causes problems since, without more specific dates, it feels like everything happens at once. It is an issue of design that, to me, only becomes really apparent when you actively consider when all these stories are set. Thankfully a lot of books just don't give you dates and are ambiguous enough to be set whenever in M41.

[HeritorA]

'we really don't see as much cross-over elements as we could and maybe even should. Abnett has the tendency of putting related plot bits in all his works (like the Cognitae reference in Prospero Burns, Heldane in GG or his freakin' perpetuals which I fully expect to appear in the Bequin trilogy before long), and McNeill recycles his characters too much in general (same exact relevant Iron Warriors cast in Angel Exterminatus as in Storm of Iron, the HonSou thing etc), but beyond that? I don't see it much'

 

- fully agree with you.

 

'That said, there are legitimate issues with timelines and retcons through the many iterations of 40k. Sometimes a Codex will highlight characters that aren't even in the earlier novel about it, or company numbers are just different entirely. Being stuck so long in 999.M41 in general causes problems since, without more specific dates, it feels like everything happens at once. It is an issue of design that, to me, only becomes really apparent when you actively consider when all these stories are set. Thankfully a lot of books just don't give you dates and are ambiguous enough to be set whenever in M41.'

 

- that's now a tendency on it's own. A lot of BL books simply do not use specifics dates anymore

[Xisor]

It crystallised in my head recently: Eldrad.

 

It annoys me that he's who he is in the Horus Heresy. Well, not annoys. It's worse than that. It's a missed opportunity. In Fulgrim you had a chance to show the nascent Craftworlds uncomfortable in their new existence (or any variation) - but it was squandered to have a crap CWE fight scene.

 

In "Valedor", by contrast, you have a gulf of time and sense of "history" between Iyanden and Biel-Tan. Not merely the matters at hand, but the idea of bigger more philosophical or historic schisms between the two.

 

In that manner, and this was something annoying about some of the old Warhammer books too (Sigmar trilogy, I'm looking at you) that make not only the world seem small, but centuries feel like minutes.

 

In that regard, part of the problem isn't just characters and the gulfs of space, but properly portraying the passage of time - perfect for the Haldane question posed.

 

It isn't merely a question of making the galaxy seem small, but of making ten millennia seem a short amount of time.

 

----

 

This somewhat stemmed from my comments regarding "The Gathering Storm" narrative - I'm concerned that main GW focus too much on the known names. Creed, Eldrad, Cypher, Abaddon - I'm glad the first six triumvirals were new characters, but there are connecting pieces that are problematic for me.

 

In particular (though I'm curious if this one is less a problem than a solution)...

 

 

Sylandri Veilwalker. Pretty certain she was in Fabius too. And now in my reading of Valedor who appears? Where else?

 

[HeritorA]

It crystallised in my head recently: Eldrad.

 

It annoys me that he's who he is in the Horus Heresy. Well, not annoys. It's worse than that. It's a missed opportunity. In Fulgrim you had a chance to show the nascent Craftworlds uncomfortable in their new existence (or any variation) - but it was squandered to have a crap CWE fight scene.

 

In "Valedor", by contrast, you have a gulf of time and sense of "history" between Iyanden and Biel-Tan. Not merely the matters at hand, but the idea of bigger more philosophical or historic schisms between the two.

 

In that manner, and this was something annoying about some of the old Warhammer books too (Sigmar trilogy, I'm looking at you) that make not only the world seem small, but centuries feel like minutes.

 

In that regard, part of the problem isn't just characters and the gulfs of space, but properly portraying the passage of time - perfect for the Haldane question posed.

 

It isn't merely a question of making the galaxy seem small, but of making ten millennia seem a short amount of time.

 

----

 

This somewhat stemmed from my comments regarding "The Gathering Storm" narrative - I'm concerned that main GW focus too much on the known names. Creed, Eldrad, Cypher, Abaddon - I'm glad the first six triumvirals were new characters, but there are connecting pieces that are problematic for me.

 

In particular (though I'm curious if this one is less a problem than a solution)...

 

 

Sylandri Veilwalker. Pretty certain she was in Fabius too. And now in my reading of Valedor who appears? Where else?

 

And Fall of Cadia and Fracture of Biel-Tan - she is everywhere

[mc warhammer]

this is one of those things that seemed to have gotten a mention years ago by an author and then latched on to by greater fandom (or at least this board) to the point where i think it's been over scrutinised.

 

30/40k is in no danger of becoming too small. i can barely keep up with it all. and by barely, i mean not at all.

 

if key events do seem to attract familiar key figures from time to time, that makes sense. otherwise, you could argue the whoniverse is too tiny because the doctor keeps rocking up at every crisis. actually...that might have something to it...

[bluntblade]

Certain authors are a bit too fond of having the main characters of a Legion do everything. It was a relief to realise that one book's Emperor's Children were new characters aside from Eidolon. Overall however, the universe in general doesn't have too much of that issue.

[HeritorA]

Certain authors are a bit too fond of having the main characters of a Legion do everything. It was a relief to realise that one book's Emperor's Children were new characters aside from Eidolon. Overall however, the universe in general doesn't have too much of that issue.

Well we have McNeil for that. He puts Forrix,Krueger, Maat, Ahriman, Sharowkyn and a lot of others almost in every HH/w40k novelS he writes. Even his new (for 6 years ago) and different 'Techpriests adventures' trilogy had 3 characters from Ultramarines, Storm of Iron novels.

In Magnus Primarch book we had the same all over again.

 

Instead of creating new interesting characters - it is easier for BL authors (and McNeil especially) to recycle old ones

[DarkChaplain]

While yes, McNeill does recycle characters, you're exaggerating badly.

 

Ahriman, for example, is in the Thousand Sons related novels. A Thousand Sons, The Crimson King, Magnus the Red, and the short stories/audio drama tying into those things. Meaning, he is where he needs to be, as a relevant, high-ranking Thousand Son: Part of the unfolding plotline. You're literally complaining that he is being consistent with the Legions' hierarchy and plotlines.

 

Sharrowkyn is in a short story prequel to Angel Exterminatus, Angel Exterminatus itself and The Seventh Serpent which continues one of the plotlines. That's it.

 

His Ultramarines/Iron Warriors have a lot of overlap, but part of that is by design. The Chapter's Due for example ties directly into McNeill's Mark of Calth novella, which sets up the M'Kar thing in the first place, which makes for a neat parallel in TCD due to it. Forrix and Krueger are in Angel Exterminatus and Storm of Iron for the most part only.

 

Heck, is it also an issue that Gav Thorpe references characters like Corswain in 40k novels? These are high ranking characters during the Great Crusade and Heresy, and their legacies would obviously have an impact. Could the authors come up with something new every time? Sure. But pulling back the veil can be very satisfying, and seeing overlap and characters from one thing in another, as part of an origin story (and what else *is* the Horus Heresy if not a massive origin story for the state of dozens of factions, thousands of worlds and the Imperium altogether?), is pretty damn cool.

[HeritorA]

'Forrix and Krueger are in Angel Exterminatus and Storm of Iron for the most part only.' - and in Magnus novella with Obax Zakayo for the fan-service.

 

'as part of an origin story (and what else *is* the Horus Heresy if not a massive origin story for the state of dozens of factions, thousands of worlds and the Imperium altogether?), is pretty damn cool.' - usually that rule doesn't work for them

[Xisor]

DarkChaplain - I get your points, but it is McNeill I think of foremost when wondering about Smallhammer. He manages it with 40k/HH and managed it really annoyingly in Time of Legends:Sigmar.

 

In that sense, I don't think it's *really* about the re-use of characters. Not entirely. It's re-use if characters to little achievement.

 

In praise of The Outcast Dead - at least Atharva wasn't someone we'd met before. (But given his [same argument @Sharrowkyn] power, it's like getting to the final book of the HH and finding out that the Emperor had an even more powerful brother we'd just not heard of...)

 

Damning The Outcast Dead, McNeill manages to make the City of Sight feel like it's run from a holiday retreat by three randoms, and their old favourite pupil: the best person ever, and his sidekick Atharva.

 

Also, somehow down the passage of aeons Captain Japan exists as an all-singing all-dancing stereotype made manifest. (A double edged sword if ever there was - he was a really interesting character, if only they hadn't cut his sidekicks Jock MacTavish, Sheila Ozzy-Bruce, Ivan Russovich, and Mahatma Patel...)

 

I digress.

 

----

 

I think it's the lack of *point* in the reuse of the characters that bug me. Cameos are dandy wee things, but there's a crossed gulf of moderation in many places.

 

Combine that with using a cameo instead of new incidental characters and it feels very crowded.

 

Worse, I think, if those cameos have no subtlety of interesting depiction to them.

 

Gratuitous might be the word I'm looking for.

[HeritorA]

'Damning The Outcast Dead, McNeill manages to make the City of Sight feel like it's run from a holiday retreat by three randoms, and their old favourite pupil: the best person ever, and his sidekick Atharva.

Also, somehow down the passage of aeons Captain Japan exists as an all-singing all-dancing stereotype made manifest. (A double edged sword if ever there was - he was a really interesting character, if only they hadn't cut his sidekicks Jock MacTavish, Sheila Ozzy-Bruce, Ivan Russovich, and Mahatma Patel...)' 

 

- I wouldn't have been able to say it better. Ty Xisor.

 

'I think it's the lack of *point* in the reuse of the characters that bug me. Cameos are dandy wee things, but there's a crossed gulf of moderation in many places.

Combine that with using a cameo instead of new incidental characters and it feels very crowded.
Worse, I think, if those cameos have no subtlety of interesting depiction to them.
Gratuitous might be the word I'm looking for.' 

 

- ohhh, how I wish they would listen to you

[R_F_D]

Gratuitous might be the word I'm looking for.

 

One could say Grammaticus might be the word you're looking for .....

(I thank you, I'm here all week.....)

[Quite liked him as a character]

{Please don't report me for dad jokes}

[HeritorA]

 

Gratuitous might be the word I'm looking for.

 

One could say Grammaticus might be the word you're looking for .....

(I thank you, I'm here all week.....)

[Quite liked him as a character]

{Please don't report me for dad jokes}

 

LOL. Also we have Oll Person and Damon Prytanis. Word 'Perpetual' is now a sleak spy joke nowdays. Even AL now laugh at them, lol