Space wolves hit and run

[Purge the Daemon]

So the hit and run USR is conferred bg a single model in a unit having the rule.

 

The space wolves right of War the Pale Hunters grants hit amd run to all infantry units except terminator equipped.

 

But you can join non TDA equipped infantry characters to a unit in TDA.

 

So the question is would a space wolves character in power/artificer/aether rune armour would grant a unit in TDA hit and run.

 

Currently RAW this seems perfectly legal, RAI I don't know. Though I really hope so, would give some reason to take the right of War.

[Lord Asvaldir]

If the rule for pale hunters is worded exactly as you say it is, then RAW yes you can definetly attach a character to a terminator unit to give them hit and run. RAI though seems like that's definetly not the intention. 

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

Hmmm, I'm tempted to say that it would depend on TDA type. I might be willing to allow hit and run on Tartaros as they can make run moves and sweeping advance but rules clearly state that if you join with Cataphractii Pattern you lose the those abilities. In my mind if you aren't agile enough to make run moves and sweep you aren't agile enough to hit and run. (Of course I might just be applying to much logic to GW rules.)

[Purge the Daemon]

Hmmm, I'm tempted to say that it would depend on TDA type. I might be willing to allow hit and run on Tartaros as they can make run moves and sweeping advance but rules clearly state that if you join with Cataphractii Pattern you lose the those abilities. In my mind if you aren't agile enough to make run moves and sweep you aren't agile enough to hit and run. (Of course I might just be applying to much logic to GW rules.)

I mean it is a reduced hit and run anyways it's only 2d6 instead of 3d6 as per the right of War.

[Jarkaira]

According to BRB characters on themselves aren't Infantry units. Edit: and they also are. What to believe with two different views on the same issue :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Don't be that guy .

[TheWolfLord]

Don't be that guy .

You mean that guy that uses rules to decide what's legal?

 

We are told that joined HQs can only benefit if the rules is worded such as Stubborn or Fearless.

 

Hit & Run is one such rule, it doesn't matter how it's gained by a unit it applies to all models in that unit even any joined IC or if an IC joins a unit the rest of the squad.

 

Hit & Run has no restrictions on what units can use it either.

 

I see nothing wrong with spreading H&R throughout the army by spreading IC

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The intent is crystal clear though.

[Lord Blackwood]

 

Don't be that guy .

You mean that guy that uses rules to decide what's legal?

 

We are told that joined HQs can only benefit if the rules is worded such as Stubborn or Fearless.

 

Hit & Run is one such rule, it doesn't matter how it's gained by a unit it applies to all models in that unit even any joined IC or if an IC joins a unit the rest of the squad.

 

Hit & Run has no restrictions on what units can use it either.

 

I see nothing wrong with spreading H&R throughout the army by spreading IC

 

You  aint wrong , some such distinctions are lost on people though. 

 

Its an interesting little loophole that makes the whole 1 hero per 1k restriction sting a touch less.  

[TheWolfLord]

The intent is crystal clear though.

No the intent is that Terminator models don't have Hit & Run by default. You've added an assumption that they are immune to Hit & Run and can never benefit from it.

 

The rules don't say that and why would a unit type be given a blanket restriction from a Special Rule?

 

If it gave all infantry except Terminators Fearless would you argue a unit of Varagyr couldn't benefit from the Fearless provided by a Keeper of the Dead? If doesn't make any sense for such a broad restriction.

 

Like any Special Rule with that wording it's passed to the unit if joined by an IC with it.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It's a loop hole. Do you think it's the intent ?

[shandwen]

It is RAW, but clearly it is another example of FW not knowing their game rules. I wish it was not so common for FW to leave massive loopholes or to fail miserably.

[TheWolfLord]

It's a loop hole. Do you think it's the intent ?

I think the intent was to give the Power Armoured units Hit & Run, I don't think the intent was to remove the option of Hit & Run from Terminator armed models.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Why is that... they would have included terminators. Once you cross reference the independent character rule he joins the unit and becomes part of said unit, and no longer counts as a seperate unit. Hit and Run does not apply to "units" in terminator armour. The same is true if a terminator equipped character joined a power armoured unit.

[TheWolfLord]

Why is that... they would have included terminators. Once you cross reference the independent character rule he joins the unit and becomes part of said unit, and no longer counts as a seperate unit. Hit and Run does not apply to "units" in terminator armour. The same is true if a terminator equipped character joined a power armoured unit.

You are using the term 'apply' which is entirely absent from the description of the rule.

 

It actually states all infantry units other than those in Terminator Armour GAIN Hit & Run, this is a positive rule but you are treating it like a restriction.

 

Going back to 40k if this was a detachment or formation that gave all non Terminator wearing models Hit & Run this wouldn't even be a discussion. This rule does not restrict who can use Hit & Run but gives it to many units in the detachment as a bonus.

 

Your explanation of the IC and unit interaction would invalidate all Special Rules transferred by a character to a unit, luckily the rule book makes this clear.

 

“Special Rules

When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them"

 

I would agree with you if the wording for the Hit & Run rules stated it does not apply to Terminator units or if it was a restriction of the RoW rather than an effect.

 

However, the rule simply says non Terminator units gain Hit & Run, you're adding an addition restriction and assumption that's simply not suggested in the rules.

 

You can state intent all you want but the rules interaction between IC and a unit is such a hot topic throughout GW and the community it's pretty inconceivable a rules team wouldn't know that certain rules can be transferred to a unit and that Hit & Run is one of those rules. Additionally the wording of the rule is entirely positive and I just don't see where this restriction is supposed to be. A unit is not immune to a special rule because it does not GAIN it via a RoW or the detachment rules.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If something is contentious I always choose the least advantageous interpretation. We are playing 30k after all.

[Lord Blackwood]

Pretty much.

 

You would think with the widespread use of Celestine in 40k currently folks would understand how hit and run works D:

 

Of course there's always players that try to kneecap people for stuff if it sounds even a little gamey.

 

Good job TWL at keeping a calm head and e planning the rules as they are written.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Unfortunately they flub the rules often enough and Inferno is no exception.

[Baluc]

Ultimately the decision comes down to "is a unit with models in mixed armour other including terminator armour, a unit in terminator armour" If the answer is no, then hit and run to your hearts content.

 

The hit and run rule isn't the only rule you need to cross reference. Remember when an IC joins a unit it stops being a unit of one model and counts as a member of that unit, while retaining the rules for Characters.

 

So you need to decide if he at the moment you need to use hit and run is even a recipient of Bleed and Harry special rule.

 

This is a different and separate case than if a IC just happened to have the hit and run USR on his profile.

[Runefyre]

Personally, I'm not going to run my TDA with H&R even if they're running with an IC who has it (I hold to Bladewolf's position, it's definitely supported by RaW) just because I don't think it's fluffy.

 

I do think that the restriction should have been cataphractii and indomitus terminators only though. I think Tartaros should be able to.

[TheWolfLord]

Whether I even do it will come down to the stance of my local club and wider region if I'm playing in events. If they don't believe it's allowed I'll state the reasons I think it does but I'll accept their decision as I always do.

 

If there's a contentious rule I also take the cautious approach as I'd prefer to disadvantage myself than beat an opponent using incorrect rules.

I just don't see this as being contentious, we know which units gain this ability and it's gained at list building step when a RoW is chosen.

 

A unit never loses its special rules but some don't transfer their effect when joined to another unit. The rulebook and recent FAQ makes it clear which rules these are.

 

The fact this is 30k has no bearing though, it's a general rule and should be played as the rulebook describes.

 

My final decision always comes down to how I'd feel if my opponent had these rules, would it sound correct or would it sound like an exploit.

 

Having a lot of experience with 40k Wolves, Deathstars and understanding IC interaction with their units I can honestly say I'd be perfectly happy with any opponents using this against me as I can't see what is against the rules or intent.

 

Some people may say that's the difference between 30k and 40k as people choose fluffier combos and wouldn't mix units like this. That's maybe true, I never said I'd use this to spread the Hit & Run throughout my list only that I believe the rules allow it.

I can see some situations where Hit & Run on the right unit may change the game but it's not that powerful even in 30k.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You're funny. If you can't see why it's contentious that's okay too. :D

[TheWolfLord]

You're funny. If you can't see why it's contentious that's okay too. :D

I don't think that type of reply helps.

 

My posts have been respectful and used rules where I can to justify my argument.

 

If you have no counter argument other than you don't believe it was the intent just be honest, say that and then let us discuss it properly to see if we can reach an overall agreement.

 

If you know FWs rule system maybe there are other examples from other Legions or FAQs that can help. I'm more than happy to have my opinion changed but when Hit & Run is so well used and it's interaction understood there needs to be something concrete.

 

I know you believe the 30k rules team sometimes has a different intention to the main 40k rules team but they have to abide by the same core rules and everything that entails. It's pretty shocking if they write these books not understanding the core rules well enough and intend entirely different outcomes. I also think it's pretty insulting to them to assume that's the case whenever there's a strangely worded rule.

[Quixus]

Remember when an IC joins a unit it stops being a unit of one model and counts as a member of that unit, while retaining the rules for Characters.

While this is a very sensible interpretation of the IC rules, the underlined part isn't actually in the rules. By strict reading the IC is both a unit of one model and part of a different unit.

[Lord Blackwood]

Where do you weigh in on this debate Quixus ?