So why Lorgar?

[ronin_cse]

Well this is what I get for putting off writing replies! Time to write a short novel ;)

In my view Lorgar is the ultimate yes man. He would obstinately folow whatever he was told to do without a second thought (which is mimiced in his legion which does not appear to have very many loyal sons...). The fact that he turned away from the Emperor has mainly to with his pride: and as it seems the big E left flaws in every primarch on purpose it was probably to give a future excuse to cull him. (I say the on purpose as every single group was a tool for the big Es end game and every one had it "expiration date". Like navigators would be thrown out after the webway project would be completed and the thunder warriors were discarded after the marines were built. It is likely that only two or three legions were meant to exist after the psycic re-awakening that the Emperor had planned (and the other were to be erased).

IMO this is an extremely shallow reading of Lorgar and is the equivalent of saying Angron and Russ are just mindless savages or that Guilliman or boring. He absolutely had second thoughts on all of this and in later books we can see him ignoring Erebus and Kor Pharon and even saying the gods themselves aren't always right. I also disagree about him turning away from the Emperor due to his pride as from my readings it doesn't seem like he is as much a slave to his pride as say Horus. The destruction on Monarchia was the catalyst for him realizing that maybe the Emperor isn't a being worth worshiping. His advisers took advantage of his weak mental state to put him on the path to finding the true gods of the galaxy. It wasn't pride that led to him losing faith in the emperor, it was a shattering of everything he believed in.

Plus, if we actually believe Ingethel, Lorgar was kept in the Warp and moulded by the Pantheon. She herself flags up - and Argel Talk keeps wondering about - the Word Bearers' proclivity for excessive killing, which shocked all their saner cousins at one time or another.

This was already mentioned but IF is the key statement there. I believe much of what the Daemons show their prey throughout the books is probably truth but I think it is changed in subtle but extremely important ways. The Colchisian runes on the incubation pods for example, or when Horus is shown the scene the hint that the Emperor may have smiled slightly after they were scattered. Lies are most effective when they are mostly truth and Daemons are probably the most skilled lairs in existence.

I'm not convinced The Emperor planned or wanted the HH to happen. I'm also not convinced He wanted to get rid of the Legions either. There are too many Xeno species to leave Humanity unprotected.

I used to think this was a likely possibility but as I said after Master of Mankind I lean the other way.

Hey all! I just posted this over in the CSM forum Word Bearers topic but after thinking about it I figured it fits in this section a lot better. Just making a couple edits so it makes more sense here

I'm reading through The First Heretic again and it brought up a couple questions that I haven't found answer to.

1: Why did the Emperor even make Lorgar the way he is in the first place? Even at the time he was very secular and considered religion to be one of humanities' greatest evils so why design a Primarch that is predisposed to worship? Yeah sure the planet he ended up on obviously contributed but even before Lorgar was found the Word Bearers showed similar signs so it seems to be in their genes.

2: The very question that Lorgar himself asks Magnus: why wait until now to destroy his faith? Why let him crusade so long converting planets to his Word? Even after all the various HH books I am still not sure.

Maybe the Emperor foresaw that the Heresy had to happen and knew this would be the catalyst? After reading Master of Mankind that seems less likely to me.

IMO Lorgar ended up as one of the ultimate villains of the Heresy and was manipulated far less into his position than Horus, but he's still one of the most tragic figures as well easily ranking up there with Magnus. Magnus at least damned himself, and his legion by extension, long before Prospero burned.

1. Lorgar and his legion were predisposed to fanatical belief, not worship. The idea of worshipping gods was broght to the legion by Lorgar, Imperial Heralds were fanatical in their devotion to the Imperial Truth. It is specifically mentioned, in Aurelian, I believe, that Chaos Gods did something to Lorgar while he was in the Warp, and that's why he arrived at Colchis later than his brother Primarchs did on their homeworlds. Lorgar's need for divinity was engineered, but not by the Emperor, but his opposition.

2. The second is solely ADB's description of the situation. The figure of one hundred years is not collaborated by any other source, to my knowledge. It definetely wasn't there in Collected Visions. Indeed, FW book two of HH series is implicitly against it, as it explicitly mentions that Lorgar hid his beliefs in early decades of being returned to the legion, and that it took decades for Imperial Heralds to be transformed into Word Bearers. And even then, the excess in their faith was gradual, not sudden. It took time for the Emperor to notice, and then he investigated, and when his investigation yielded results, he descended upon Word Bearers like a ton of bricks.

To be honest, while I consider The First Heretic to be a decent book, the depiction of the Emperor and Custodes was always the weakest point of it for me. Honestly. The depiction of Lorgar's chastisement creates a picture of the Emperor being very clearly in the wrong, because the more unsavoury aspects of Word Bearers activities (like the fact that conversion to the Lectitio Divinitatus wasn't peaceful, and involved whole massacres of unbelievers) are omitted, and for all intents and purpoeses, Lorgar worlds are depicted positively. It really has the undertones of "How dare you create paradises, Lorgar!" going for it, and it reduced Emperor's legitimacy in the matter, especially when combined with the ludicrous hundred years timeline that just serves to make the Emperor look further incompetent. Combine that with the fact that nobody manages to convincingly challenge Lorgar on the fact that he has been wronged, and it creates a very one sided portrait of the situation.

And then twenty Custodes are deceived and stringed along for fifty years. Sigh.

1 is a good point although I am still somewhat skeptical. Surely the Emperor has seen many instances throughout human history of zealots acting with religious fervor even when their belief is secular? I feel like a being as intelligent as the Emperor should have foreseen this result just based on his own insight.

As far as 2: Of course this is just one author's depiction, but isn't that the case with the Forge World books as well? I actually trust what is contained in the HH novels more than the FW books (with a couple exceptions) since they are actually describing the events as they are happening. The FW books are written as if written my an Imperial Scholar writing a history book. Something as simple as calling the traitor legions traitors shows they have an Imperial bias.

A lot of this, I think, assumes a skill at genetic engineering the Emperor may simply not of had. The Emperor was a genius and immensely powerful psyker but he sttill could not take humanity to the heights of the Dark Age of Technology, if he could then why even research the webway for years? he would of deciphered it in a matter of months,he would of never even had researchers in the Imperial Dungeon anyways when he simply knew so much.

But the Emperor was still striving for the pinnacle of knowledge rather then already being there, I think that the flaws inherent in the Primarchs were simply unintended rather then something he put in as a failsafe or grand design.

This is a very interesting point and something I hadn't ever actually thought of. I do have one issue though: wouldn't the Emperor have actually lived through the golden age and thus wouldn't he know himself how to recreate the lost technology? I wonder how much of this lost tech was actually the result of relying on true AI, something that could explain why the Emperor wouldn't want to recreate it?

IMO Lorgar ended up as one of the ultimate villains of the Heresy and was manipulated far less into his position than Horus, but he's still one of the most tragic figures as well easily ranking up there with Magnus. Magnus at least damned himself, and his legion by extension, long before Prospero burned.

I also wanted to comment on this whenever I got the time, since it's been awhile since i'v dumped just one gigantic analysis of something on this forum and i'm feeling in the right mood(Sleep deprived.) to conjure something up about my personal opinion with this.

I think that the most tragic part of the Chaos Primarchs is the universe they were thrust into more then anything else, what damned them was all the good intentions for the world around them in a universe that couldn't ever sustain that idealism. Lorgar is the pinnacle of this, but all the Primarchs who turned traitor were thoughtful visionaries(Even Angron, who could of been so much more had the nails not been pounded into their head.) in a way they emphasize the hubris that the Emperor himself had that he could guide the entire human race or had a little too much humanity in them. Whether it's Magnus wanting to cure the universes ills through sorcery, Fulgrims fear of failing himself and humanity(Which has a sort of ironic echo when I read Fulgrim after Master of Mankind.), Angrons realization he worked for a bloodsoaked tyrant to butcher innocents, or countless other thoughts and actions which planted the seeds of Chaos in their heart.

None of these things came from a place of evil, they came from things designed to be weapons having a bit too much sentience built into them. To an extent I can understand, even root for, the Chaos Primarchs/Legions despite all the horror they inflict. Imagine being someone like Fulgrim or Horus who tried to create their legionnaires into something more and thought they could reshape the galaxy into something powerful and beautiful, imagine becoming convinced that your legion was nothing more but a tool to be used and discarded, all the blood you spent all these children press ganged into your armies would be laid to waste for a species that wouldn't appreciate you, that you were like the Thunder Warriors fighting for a galaxy that you could never actually exist in harmony with, that you might be wiped from memory and pass into the nothingness while a race that couldn't fend for itself grew fat and content off the blood of you and the sons you helped create.

People oversimplify it into 'daddy issues' but even when you disregard what might of been lies fed to them by Chaos I think that any thoughtful being would look at the world they were creating, the way their legions were treated, what happened in the past, what may happen again, and be absolutely horrified at their existence. Perhaps that sudden self awareness is exactly why the Thunder Warriors were purged, Chaos I think just accelerated the process for them, I at least don't think I would need any of Lorgars Twilight Zone Ray Bradbury Friday the 13th Voodoo crap magic to convince me to turn on the Emperor if I ever thought I had a chance to take him down.

That I think is what makes all the Chaos Primarchs equally tragic, in another setting they would of been heroes, but...well...this is Warhammer 40k.

Thanks for this insight! This is why I love this hobby and this forum ;). I will say that I dunno how much I sympathize with Kurze. I understand how he acts is definitely influenced by his visions and where he grew up but he is still basically a serial killer.

[Loesh]

Kurze was completely, utterly, unrepentently psychotic by the standards of modern morality without a doubt. But even with him I don't see it as much different from how the Emperor viewed the galaxy.

 

He'll kill ten men to save a hundred, a hundred to save a thousand, a thousand to save a billion, and a billion to save everyone. When your father is exterminating entire races for humanity and when it's all you ever knew, it seems perfectly sane. I view Konrad as the equivalent to someone with a mental disorder being drafted into the military. He needed help to control his visions, and control himself, but instead he was told to keep doing what he was doing and even got a small army to help out.

[MrDarth151]

 

1 is a good point although I am still somewhat skeptical. Surely the Emperor has seen many instances throughout human history of zealots acting with religious fervor even when their belief is secular? I feel like a being as intelligent as the Emperor should have foreseen this result just based on his own insight.

 

The Emperor runs into classical problem of "Genius written by ordinary men". There is a lot of things the Emperor should have done. At this point, frankly, this is all just damage mitigation. He worked as a character when Horus Heresy was a vague background event. It was all downhill from there.

 

I will go ahead and say it: I don't think there is another character who suffered as much as He did when it comes detailing Horus Heresy. It all started to make less and less sense as the time went on.

 

 

As far as 2: Of course this is just one author's depiction, but isn't that the case with the Forge World books as well? I actually trust what is contained in the HH novels more than the FW books (with a couple exceptions) since they are actually describing the events as they are happening. The FW books are written as if written my an Imperial Scholar writing a history book. Something as simple as calling the traitor legions traitors shows they have an Imperial bias.

 

I usually also take the novels over FW, but in this specific case, The Emperor of Mankind leisurely ignoring Lorgar openly flaunting his laws for a century makes me cringe and completely breaks my SoD, so I prefer versions that make more sense to me. That's all there is to it.

[ronin_cse]

 

 

1 is a good point although I am still somewhat skeptical. Surely the Emperor has seen many instances throughout human history of zealots acting with religious fervor even when their belief is secular? I feel like a being as intelligent as the Emperor should have foreseen this result just based on his own insight.

 

The Emperor runs into classical problem of "Genius written by ordinary men". There is a lot of things the Emperor should have done. At this point, frankly, this is all just damage mitigation. He worked as a character when Horus Heresy was a vague background event. It was all downhill from there.

 

I will go ahead and say it: I don't think there is another character who suffered as much as He did when it comes detailing Horus Heresy. It all started to make less and less sense as the time went on.

 

 

As far as 2: Of course this is just one author's depiction, but isn't that the case with the Forge World books as well? I actually trust what is contained in the HH novels more than the FW books (with a couple exceptions) since they are actually describing the events as they are happening. The FW books are written as if written my an Imperial Scholar writing a history book. Something as simple as calling the traitor legions traitors shows they have an Imperial bias.

 

I usually also take the novels over FW, but in this specific case, The Emperor of Mankind leisurely ignoring Lorgar openly flaunting his laws for a century makes me cringe and completely breaks my SoD, so I prefer versions that make more sense to me. That's all there is to it.

 

 

Regardless of if he ignored Lorgar's behavior during the early crusade, or didn't actually know, wouldn't he for sure have seen everything when he found Lorgar? Even if we can't take Lorgar's own account as truth can't we still assume that the planet and Lorgar would have put on massive religious ceremonies for His arrival?

[MrDarth151]

 

Regardless of if he ignored Lorgar's behavior during the early crusade, or didn't actually know, wouldn't he for sure have seen everything when he found Lorgar? Even if we can't take Lorgar's own account as truth can't we still assume that the planet and Lorgar would have put on massive religious ceremonies for His arrival?

 

That's why I say that FW version makes more sense. In it, Lorgar, at least in the beginning, seemingly renounced his religious beginnings and toned down his "Daddy is a god!" spiel to nearly non-existent levels. So I would say Emps filled it under "Loyal son renounces his mistakes and strives to be better".

[ronin_cse]

 

 

Regardless of if he ignored Lorgar's behavior during the early crusade, or didn't actually know, wouldn't he for sure have seen everything when he found Lorgar? Even if we can't take Lorgar's own account as truth can't we still assume that the planet and Lorgar would have put on massive religious ceremonies for His arrival?

 

That's why I say that FW version makes more sense. In it, Lorgar, at least in the beginning, seemingly renounced his religious beginnings and toned down his "Daddy is a god!" spiel to nearly non-existent levels. So I would say Emps filled it under "Loyal son renounces his mistakes and strives to be better".

 

 

See that's precisely why I think the FW is misleading. Of course someone who wants to paint the Emperor and the Imperium in a better light would write it like that. We can't have people thinking the Emperor manipulated his sons for His own gain ;)

[b1soul]

 

I always thought the Salamanders' darkness was gene-seed reaction to radiation

As for their "ethnicity/race", I thought it was unknown...not necessarily European (or Caucasian)

 

 

It thought it was stated to be combination of both? And I'm fairly sure that natives of Nocturne are black skinned, or at least described as such.

Yeah...I could be wrong

 

As I recall, the Nocturneans are dark skinned/dusky...and upon ascension, they typically become an inhuman void black

 

I had no idea about the African cultural influences in earlier editions.

 

In light of that, I think current Salamanders could still quite easily be interpreted as of ancient Afrik stock.

 

I just think it's more obvious the WS are space Mongols (and the SW are space Vikings) and a bit less obvious the Sallies are space Africans

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Kurze was completely, utterly, unrepentently psychotic by the standards of modern morality without a doubt. But even with him I don't see it as much different from how the Emperor viewed the galaxy.

 

He'll kill ten men to save a hundred, a hundred to save a thousand, a thousand to save a billion, and a billion to save everyone. When your father is exterminating entire races for humanity and when it's all you ever knew, it seems perfectly sane. I view Konrad as the equivalent to someone with a mental disorder being drafted into the military. He needed help to control his visions, and control himself, but instead he was told to keep doing what he was doing and even got a small army to help out.

 

This is the main problem with the traitor Primarchs, the Emperor could of saved all of them if he gave a damn.

 

Look at Angron, the Emperor never travels alone, he had ships in orbit and could of come down and saved Angron and his slave army. Either by fighting by his side with the Custodes or by talking down the city forces and threatening to turn their cities to ash. He had options but took the easiest path and basicly kidnapped Angron while letting his people die.

 

The Emperor could of helped Kurze, taught him control, the help he needed. Just the Emperor didn't care, he saw all his son's as just weapons and tools and left them to it. Some of the primarchs adapted to this better than others but the Emperor was so focused on the bigger picture, he ignored the cracks slowly building.

 

Look at Petuarbo, he was a true genius, a Leonardo da Vinci figure with so much promise and hidden talents. However all the Emperor needed was a siege master and that's all he was allowed to be.

 

Now it's not ALL the Emperor's fault, Guilliman could of been like Petuarbo but he found the balance between war and culture building. However the Emperor is at fault for ignoring his son's and obsessing with his grand plan.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

Kurze was completely, utterly, unrepentently psychotic by the standards of modern morality without a doubt. But even with him I don't see it as much different from how the Emperor viewed the galaxy.

 

He'll kill ten men to save a hundred, a hundred to save a thousand, a thousand to save a billion, and a billion to save everyone. When your father is exterminating entire races for humanity and when it's all you ever knew, it seems perfectly sane. I view Konrad as the equivalent to someone with a mental disorder being drafted into the military. He needed help to control his visions, and control himself, but instead he was told to keep doing what he was doing and even got a small army to help out.

This is the main problem with the traitor Primarchs, the Emperor could of saved all of them if he gave a damn.

 

Look at Angron, the Emperor never travels alone, he had ships in orbit and could of come down and saved Angron and his slave army. Either by fighting by his side with the Custodes or by talking down the city forces and threatening to turn their cities to ash. He had options but took the easiest path and basicly kidnapped Angron while letting his people die.

 

The Emperor could of helped Kurze, taught him control, the help he needed. Just the Emperor didn't care, he saw all his son's as just weapons and tools and left them to it. Some of the primarchs adapted to this better than others but the Emperor was so focused on the bigger picture, he ignored the cracks slowly building.

 

Look at Petuarbo, he was a true genius, a Leonardo da Vinci figure with so much promise and hidden talents. However all the Emperor needed was a siege master and that's all he was allowed to be.

 

Now it's not ALL the Emperor's fault, Guilliman could of been like Petuarbo but he found the balance between war and culture building. However the Emperor is at fault for ignoring his son's and obsessing with his grand plan.

1. who got time for that? the clock is ticking, gotta get that webway ready.

 

2. who says the emp is any good at "teaching control"? i know some foster parents and social workers who dedicate their lives to helping foster kids and still "fail" (i actually believe they have a positive impact but i'm just basing this on the definition laid out here).

[Ranwulf]

 

 

Kurze was completely, utterly, unrepentently psychotic by the standards of modern morality without a doubt. But even with him I don't see it as much different from how the Emperor viewed the galaxy.

 

He'll kill ten men to save a hundred, a hundred to save a thousand, a thousand to save a billion, and a billion to save everyone. When your father is exterminating entire races for humanity and when it's all you ever knew, it seems perfectly sane. I view Konrad as the equivalent to someone with a mental disorder being drafted into the military. He needed help to control his visions, and control himself, but instead he was told to keep doing what he was doing and even got a small army to help out.

This is the main problem with the traitor Primarchs, the Emperor could of saved all of them if he gave a damn.

 

Look at Angron, the Emperor never travels alone, he had ships in orbit and could of come down and saved Angron and his slave army. Either by fighting by his side with the Custodes or by talking down the city forces and threatening to turn their cities to ash. He had options but took the easiest path and basicly kidnapped Angron while letting his people die.

 

The Emperor could of helped Kurze, taught him control, the help he needed. Just the Emperor didn't care, he saw all his son's as just weapons and tools and left them to it. Some of the primarchs adapted to this better than others but the Emperor was so focused on the bigger picture, he ignored the cracks slowly building.

 

Look at Petuarbo, he was a true genius, a Leonardo da Vinci figure with so much promise and hidden talents. However all the Emperor needed was a siege master and that's all he was allowed to be.

 

Now it's not ALL the Emperor's fault, Guilliman could of been like Petuarbo but he found the balance between war and culture building. However the Emperor is at fault for ignoring his son's and obsessing with his grand plan.

1. who got time for that? the clock is ticking, gotta get that webway ready.

 

2. who says the emp is any good at "teaching control"? i know some foster parents and social workers who dedicate their lives to helping foster kids and still "fail" (i actually believe they have a positive impact but i'm just basing this on the definition laid out here).

 

They are his generals, and even then, there is a point where children should stop blaming their parents for all the misgivings of their life.

 

Ran

[A D-B]

 

Kurze was completely, utterly, unrepentently psychotic by the standards of modern morality without a doubt. But even with him I don't see it as much different from how the Emperor viewed the galaxy.

 

He'll kill ten men to save a hundred, a hundred to save a thousand, a thousand to save a billion, and a billion to save everyone. When your father is exterminating entire races for humanity and when it's all you ever knew, it seems perfectly sane. I view Konrad as the equivalent to someone with a mental disorder being drafted into the military. He needed help to control his visions, and control himself, but instead he was told to keep doing what he was doing and even got a small army to help out.

 

This is the main problem with the traitor Primarchs, the Emperor could of saved all of them if he gave a damn.

 

That's totally true... but not the whole truth. There's no definitive evidence saying he didn't give a damn, for example, just that he apparently didn't act and react the exact way several of his sons thought he should have done. But that's equally arguably on them, not him. Even then, that's not my main point, though. 

 

The meta-point of this is the core of why it's such a difficult thing to bring retroactive sense to stuff that has never really made sense. The primarchs' falls were unexplained, context-less myths based on classic stories or sparse text never designed to be deeply explored. They fell because the story has said for 30 years that they fell. I love 40K as much as anyone on Earth (arguably moreso since I practically dedicate my life to it) but I'm far from blind to the inconsistencies in the lore or the stuff that suffers when you drag it into the light (which is why a lot of my novels avoid dragging too much into the light, especially compared with the definitive answers they might otherwise give). 

 

So you're left with things like the Emperor not helping Angron, or doing X, Y, and Z with Traitor Primarch A or B, and to us it makes no sense. But in the mythological context of these being shrouded semi-myths based on godlings, they're all right at home. Hardly anything the Greek or Roman or Indian or Christian gods did ever "made sense" in any real context. But they did those things because the point of the story was that they did them. They were lessons or examples, without the benefit of sense or explanation. Why doesn't the Emperor help Angron? Because it's the story of Spartacus. That's why. Why doesn't Curze get the help he needs? Because it's Heart of Darkness and Apocalypse Now. That's why. Those are the answers. 

 

You can retroactively bring them into context and make them make sense, and sometimes that works and sometimes that doesn't; and sometimes Explanation 1 works for Reader A, and sometimes Explanation B works for Reader 2. 40K has the advantage of being subjective future history, so the variety of explanations and perspectives is somewhat baked into the setting as The Point.

 

Another element is that things change as the series goes on. Horus Rising, as divine as it is, is practically written about a different setting compared to the newest novels and Forge World books. From Legion sizes, Legion homeworld cultures, organisation, etc. etc. Primarchs behave in ways that don't always align with later presentations in the series with another author, or with their presentations in the Forge World books - because later books have the benefit of more planning, more oversight, and things actually being decided and settled on the team itself. Things change because things get sorted out and decided. If Horus Rising or Prospero Burns or Prince of Crows (and whatever else) were written today, I daresay they'd all look very different indeed. It'd be weird if they didn't. 

 

Please note, I've said since long before the public knew Forge World were doing the Heresy, that I wish FW had done it first and the novels had followed. Alan Bligh and John French, who write those sourcebooks, are two of the best brains GW has. Please also note, Laurie (and his much-needed oversight) joined the team pretty late as these things go, and a lot of balls were already in the air, conflicting and making less sense than they might have done. I doubt any author has zero regrets or things they wouldn't change. I doubt even Alan Bligh has none. It is what it is. 

 

Something else very much worth pointing out, however, is that it isn't over. Sometimes, there's a bit of a joke among the editors and authors that certain readers will lose their various tempers or assume the worst over something, no different from watching Vader cutting off Luke's hand at the end of The Empire Strikes Back and saying "But I thought Luke was supposed to be a Jedi who would face Vader and win - this doesn't make any sense!"

 

No, of course it doesn't. It's not over. Characters have journeys. Actions have explanations. Narratives have arcs.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

Kurze was completely, utterly, unrepentently psychotic by the standards of modern morality without a doubt. But even with him I don't see it as much different from how the Emperor viewed the galaxy.

 

He'll kill ten men to save a hundred, a hundred to save a thousand, a thousand to save a billion, and a billion to save everyone. When your father is exterminating entire races for humanity and when it's all you ever knew, it seems perfectly sane. I view Konrad as the equivalent to someone with a mental disorder being drafted into the military. He needed help to control his visions, and control himself, but instead he was told to keep doing what he was doing and even got a small army to help out.

This is the main problem with the traitor Primarchs, the Emperor could of saved all of them if he gave a damn.

 

Look at Angron, the Emperor never travels alone, he had ships in orbit and could of come down and saved Angron and his slave army. Either by fighting by his side with the Custodes or by talking down the city forces and threatening to turn their cities to ash. He had options but took the easiest path and basicly kidnapped Angron while letting his people die.

 

The Emperor could of helped Kurze, taught him control, the help he needed. Just the Emperor didn't care, he saw all his son's as just weapons and tools and left them to it. Some of the primarchs adapted to this better than others but the Emperor was so focused on the bigger picture, he ignored the cracks slowly building.

 

Look at Petuarbo, he was a true genius, a Leonardo da Vinci figure with so much promise and hidden talents. However all the Emperor needed was a siege master and that's all he was allowed to be.

 

Now it's not ALL the Emperor's fault, Guilliman could of been like Petuarbo but he found the balance between war and culture building. However the Emperor is at fault for ignoring his son's and obsessing with his grand plan.

1. who got time for that? the clock is ticking, gotta get that webway ready.

 

2. who says the emp is any good at "teaching control"? i know some foster parents and social workers who dedicate their lives to helping foster kids and still "fail" (i actually believe they have a positive impact but i'm just basing this on the definition laid out here).

 

They are his generals, and even then, there is a point where children should stop blaming their parents for all the misgivings of their life.

 

Ran

 

 

 

yeah. you can be fair and kind, lavish all the attention possible on someone and still not get the result you hope for.  there are always more forces at work than just "you and them". 

 

obi was a pretty decent mentor towards anakin, and while he does blame himself, there were circumstances outside of his control that led to his fall.

[Karthak]

 

 

Something else very much worth pointing out, however, is that it isn't over. Sometimes, there's a bit of a joke among the editors and authors that certain readers will lose their various tempers or assume the worst over something, no different from watching Vader cutting off Luke's hand at the end of The Empire Strikes Back and saying "But I thought Luke was supposed to be a Jedi who would face Vader and win - this doesn't make any sense!"

 

No, of course it doesn't. It's not over. Characters have journeys. Actions have explanations. Narratives have arcs.

 

Well, I hope we some day get an explanation for the Emperor treating Angron that way, if nothing else. With all the other traitor Primarchs, I can understand why the Big E acted the way he did, but snatching Angron away from his brothers and sisters like that? It's almost like he intentionally chose the option that would antagonise Angron the most.

[fluxdeluxe]

 

Something else very much worth pointing out, however, is that it isn't over. Sometimes, there's a bit of a joke among the editors and authors that certain readers will lose their various tempers or assume the worst over something, no different from watching Vader cutting off Luke's hand at the end of The Empire Strikes Back and saying "But I thought Luke was supposed to be a Jedi who would face Vader and win - this doesn't make any sense!"

 

No, of course it doesn't. It's not over. Characters have journeys. Actions have explanations. Narratives have arcs.

This is why I consistently don't get my knickers in a twist about the overarching plot of the HH there is so much left to tell and so many perfectly legitimate ways that these things can be resolved. Whether you like the way it's done or not is a matter of taste but the majority of the author group so far have worked hard to address inconsistencies in the story. Furthermore the inconsistencies in question in this thread are from a being that we barley understand, and really I don't think we will understand fully by the end of the heresy.

 

'To know the face of God is madness'

 

Because The emperor is the anathema and the character POV's are human or trans human, and to break the fourth wall a little, the readers themselves are human , we can never fully understand The emperor. In this sense The Emperor could be thought of as incomprehensible where the term incomprehensible is used with an older and less common sense, “unable to be fully understood.” This sense must be clearly distinguished from the more common meaning, “unable to be understood.” It isn't true to say that The Emperor is unable to be understood, but it is true to say that he cannot be understood fully or exhaustively

 

I've paraphrased the above from a theological text but I think it applies I'd be slightly disappointed if we had definitive answers on all issues at the end of the Heresy especially when you consider that the setting feeds into 40k. Indeed some answers appropriate resolution may not be within the heresy itself.

[ronin_cse]

 

 

 

Something else very much worth pointing out, however, is that it isn't over. Sometimes, there's a bit of a joke among the editors and authors that certain readers will lose their various tempers or assume the worst over something, no different from watching Vader cutting off Luke's hand at the end of The Empire Strikes Back and saying "But I thought Luke was supposed to be a Jedi who would face Vader and win - this doesn't make any sense!"

 

No, of course it doesn't. It's not over. Characters have journeys. Actions have explanations. Narratives have arcs.

 

Well, I hope we some day get an explanation for the Emperor treating Angron that way, if nothing else. With all the other traitor Primarchs, I can understand why the Big E acted the way he did, but snatching Angron away from his brothers and sisters like that? It's almost like he intentionally chose the option that would antagonise Angron the most.

 

 

Have you read Master of Mankind yet? Doesn't totally explain things but it hints at why he left Angron that way.

[Xisor]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Something else very much worth pointing out, however, is that it isn't over. Sometimes, there's a bit of a joke among the editors and authors that certain readers will lose their various tempers or assume the worst over something, no different from watching Vader cutting off Luke's hand at the end of The Empire Strikes Back and saying "But I thought Luke was supposed to be a Jedi who would face Vader and win - this doesn't make any sense!"

 

No, of course it doesn't. It's not over. Characters have journeys. Actions have explanations. Narratives have arcs.

 

Well, I hope we some day get an explanation for the Emperor treating Angron that way, if nothing else. With all the other traitor Primarchs, I can understand why the Big E acted the way he did, but snatching Angron away from his brothers and sisters like that? It's almost like he intentionally chose the option that would antagonise Angron the most.

Have you read Master of Mankind yet? Doesn't totally explain things but it hints at why he left Angron that way.

Indeed, it's... evocative of a rather satisfactory explanation, without so many details that it's too easy to poke daft holes in.

 

I forget how much I enjoyed your MoM, ADB.

 

 

 

 

(Sorry.)

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Not read MoM yet, bit behind on my HH book list.

 

I find the whole series bitter sweet. I started with GW back in 1992 and over the years spent many an hour in the pub with mates discussing these events, coming up with our own views and theories as the HH was evolved and drip fed over 40k editions and issues of white dwarf and then suddenly we have the whole thing being charted and mapped out.

 

On one hand, I really enjoy seeing these characters come to life, seeing Lorgar go from a mustache twirling 2d bad guy to a fleshed out and human character. In fact lorgar went from one of my least liked primarchs to one of my favourites after reading First Heretic.

 

On the other hand, It is strange seeing this stuff become canon and fleshed out with ideas and theories evolved over the years thrown out of the window (such as papa smurf's reasons for sitting out the Heresy).

[MrDarth151]

 

Something else very much worth pointing out, however, is that it isn't over. Sometimes, there's a bit of a joke among the editors and authors that certain readers will lose their various tempers or assume the worst over something, no different from watching Vader cutting off Luke's hand at the end of The Empire Strikes Back and saying "But I thought Luke was supposed to be a Jedi who would face Vader and win - this doesn't make any sense!"

 

No, of course it doesn't. It's not over. Characters have journeys. Actions have explanations. Narratives have arcs.

 

 

It is a bit different situation though. The Empire Strikes Back is in the middle of the trilogy, and we know that there is more stuff to it and after it, therefore judging it on its own merit is wrong, that is correct.

 

However, when people are claiming that HH doesn't make sense (in the case of the Emperor, especially), is because they have preconceived notions about how the characters should work. Horus Heresy is not finished as a series, but it is a novelisation of an event that is finished. The lore evolves and it was often conflicted to begin with. This creates the distinct impression of "that is not how this should work".

 

And then there is genuine characterisation troubles that plague the HH, but I disgress.

 

 

 

Because The emperor is the anathema and the character POV's are human or trans human, and to break the fourth wall a little, the readers themselves are human , we can never fully understand The emperor. In this sense The Emperor could be thought of as incomprehensible where the term incomprehensible is used with an older and less common sense, “unable to be fully understood.” This sense must be clearly distinguished from the more common meaning, “unable to be understood.” It isn't true to say that The Emperor is unable to be understood, but it is true to say that he cannot be understood fully or exhaustively

 

The problem with that is that the characterisation of the Emperor often veers into mundane. Authors will claim that he is incomprehensible in aspect, yet presented characterisation is painfully human... and often painfully average. The Emperor being beyond humanity will often be reduced to an inform attribute, which causes the "Emps is the incompetent idiot!" crowds to emerge.

[ronin_cse]

 

 

Something else very much worth pointing out, however, is that it isn't over. Sometimes, there's a bit of a joke among the editors and authors that certain readers will lose their various tempers or assume the worst over something, no different from watching Vader cutting off Luke's hand at the end of The Empire Strikes Back and saying "But I thought Luke was supposed to be a Jedi who would face Vader and win - this doesn't make any sense!"

 

No, of course it doesn't. It's not over. Characters have journeys. Actions have explanations. Narratives have arcs.

 

 

It is a bit different situation though. The Empire Strikes Back is in the middle of the trilogy, and we know that there is more stuff to it and after it, therefore judging it on its own merit is wrong, that is correct.

 

However, when people are claiming that HH doesn't make sense (in the case of the Emperor, especially), is because they have preconceived notions about how the characters should work. Horus Heresy is not finished as a series, but it is a novelisation of an event that is finished. The lore evolves and it was often conflicted to begin with. This creates the distinct impression of "that is not how this should work".

 

And then there is genuine characterisation troubles that plague the HH, but I disgress.

 

 

 

Because The emperor is the anathema and the character POV's are human or trans human, and to break the fourth wall a little, the readers themselves are human , we can never fully understand The emperor. In this sense The Emperor could be thought of as incomprehensible where the term incomprehensible is used with an older and less common sense, “unable to be fully understood.” This sense must be clearly distinguished from the more common meaning, “unable to be understood.” It isn't true to say that The Emperor is unable to be understood, but it is true to say that he cannot be understood fully or exhaustively

 

The problem with that is that the characterisation of the Emperor often veers into mundane. Authors will claim that he is incomprehensible in aspect, yet presented characterisation is painfully human... and often painfully average. The Emperor being beyond humanity will often be reduced to an inform attribute, which causes the "Emps is the incompetent idiot!" crowds to emerge.

 

 

I would argue that the Emperor is both beyond humanity AND painfully human. He is so far beyond us as far as mental power that his thought process is in fact incomprehensible, but his though process is in fact still human based (probably?). That's what makes him so interesting IMO, he is the ultimate incarnation of humanity with all our positives and our negatives extended to the extreme. We can see this repeated to a lesser extent with each of the primarchs as well.

[A D-B]

 

 

 

 

 

Something else very much worth pointing out, however, is that it isn't over. Sometimes, there's a bit of a joke among the editors and authors that certain readers will lose their various tempers or assume the worst over something, no different from watching Vader cutting off Luke's hand at the end of The Empire Strikes Back and saying "But I thought Luke was supposed to be a Jedi who would face Vader and win - this doesn't make any sense!"

 

No, of course it doesn't. It's not over. Characters have journeys. Actions have explanations. Narratives have arcs.

Well, I hope we some day get an explanation for the Emperor treating Angron that way, if nothing else. With all the other traitor Primarchs, I can understand why the Big E acted the way he did, but snatching Angron away from his brothers and sisters like that? It's almost like he intentionally chose the option that would antagonise Angron the most.

Have you read Master of Mankind yet? Doesn't totally explain things but it hints at why he left Angron that way.

Indeed, it's... evocative of a rather satisfactory explanation, without so many details that it's too easy to poke daft holes in.

 

I forget how much I enjoyed your MoM, ADB.

 

 

 

 

(Sorry.)

 

 

"Never apologise, never explain."

[A D-B]

 

 

Something else very much worth pointing out, however, is that it isn't over. Sometimes, there's a bit of a joke among the editors and authors that certain readers will lose their various tempers or assume the worst over something, no different from watching Vader cutting off Luke's hand at the end of The Empire Strikes Back and saying "But I thought Luke was supposed to be a Jedi who would face Vader and win - this doesn't make any sense!"

 

No, of course it doesn't. It's not over. Characters have journeys. Actions have explanations. Narratives have arcs.

 

 

It is a bit different situation though. The Empire Strikes Back is in the middle of the trilogy, and we know that there is more stuff to it and after it, therefore judging it on its own merit is wrong, that is correct.

 

However, when people are claiming that HH doesn't make sense (in the case of the Emperor, especially), is because they have preconceived notions about how the characters should work. Horus Heresy is not finished as a series, but it is a novelisation of an event that is finished. The lore evolves and it was often conflicted to begin with. This creates the distinct impression of "that is not how this should work".

 

I quite literally said all of that in my other points, though. 

 

The whole series would've benefited so beautifully from an overarching plan from Day 1. I remember when I joined about 1/3 of the way in, when a lot was already covered or reserved, and I was dead surprised at how little cohesion there was at that point. It was still in the gold rush phase of getting what you could and detailing it with a relatively free reign. I was lucky, in a sense, because even The First Heretic was run past Laurie (before Laurie even officially joined) and through a couple of other IP boffins I'm lucky enough to call pals. That's not to say there's nothing I wouldn't change, because I'd change a mountain of stuff in any of my books and probably moreso in my HH novels since they're closer to the start of a series where the early books plainly show a different perspective, but I still count my blessings on that score.

[Indefragable]

I remember when I joined about 1/3 of the way in, when a lot was already covered or reserved, and I was dead surprised at how little cohesion there was at that point. It was still in the gold rush phase of getting what you could and detailing it with a relatively free reign.

A D-B: does the BL (and even GW/FW as well) have "champions" on its staff for each Primarch/Legion/Faction/whatnot? Someone/people tasked with respresenting the character/faction's interests, per se? Or are names drawn out of a hat? Or is there some sort of literary cage match where everyone writes 500 words and the "winner" is chosen by vote?

 

I am curious since at times it definitely feels like some children are more special than others.

 

Thanks!

[A D-B]

 

I remember when I joined about 1/3 of the way in, when a lot was already covered or reserved, and I was dead surprised at how little cohesion there was at that point. It was still in the gold rush phase of getting what you could and detailing it with a relatively free reign.

A D-B: does the BL (and even GW/FW as well) have "champions" on its staff for each Primarch/Legion/Faction/whatnot? Someone/people tasked with respresenting the character/faction's interests, per se? Or are names drawn out of a hat? Or is there some sort of literary cage match where everyone writes 500 words and the "winner" is chosen by vote?

 

I am curious since at times it definitely feels like some children are more special than others.

 

Thanks!

 

Not as such, but until about halfway through, a lot had been "licked and touched" to reserve it, to quote one of the editors. If you'd written a lot of one faction in 40K or early in the HH, there was an obvious sales advantage and gentleperson's respect in letting them carry on. The example I use is that I went to my first HH meeting hoping to pitch for Prospero, the Ultramarines, or the Blood Angels, and they were all were either already in progress or quite fairly reserved by the guys that had been on the team way longer than me, and had histories with them in 40K. Similarly, when I joined, the Night Lords were tentatively "auto-reserved" for me, in the same way. (Please note, though, I repeatedly said I was cool with anyone else doing the Night Lords.)

 

It's a lot more fast and loose now, but as the HH draws to a close, it's either mostly set in stone anyway, or the team is so huge now that you couldn't reserve anything with any sense of fairness. 

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

I remember when I joined about 1/3 of the way in, when a lot was already covered or reserved, and I was dead surprised at how little cohesion there was at that point. It was still in the gold rush phase of getting what you could and detailing it with a relatively free reign.

A D-B: does the BL (and even GW/FW as well) have "champions" on its staff for each Primarch/Legion/Faction/whatnot? Someone/people tasked with respresenting the character/faction's interests, per se? Or are names drawn out of a hat? Or is there some sort of literary cage match where everyone writes 500 words and the "winner" is chosen by vote?

 

I am curious since at times it definitely feels like some children are more special than others.

 

Thanks!

Not as such, but until about halfway through, a lot had been "licked and touched" to reserve it, to quote one of the editors. If you'd written a lot of one faction in 40K or early in the HH, there was an obvious sales advantage and gentleperson's respect in letting them carry on. The example I use is that I went to my first HH meeting hoping to pitch for Prospero, the Ultramarines, or the Blood Angels, and they were all were either already in progress or quite fairly reserved by the guys that had been on the team way longer than me, and had histories with them in 40K. Similarly, when I joined, the Night Lords were tentatively "auto-reserved" for me, in the same way. (Please note, though, I repeatedly said I was cool with anyone else doing the Night Lords.)

 

It's a lot more fast and loose now, but as the HH draws to a close, it's either mostly set in stone anyway, or the team is so huge now that you couldn't reserve anything with any sense of fairness.

regarding what you said earlier about "star legions" that sell no matter what...was there a conscious effort during the heresy planning to spread the love? to my knowledge there's only been one book fully devoted to say the BA in the entire run

[Loesh]

There's advantage and disadvantage to that. I don't mind personally because for as much as people hate Nick Kymes work, bouncing between Nick Kyme, James Swallow, Dan Abnett, Graham Mcneil, and Ben Counter for one book series would result in a barely cognizant final view of a Legion.

 

Then again, i'm biased because it looks like Josh Reynolds is the new golden boy for Third Legion and the stuff he's churned out so far is stupidly good.