So why Lorgar?

[bluntblade]

Plus you have cultures changing, moving, dying out as a result of conflict or other pressures.

[b1soul]

Yeah...

 

I guess what I'm saying is...

 

How would the Emp know that Chogoris would suit his Genghis Khan primarch or that Fenris would suit his Viking primarch or that Colchis would suit his zealot primarch?

 

Could he have peered into the Warp and "seen" certain planets via clairvoyance?

[bluntblade]

I do wonder what the early Vth will look like. One thing that's never been mentioned is Terrans who've had to adjust to a different culture after years of service.

[Loesh]

 

IMO Lorgar ended up as one of the ultimate villains of the Heresy and was manipulated far less into his position than Horus, but he's still one of the most tragic figures as well easily ranking up there with Magnus. Magnus at least damned himself, and his legion by extension, long before Prospero burned.

 

I also wanted to comment on this whenever I got the time, since it's been awhile since i'v dumped just one gigantic analysis of something on this forum and i'm feeling in the right mood(Sleep deprived.) to conjure something up about my personal opinion with this.

 

I think that the most tragic part of the Chaos Primarchs is the universe they were thrust into more then anything else, what damned them was all the good intentions for the world around them in a universe that couldn't ever sustain that idealism. Lorgar is the pinnacle of this, but all the Primarchs who turned traitor were thoughtful visionaries(Even Angron, who could of been so much more had the nails not been pounded into their head.) in a way they emphasize the hubris that the Emperor himself had that he could guide the entire human race or had a little too much humanity in them. Whether it's Magnus wanting to cure the universes ills through sorcery, Fulgrims fear of failing himself and humanity(Which has a sort of ironic echo when I read Fulgrim after Master of Mankind.), Angrons realization he worked for a bloodsoaked tyrant to butcher innocents, or countless other thoughts and actions which planted the seeds of Chaos in their heart.

 

None of these things came from a place of evil, they came from things designed to be weapons having a bit too much sentience built into them. To an extent I can understand, even root for, the Chaos Primarchs/Legions despite all the horror they inflict. Imagine being someone like Fulgrim or Horus who tried to create their legionnaires into something more and thought they could reshape the galaxy into something powerful and beautiful, imagine becoming convinced that your legion was nothing more but a tool to be used and discarded, all the blood you spent all these children press ganged into your armies would be laid to waste for a species that wouldn't appreciate you, that you were like the Thunder Warriors fighting for a galaxy that you could never actually exist in harmony with, that you might be wiped from memory and pass into the nothingness while a race that couldn't fend for itself grew fat and content off the blood of you and the sons you helped create.

 

People oversimplify it into 'daddy issues' but even when you disregard what might of been lies fed to them by Chaos I think that any thoughtful being would look at the world they were creating, the way their legions were treated, what happened in the past, what may happen again, and be absolutely horrified at their existence. Perhaps that sudden self awareness is exactly why the Thunder Warriors were purged, Chaos I think just accelerated the process for them, I at least don't think I would need any of Lorgars Twilight Zone Ray Bradbury Friday the 13th Voodoo crap magic to convince me to turn on the Emperor if I ever thought I had a chance to take him down.

 

That I think is what makes all the Chaos Primarchs equally tragic, in another setting they would of been heroes, but...well...this is Warhammer 40k.

[bluntblade]

Someone get that post to whoever writes Horus' duel with the Emperor

[theinstantcrippler]

 

 

IMO Lorgar ended up as one of the ultimate villains of the Heresy and was manipulated far less into his position than Horus, but he's still one of the most tragic figures as well easily ranking up there with Magnus. Magnus at least damned himself, and his legion by extension, long before Prospero burned.

 

I also wanted to comment on this whenever I got the time, since it's been awhile since i'v dumped just one gigantic analysis of something on this forum and i'm feeling in the right mood(Sleep deprived.) to conjure something up about my personal opinion with this.

 

I think that the most tragic part of the Chaos Primarchs is the universe they were thrust into more then anything else, what damned them was all the good intentions for the world around them in a universe that couldn't ever sustain that idealism. Lorgar is the pinnacle of this, but all the Primarchs who turned traitor were thoughtful visionaries(Even Angron, who could of been so much more had the nails not been pounded into their head.) in a way they emphasize the hubris that the Emperor himself had that he could guide the entire human race or had a little too much humanity in them. Whether it's Magnus wanting to cure the universes ills through sorcery, Fulgrims fear of failing himself and humanity(Which has a sort of ironic echo when I read Fulgrim after Master of Mankind.), Angrons realization he worked for a bloodsoaked tyrant to butcher innocents, or countless other thoughts and actions which planted the seeds of Chaos in their heart.

 

None of these things came from a place of evil, they came from things designed to be weapons having a bit too much sentience built into them. To an extent I can understand, even root for, the Chaos Primarchs/Legions despite all the horror they inflict. Imagine being someone like Fulgrim or Horus who tried to create their legionnaires into something more and thought they could reshape the galaxy into something powerful and beautiful, imagine becoming convinced that your legion was nothing more but a tool to be used and discarded, all the blood you spent all these children press ganged into your armies would be laid to waste for a species that wouldn't appreciate you, that you were like the Thunder Warriors fighting for a galaxy that you could never actually exist in harmony with, that you might be wiped from memory and pass into the nothingness while a race that couldn't fend for itself grew fat and content off the blood of you and the sons you helped create.

 

People oversimplify it into 'daddy issues' but even when you disregard what might of been lies fed to them by Chaos I think that any thoughtful being would look at the world they were creating, the way their legions were treated, what happened in the past, what may happen again, and be absolutely horrified at their existence. Perhaps that sudden self awareness is exactly why the Thunder Warriors were purged, Chaos I think just accelerated the process for them, I at least don't think I would need any of Lorgars Twilight Zone Ray Bradbury Friday the 13th Voodoo crap magic to convince me to turn on the Emperor if I ever thought I had a chance to take him down.

 

That I think is what makes all the Chaos Primarchs equally tragic, in another setting they would of been heroes, but...well...this is Warhammer 40k.

 

 

 

Always thought this to be true. All the chaos primarchs had their justified reasons to go down the path to Chaos. You missed Perturabo, but I think Angel Exterminatus really explained some of his motivations and complaints regarding the GC and the EoM. Same with Lorgar. Moreso than the words of Kor Phaeron and Erebus I think it was the treatment he got from the Emperor that really pushed him down. There are so many examples of people in the workd today who are just looking for a cause to believe in . Lorgar reminds me of those people after Monarchia. 

 

The Chaos Primarchs are much easier to sympathise with than the loyalists. Lorgar moreso than most.

[b1soul]

I do wonder what the early Vth will look like. One thing that's never been mentioned is Terrans who've had to adjust to a different culture after years of service.

I'm thinking they would mostly be similar to Torghun in mindset

 

After the Khan takes over, he starts marginalising them...recruiting heavily from Chogoris and if from Terra, mostly from the Asiatic hives...alienating the Terran veterans and later Terran recruits like Torgun

 

It would make sense if Torghun had served and risen under an old Terran captain before being promoted to captain himself

 

Some legions had Terrans and Homeworlders who got along. I'm guessing that the WS were a bit divided...though less severely than the RG

[bluntblade]

The Scars are noted as Ilya as being the least cohesive for a long time. So quite possibly those brotherhoods were just sent off here and there to do their own thing. So like Corvus did, but with a very different tone.

[Mellow]

 

I don't imagine He had much knowledge of each planet unless He had an out of date computer from the DAoT which had information on them. (Chances are slim as it would probably have been an AI computer from those times)

As I understand it, the cultures of Colchis, Fenris, Chogoris, Caliban etc. all developed/regressed during the Age of Strife, a 5,000 year period.

 

A DAoT database would've been woefully outdated and largely inaccurate after 5,000 years, no?

Which is exactly my hypothetical point. I doubt He had any knowledge of these planets other than the slight tingling in his brain as to where he "felt" His sons were.

[Ranwulf]

 

I do wonder what the early Vth will look like. One thing that's never been mentioned is Terrans who've had to adjust to a different culture after years of service.

I'm thinking they would mostly be similar to Torghun in mindset

 

After the Khan takes over, he starts marginalising them...recruiting heavily from Chogoris and if from Terra, mostly from the Asiatic hives...alienating the Terran veterans and later Terran recruits like Torgun

 

It would make sense if Torghun had served and risen under an old Terran captain before being promoted to captain himself

 

Some legions had Terrans and Homeworlders who got along. I'm guessing that the WS were a bit divided...though less severely than the RG

 

But Torghun had to learn about Chogoris and it's language by the time he was inducted as a space marine. In fact his name was chosen from a Chogorian legend. 

Ran

[Indefragable]

My take is that Lorgar was not created as a "religious" primarch, but rather a "believer". Someone that believes wholeheartly in the Imperial Truth, in the Imperial Beliefs. Someone that could be a Herald for the Emperor. Thing is, Lorgar not only was raised as priest, but also was easily influenced by others and that was his weakness, which turned him into zealot. His father and his world shaped him into a preacher.

Personally, the reason he was punished this way - because at the end of the day, Lorgar beliefs was one of the MANY things the Emperor had to deal with. We seen catherics at Calth (Oll Persson), as much the Emperor despised religious belief he was not stupid enough to think he could purge it completely. I think the Emperor let it slide, because as long Lorgar conquered new planets, did his job as a general and a herald of the Imperium Truth, then it would be acceptable losses. Think about it. Why didn't the Emperor stop Curze and Angron murderous rampages? Maybe because it suited him? If the "belief" of the Emperor united mankind, then maybe this could be accepted if reined in. Maybe because he has more things to deal with than his generals indiosicracies. Lorgar failure wasn't his personal beliefs of the Emperor as a god, but I think the fact that he failed as a general, he didn't bring to heel enough planets as he should have. "The greatest sin is failure".

Another point - I don't know how long did it take for the Emperor to learn of it. He is not omniscient, he said so in Master of Mankind. He had an entire galaxy to command and take care off, it is not out of place to think that he only learned about it later and it took time to - gather the Ultramarines, Malcador and overseer himself this.

Ran

To me its rather simple: control.

The Emperor wanted the Imperial Truth to be the official stance of the Imperium, but was less concerned with the details.

Real world example (don't read if you prefer not to wade into heavier topics):

Hidden Content

NOTE: I say all of the below in a vacuum, without trying to make any statements or subjective opinions. Merely attempting to point out past Earth examples.

There are plenty of real world and historical examples of differences between the "state religion" and sub cultures with different beliefs or practices. Jews in Middle-Age Europe and Christians in Muslim Arabic empires come to mind. In both cases, the attitude was explicitly 2nd class citizenry where so long as they kept (and bred) to themselves, they were (usually, at least officially) left alone. The rulers wanted their taxes, goods, and obedience above all else, and it was more efficient to collect those than it was to send soldiers in. Of course, the latter happened all too often anyways, usually when King X the Xth needed a convenient local straw man.

Soviet Communism under Stalin wanted to suppress/eradicate all religion. The "state" was to be the new religion, complete with effective "worship" of the party leader (Stalin).

In comparison, Chinese Communism cares less about religious beliefs so long as they "vote the party." For example, the Chinese Communist Party allows Catholicism within its borders so long as the Communist Party gets to choose who is made bishops and cardinals and so forth. This is a huge matter of contention between the Holy See (pope, et al) and China, resulting in an "official" Chinese Catholic church that has all the pomp of the western church, but explicitly backs the government's policies, and an "underground" Catholicism which is 100% in line with the Vatican's beliefs, but is theoretically (if not in actuality) officially persecuted there.

^the Chinese version is kind of how I see Lorgar's role in the pre-censure Crusade...

Another example would be the Mongol empires. As Dan Carlin (of Hardcore HIstory fame) puts it: "Genghis Khan wanted to take out as many celestial insurance policies as possible." Despite their scorched-earth battle policies, the Mongol rulers typically didn't care all too much what beliefs a person had as long as they also prayed for the health and wealth of the Great Khan and that the Mongol armies were successful on the battlefield. Not quite the same as the Imperial Truth, but the notion is the same in some ways: tear down your temples as a sign of fealty and pay your tithe to show your loyalty and you'll be left alone.

...The Emperor didn't care so much about whatever Lorgar was doing so long as it allowed the Emperor/Imperium to maintain total control. The purpose of the Great Crusade was to unite all humanity under a single banner so that they could

A) actually survive against the millions of hostile xenos out there taking advantage of its disunity

B ) bring them together so the could ascend into a psychic race or something like that?

C) profit? I mean literally. Secured trade routes = increased trade = increase profits = technological and societal progress

Whatever the case, the Emperor desired unity above all else. Lorgar's affinity for funny hats was an annoying affectation until it came time to make a bold statement to the rest of the Imperium. The end of the Great Crusade (and the galaxy) was in sight, and Big E needed to start shaping what the Pax Imperialis would look like, hence Monarchia got the shaft.

All of the above is theory/how I wrap my head around it, btw. I know others have made far more straightforward claims that the Emperor simply did not know.

Yeah...

I guess what I'm saying is...

How would the Emp know that Chogoris would suit his Genghis Khan primarch or that Fenris would suit his Viking primarch or that Colchis would suit his zealot primarch?

Could he have peered into the Warp and "seen" certain planets via clairvoyance?

To me, that is the single greatest question of the HH series:

How much of the Primarchs' end result was nature vs nurture?

Was Sanguinius created with wings or are they a result of Baal's radiation?

Was Lorgar predisposed to being a religious fanatics, desperate to believe in anything or is it a commentary on the nature of irreversible corruption of a totalitarian theocracy?

Was the Horus always meant to be "top dog," or is it simply the luck of the draw in terms of rediscovery order?

I have trouble with the idea that Big E had a blueprint for a frothing murder-happy degenerate and Angron drew that straw.

I do wonder what the early Vth will look like. One thing that's never been mentioned is Terrans who've had to adjust to a different culture after years of service.

Chris Wraight's Scars and accompany short stories.

TL; DR:

Terran White Scar: "why didn't you wait for my Devastators to suppress the enemy before you assaulted?"

Chogoran White Scar: "....why the aren't you on your bike?"

[bluntblade]

 

 

I do wonder what the early Vth will look like. One thing that's never been mentioned is Terrans who've had to adjust to a different culture after years of service.

 

I'm thinking they would mostly be similar to Torghun in mindset

After the Khan takes over, he starts marginalising them...recruiting heavily from Chogoris and if from Terra, mostly from the Asiatic hives...alienating the Terran veterans and later Terran recruits like Torgun

It would make sense if Torghun had served and risen under an old Terran captain before being promoted to captain himself

Some legions had Terrans and Homeworlders who got along. I'm guessing that the WS were a bit divided...though less severely than the RG

But Torghun had to learn about Chogoris and it's language by the time he was inducted as a space marine. In fact his name was chosen from a Chogorian legend.

Ran

I think he's referring to the pre-Chogoris Terrans, and I definitely was. Hence ones who have to adjust after decades fighting, rather than after Ascencion and training

[b1soul]

But Torghun had to learn about Chogoris and it's language by the time he was inducted as a space marine. In fact his name was chosen from a Chogorian legend. 

Ran

Aye, Torghun did...that's why I drew a distinction between old school Terran veterans (from pre-Khan days) and later (post-Khan) Terran recruits

 

"After the Khan takes over, he starts marginalising them...recruiting heavily from Chogoris and if from Terra, mostly from the Asiatic hives...alienating the Terran veterans and later Terran recruits like Torgun"

 

I think both groups would have been marginalised, especially the non-Asiatic marines, as the post-Khan WS seem to have been the only Astartes legion to practice racial discrimination

[b1soul]

I think he's referring to the pre-Chogoris Terrans, and I definitely was. Hence ones who have to adjust after decades fighting, rather than after Ascencion and training

I think upon Ascension, Torghun may have been placed in a company led by an old Terran captain

 

That, in addition to his love of the XVIth, would explain his very un-Chogorian ways.

 

Honestly, I would read a novella about Torghun's experiences in the Vth. The WS were perpetual foreigners in the Imperium. Torghun was a foreigner among these foreigners.

[mc warhammer]

 

But Torghun had to learn about Chogoris and it's language by the time he was inducted as a space marine. In fact his name was chosen from a Chogorian legend.

Ran

Aye, Torghun did...that's why I drew a distinction between old school Terran veterans (from pre-Khan days) and later (post-Khan) Terran recruits

 

"After the Khan takes over, he starts marginalising them...recruiting heavily from Chogoris and if from Terra, mostly from the Asiatic hives...alienating the Terran veterans and later Terran recruits like Torgun"

 

I think both groups would have been marginalised, especially the non-Asiatic marines, as the post-Khan WS seem to have been the only Astartes legion to practice racial discrimination

which strikes me as odd in the future of 30k. it almost seems written to explain the only non majority Caucasian legion

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I think we may be missing a key reason why the Emperor wanted rid of religion so much.

 

Clearly the Emperor had some problems with owing the chaos powers a debt and he understood how dangerous they where. Malcador told Mortarion that the grand plan involved controlling and limiting pyskers.

 

The Imperial truth was a carefully designed ideaology to eliminate faith and superstition, the two main methods used bu chaos to worm it's way into societies. A society that had no need for faith, superstition and has careful control over pyskers is at the least risk of chaos corruption.

 

A culture with no room for gods is relatively safe from chaos. The emperor had no intention of becoming the god that Humanity needed to protect itself from chaos, this changed post-heresy but during the great crusade the point of the Imperial truth seems to be to create a society safe from chaos.

 

Lorgar turning the Imperial truth into a religion put the whole plan at risk and I thin that was the reason for Monarchia. The worship of the Emperor had become too widespread and posed to great a risk and the Emperor figured out that Lorgar was the source of it.

[A D-B]

 

 

But Torghun had to learn about Chogoris and it's language by the time he was inducted as a space marine. In fact his name was chosen from a Chogorian legend.

Ran

Aye, Torghun did...that's why I drew a distinction between old school Terran veterans (from pre-Khan days) and later (post-Khan) Terran recruits

 

"After the Khan takes over, he starts marginalising them...recruiting heavily from Chogoris and if from Terra, mostly from the Asiatic hives...alienating the Terran veterans and later Terran recruits like Torgun"

 

I think both groups would have been marginalised, especially the non-Asiatic marines, as the post-Khan WS seem to have been the only Astartes legion to practice racial discrimination

which strikes me as odd in the future of 30k. it almost seems written to explain the only non majority Caucasian legion

 

I doubt the World Eaters, Thousand Sons, and Word Bearers are majority-Caucasian. I tend to describe the World Eaters as from everywhere (even their language, Nagrakali, is a mongrel tongue of many worlds - the language itself is a word from "Naga" and "Kali" with Hindu roots - and Delvarus and Lheor are black); the Thousand Sons are from Space Egypt (Khayon and most/all other Thousand Sons I've written about are dusky-skinned), and the Word Bearers (I can't recall ever writing about a white one, but I could be wrong) are from Space Babylon, so very few Colchisian Word Bearers are likely to be white.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

 

 

 

But Torghun had to learn about Chogoris and it's language by the time he was inducted as a space marine. In fact his name was chosen from a Chogorian legend.

Ran

Aye, Torghun did...that's why I drew a distinction between old school Terran veterans (from pre-Khan days) and later (post-Khan) Terran recruits

 

"After the Khan takes over, he starts marginalising them...recruiting heavily from Chogoris and if from Terra, mostly from the Asiatic hives...alienating the Terran veterans and later Terran recruits like Torgun"

 

I think both groups would have been marginalised, especially the non-Asiatic marines, as the post-Khan WS seem to have been the only Astartes legion to practice racial discrimination

which strikes me as odd in the future of 30k. it almost seems written to explain the only non majority Caucasian legion

 

I doubt the World Eaters, Thousand Sons, and Word Bearers are majority-Caucasian. I tend to describe the World Eaters as from everywhere (even their language, Nagrakali, is a mongrel tongue of many worlds - the language itself is a word from "Naga" and "Kali" with Hindu roots - and Delvarus and Lheor are black); the Thousand Sons are from Space Egypt (Khayon and most/all other Thousand Sons I've written about are dusky-skinned), and the Word Bearers (I can't recall ever writing about a white one, but I could be wrong) are from Space Babylon.

 

 

That's what I took from the books.

 

Also the Salamanders and Raven Guard can not be described as "caucasian".

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

But Torghun had to learn about Chogoris and it's language by the time he was inducted as a space marine. In fact his name was chosen from a Chogorian legend.

Ran

Aye, Torghun did...that's why I drew a distinction between old school Terran veterans (from pre-Khan days) and later (post-Khan) Terran recruits

 

"After the Khan takes over, he starts marginalising them...recruiting heavily from Chogoris and if from Terra, mostly from the Asiatic hives...alienating the Terran veterans and later Terran recruits like Torgun"

 

I think both groups would have been marginalised, especially the non-Asiatic marines, as the post-Khan WS seem to have been the only Astartes legion to practice racial discrimination

which strikes me as odd in the future of 30k. it almost seems written to explain the only non majority Caucasian legion

 

I doubt the World Eaters, Thousand Sons, and Word Bearers are majority-Caucasian. I tend to describe the World Eaters as from everywhere (even their language, Nagrakali, is a mongrel tongue of many worlds - the language itself is a word from "Naga" and "Kali" with Hindu roots - and Delvarus and Lheor are black); the Thousand Sons are from Space Egypt (Khayon and most/all other Thousand Sons I've written about are dusky-skinned), and the Word Bearers (I can't recall ever writing about a white one, but I could be wrong) are from Space Babylon, so very few Colchisian Word Bearers are likely to be white.

 

 

 

yeah, i did think twice before putting "caucasian" down because i did recall your work with WB, and of course the descriptions of the TS...but left it since technically caucasian applies to people of indian/south asian and middle eastern backgrounds as well as european. the other (very very outdated) classifications are mongoloid, negroid and australoid from memory. thanks for reminding me of the truly mixed depiction of WE, which i'm hoping will become more and more represented in artwork and models...but the WS stands out as (oddly) the only legion with a "mongoloid" majority.

 

i'm just wondering out aloud if that was what the author was trying to address with that particular bit of writing...giving it a reason of sorts. 

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

 

But Torghun had to learn about Chogoris and it's language by the time he was inducted as a space marine. In fact his name was chosen from a Chogorian legend.

Ran

Aye, Torghun did...that's why I drew a distinction between old school Terran veterans (from pre-Khan days) and later (post-Khan) Terran recruits

 

"After the Khan takes over, he starts marginalising them...recruiting heavily from Chogoris and if from Terra, mostly from the Asiatic hives...alienating the Terran veterans and later Terran recruits like Torgun"

 

I think both groups would have been marginalised, especially the non-Asiatic marines, as the post-Khan WS seem to have been the only Astartes legion to practice racial discrimination

which strikes me as odd in the future of 30k. it almost seems written to explain the only non majority Caucasian legion

 

I doubt the World Eaters, Thousand Sons, and Word Bearers are majority-Caucasian. I tend to describe the World Eaters as from everywhere (even their language, Nagrakali, is a mongrel tongue of many worlds - the language itself is a word from "Naga" and "Kali" with Hindu roots - and Delvarus and Lheor are black); the Thousand Sons are from Space Egypt (Khayon and most/all other Thousand Sons I've written about are dusky-skinned), and the Word Bearers (I can't recall ever writing about a white one, but I could be wrong) are from Space Babylon.

 

 

That's what I took from the books.

 

Also the Salamanders and Raven Guard can not be described as "caucasian".

 

 

i was under the impression that the salamanders had been retconned/explained to have darker skin due to an activation of the gene seed rather than any ethnic ancestry...but i could be wrong.

 

what's the make up of the RG meant to be? i know they're all pale with black hair, which sounds very east asian, but i assumed they weren't.

[Ranwulf]

Well, Alani is mentioned as having Asiatic features (this comes from the Novella Ravenlord). I'm half-japanese and I thought it was a bit weird hearing the words "asiatic features" straight up on the Horus Heresy, since I don't usually hear "egyptian", or "babylonic" in any other stories but being fair here, it makes things easier to describe and to determine, because almond shaped eyes get annoyng as a descriptor after sometime.

 

At the opposite end of the scale, the eldest was Aloni, with Asiatic complexion and a naturally bald scalp riveted with many gilded service studs. The leader of the assault companies of the Falcons, his armour showed the most recent repairs and maintenance, sporting fresh-bonded rivets and plates yet to be adorned with the ceremonial black paint. 

 

Everyone else gets a different description:

Agapito and Aloni stood to Noriz’s right, Branne and Souk-hounou to the left, all clad in the midnight hue of the Raven Guard. As brothers, Branne and Agapito were not quite identical, but both had square jaws, heavy brows and flat cheeks. There was a sallow cast to their skin from being born and raised under the artificial lights of Lycaeus, which even the augmentations of the Legiones Astartes could not remove. Agapito was marked out by a weathered scar on his face.

Soukhounou was the darkest of them all, a testament to his gene-heritage amongst the Sahelian League on Terra. He had short-cropped, curled black hair and a beard of the same furred his chin and cheeks; he had arrived only the day before and was yet to shave off the growth of the last patrol. His dark flesh was cut by pale scars and tribal tattoos from his childhood, where he had been raised as a praise-singer before being taken by the Emperor’s newly raised Legions.

 

Edit:So one of them are, some are not. 

 

And even if they retconned, the Salamanders will always be of african descent for me, since Vulkan and their love of fire, resilience and metalwork reminds me of Ogun( Ogum) from Yoruba mythology.

 

Ran 

[Loesh]

 

 

Always thought this to be true. All the chaos primarchs had their justified reasons to go down the path to Chaos. You missed Perturabo, but I think Angel Exterminatus really explained some of his motivations and complaints regarding the GC and the EoM. Same with Lorgar. Moreso than the words of Kor Phaeron and Erebus I think it was the treatment he got from the Emperor that really pushed him down. There are so many examples of people in the workd today who are just looking for a cause to believe in . Lorgar reminds me of those people after Monarchia. 

 

The Chaos Primarchs are much easier to sympathise with than the loyalists. Lorgar moreso than most.

 

 

 

Aye, to say Perterabo had it rough would be an understatement. I think the villainization of Chaos hinges a lot on how you tend to the view the loyalists which I tend to have shifting views on since im from from a more 'Might makes right' culture compared to some people.  The Emperor and humanities plan hinged on purging the majority of the galaxy from dissidents and Xenos, which actually im not wholly against as while some groups like the Interex or Diasporax were relatively harmless we also have examples of absolutely horrific alien races like the Nephelim. But I think in it's own way humanity is equally horrific to those races as an all consuming beast devouring the galaxy for it's own use, it is easier for us to sympathize because we are after all the same race. However mankind had in many ways become just as parasitic to the galaxy but disguised it under manifest destiny.

 

Astartes were just doing what they were taught. They were an organization of post humanity that fought for the people under the idea that man had a right to rule by strength even though they were several times smarter and stronger then the average man, they were taught to be selfless for mankind even while watching industry grind Xenos under it's boots for land and resources, they were tools for a master race of greedy sickly soft children who did anything and everything under the guise that they simply ruled because it was their divine right to do so.

 

But why should angels serve humans? If they were so strong why did they need to build heroes?. If they deserved life, then by their own logic they should stand for themselves.

[b1soul]

I always thought the Salamanders' darkness was gene-seed reaction to radiation

 

As for their "ethnicity/race", I thought it was unknown...not necessarily European (or Caucasian)

[MrDarth151]

I always thought the Salamanders' darkness was gene-seed reaction to radiation

 

As for their "ethnicity/race", I thought it was unknown...not necessarily European (or Caucasian)

 

It thought it was stated to be combination of both? And I'm fairly sure that natives of Nocturne are black skinned, or at least described as such.

[DarKnight]

I grasped that Lheor was black but not Delvarus. That makes me happy. I should read Betrayer again.

 

@b1soul I believe in one of the earlier editions Salamanders had dreadlocs, were naturally dark skinned, and possessed some aspects of African culture but that was retconned out with the radiation of Nocturne etc.