So why Lorgar?

[Indefragable]

 

 

 

 

I remember when I joined about 1/3 of the way in, when a lot was already covered or reserved, and I was dead surprised at how little cohesion there was at that point. It was still in the gold rush phase of getting what you could and detailing it with a relatively free reign.

A D-B: does the BL (and even GW/FW as well) have "champions" on its staff for each Primarch/Legion/Faction/whatnot? Someone/people tasked with respresenting the character/faction's interests, per se? Or are names drawn out of a hat? Or is there some sort of literary cage match where everyone writes 500 words and the "winner" is chosen by vote?

 

I am curious since at times it definitely feels like some children are more special than others.

 

Thanks!

Not as such, but until about halfway through, a lot had been "licked and touched" to reserve it, to quote one of the editors. If you'd written a lot of one faction in 40K or early in the HH, there was an obvious sales advantage and gentleperson's respect in letting them carry on. The example I use is that I went to my first HH meeting hoping to pitch for Prospero, the Ultramarines, or the Blood Angels, and they were all were either already in progress or quite fairly reserved by the guys that had been on the team way longer than me, and had histories with them in 40K. Similarly, when I joined, the Night Lords were tentatively "auto-reserved" for me, in the same way. (Please note, though, I repeatedly said I was cool with anyone else doing the Night Lords.)

 

It's a lot more fast and loose now, but as the HH draws to a close, it's either mostly set in stone anyway, or the team is so huge now that you couldn't reserve anything with any sense of fairness.

regarding what you said earlier about "star legions" that sell no matter what...was there a conscious effort during the heresy planning to spread the love? to my knowledge there's only been one book fully devoted to say the BA in the entire run

I wasn't entirely fishing for this point, but I have to piggyback on it. It does seem quite strange how little has been written about the IX in 40+ books. Strange for any Legion, especially a "big four," exponentially so for one traditionally so tied up with the events of the HH, what with the whole brotherly wrestling match above Terra. Can't deny it makes me nervous. I suppose that sentiment plays right into A D-B's comment on people's tempers mid way through the meta story.

 

Thanks for the answer, A D-B.

[A D-B]

 

 

 

I remember when I joined about 1/3 of the way in, when a lot was already covered or reserved, and I was dead surprised at how little cohesion there was at that point. It was still in the gold rush phase of getting what you could and detailing it with a relatively free reign.

A D-B: does the BL (and even GW/FW as well) have "champions" on its staff for each Primarch/Legion/Faction/whatnot? Someone/people tasked with respresenting the character/faction's interests, per se? Or are names drawn out of a hat? Or is there some sort of literary cage match where everyone writes 500 words and the "winner" is chosen by vote?

 

I am curious since at times it definitely feels like some children are more special than others.

 

Thanks!

Not as such, but until about halfway through, a lot had been "licked and touched" to reserve it, to quote one of the editors. If you'd written a lot of one faction in 40K or early in the HH, there was an obvious sales advantage and gentleperson's respect in letting them carry on. The example I use is that I went to my first HH meeting hoping to pitch for Prospero, the Ultramarines, or the Blood Angels, and they were all were either already in progress or quite fairly reserved by the guys that had been on the team way longer than me, and had histories with them in 40K. Similarly, when I joined, the Night Lords were tentatively "auto-reserved" for me, in the same way. (Please note, though, I repeatedly said I was cool with anyone else doing the Night Lords.)

 

It's a lot more fast and loose now, but as the HH draws to a close, it's either mostly set in stone anyway, or the team is so huge now that you couldn't reserve anything with any sense of fairness.

regarding what you said earlier about "star legions" that sell no matter what...was there a conscious effort during the heresy planning to spread the love? to my knowledge there's only been one book fully devoted to say the BA in the entire run

 

No, not really. The Blood Angels were reserved until Signus Prime took place (which ended up being delayed a lot, through no one's fault), then there was an air of "Well, there's not much else that they did until the Siege..." after that among the team. Coupled with (personally speaking) already being tied up in Betrayer and The Master of Mankind. And by that point I didn't want to give up TMoM because it was my shot at getting to write some actual famous canon; the stuff I'd grown up knowing, or had been in the lore for ages.

 

I tried to make the Blood Angels (led by Amit) the antagonists in Betrayer long before it was about Ultramar, etc., but that was a no-go - I originally envisaged Betrayer as being the World Eaters against the Blood Angels, as two sides of the rage coin. Then later I tried a Blood Angel short story, but that ended up becoming Zephon's journey, in The Master of Mankind. 

 

I'm not sure what the landscape looks like now, re: the Blood Angels. Something to discuss at the next HH meeting. But as that long-winded explanation shows, nah, it wasn't really a matter of planning. Jim had every right to reserve them until Signus Prime (no better event to first show them!), and after that - even with Laurie on board - timetables were in flux and the series went in unexpected directions, sometimes (among many other reasons) forced that way by some of us not delivering anything on time, or whatever else.

 

There are several books in the series that would probably never have existed with a full-on plan from Day 1, and many unwritten books that would have.

[b1soul]

Hi Aaron, could you please share a bit more detail about your original plan to pit the WE against the BA? Namely...

 

1. What set-up did you originally conceive?

 

2. How did you envisage Sanguinius and his sons as a foil (or reflection) to Angron and his? What themes did you want to explore? How much of Amit's savagery originated fron his primarch?

 

3. What traits or characteristics did you find most fascinating about the BA, as a BL writer or just as a fan?

 

4. Why was this WE/BA idea ultimately shot down?

 

5. After all had been said and done, did you feel that the Shadow Crusade against Ultramar was a better way to approach the WE (i.e. better than your original intention of having the BA involved?)

[Brother Captain Kezef]

This is a problem with the BA and also the SW, DA and TS. In the original HH lore they didn't play much of a role until the end.

 

The HH authors are fleshing out as best they can, the BA's role in Imperium Secundus for example and the ongoing tragedy of the SW.

 

However they are tied to the original story, which is basicly Horus isolating/destroying most of the loyalists so he can hit Terra with overwhelming force. To shoe-horn the other legions into the tale would take away from the basic idea that Horus was a strategic genius that gave himself the best shot he could at Terra, hitting the homeworld with all the traitor legions while only 3 loyalist legions could muster for it's defence.

 

Perhaps there is scope, after the HH series, for a great crusade series of books to give all the legions more limelight on an equal footing?

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Hi Aaron, could you please share a bit more detail about your original plan to pit the WE against the BA? Namely...

 

1. What set-up did you originally conceive?

 

2. How did you envisage Sanguinius and his sons as a foil (or reflection) to Angron and his? What themes did you want to explore? How much of Amit's savagery originated fron his primarch?

 

3. What traits or characteristics did you find most fascinating about the BA, as a BL writer or just as a fan?

 

4. Why was this WE/BA idea ultimately shot down?

 

5. After all had been said and done, did you feel that the Shadow Crusade against Ultramar was a better way to approach the WE (i.e. better than your original intention of having the BA involved?)

 

I'm quite glad it didn't turn into WE v BA, I think it would take away from the WE v BA at the gates of the Imperial palace. I'm already annoyed that Sanguinius' victory against the Bloodthirster at the gate has been cheapened by events in Fear to Tread

[bluntblade]

I'd add WS as well. You see it most with how resistant many people are to the idea that anything the V and VI did actually impacted the course of the war between Prospero and Terra.

[b1soul]

Now that we know the Shattered Legions, Black Shields, Malcadors' agents all had meaningful effect upon the Warmaster's advance . . . I think it would be strange to discount the actions of the Scars or the Wolves.

 

Regarding the latter, it's hard to imagine that the Wolves fail to do any significant damage before being (excuse the pun) dog-piled at Yarant

[WarriorFish]

Please stick to the topic, people will be visiting this to read and discuss Lorgar's role in the heresy - discussion on other BL things should be taken to another topic. Thanks.

[b1soul]

EDIT: Sorry...off-topic

[Mirbeau]

This is a problem with the BA and also the SW, DA and TS. In the original HH lore they didn't play much of a role until the end.

 

The HH authors are fleshing out as best they can, the BA's role in Imperium Secundus for example and the ongoing tragedy of the SW.

 

However they are tied to the original story, which is basicly Horus isolating/destroying most of the loyalists so he can hit Terra with overwhelming force. To shoe-horn the other legions into the tale would take away from the basic idea that Horus was a strategic genius that gave himself the best shot he could at Terra, hitting the homeworld with all the traitor legions while only 3 loyalist legions could muster for it's defence.

 

Perhaps there is scope, after the HH series, for a great crusade series of books to give all the legions more limelight on an equal footing?

 

 You put that across well. However, you could say that about practically every legion, bar the traitors. A few have been favoured with more attention than others within the series- often with new roles (Secundus, the wolves' actions or dispersal amongst the fleets as watchdogs/executioners/jocks/whatever, night lords reaving, all the shattered legions business, dark angels scheming convolutedly, whatever the alphas are) - even the Scars (chapter that previously had no HH background before Terra) have had two (very enjoyable imo) novels, the DA have had... three already? (I don't follow their fiction)

 

I'm very biased but it seems like a missed fiscal opportunity from the BL and perhaps a chance for an author to have THE say on the Blood Angels - similar what Guy Haley said about Dante (his new novel) - for a legion/chapter that's been there since the beginning of 40k, one of the traditional top four, so little has been written on them that we don't even know the name of their fortress monastery on Baal -  there is still so much room in their background for someone to run with.

[mc warhammer]

looks like lorgar wasn't born a fanatic after all. from the upcoming primarch novel

 

"

The fifth title in The Horus Heresy: Primarchs series, delving into the story of Lorgar, primarch of the Word Bearers Legion and the first of the Emperor's sons to fall to Chaos.

 

Most devoted of all the primarchs, it was Lorgar who first fell to the lure of Chaos. Once known as Aurelian, this golden son of the Emperor of Mankind found himself an outcast because he worshipped his father as a god. Humbled before the ruins of Monarchia, chastened and brought low, Lorgar yearned for deeper meaning. He found it in the power of Ruin and thus began the descent into heresy. His fate had not always been so. On Colchis, his adopted birth world, Lorgar was not always the zealot, though his path would be nurtured by one: the priest Kor Phaeron."

 

that doesn't mean that the idea of a genetic predisposition is totally ruled out, but it seems daddy number 2 had a lot to do with shaping lorgar's frothing at the mouth

[b1soul]

FW indicates the Imperial Heralds/Iconoclasts were highly zealous in prosecuting idolatry

 

I think a "predisposition" is the right word

[A D-B]

that doesn't mean that the idea of a genetic predisposition is totally ruled out, but it seems daddy number 2 had a lot to do with shaping lorgar's frothing at the mouth

 

The First Heretic screams the very same thing. The importance Lorgar places on Kor Phaeron and Erebus. The ranks they hold in the Legion, from their humble beginnings, carried to the top by Lorgar. The way he speaks with them - Kor Phaeron especially - and the way they speak to him. The climactic moment he finally goes against their will. And so on. 

 

There's no genetic mandate for the Legion to worship anything (that's an overly simplistic and inaccurate reading of it, but you see it passed around sometimes) and I'm not sure there's any real evidence for a predisposition for zealotry in the terms some folks say, but there is a brief mention made of the chemicals in their brains reacting a certain way to Lorgar. And even then, it's not made a big deal out of, or some breathtakingly huge change in their genetic make-up. Argel Tal even asks "Is our loyalty bred into our bones?" and the answer is a direct "No."

[b1soul]

Good ol' nature vs. nurture

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I have to argue against Lorgar being a "frothing at the mouth zealot". He has not come across this way in any of the HH books, he's far more dangerous than that.

 

Sure the WB's have their share of rabid nutters but Lorgar is a man of pure faith, a man who has had his worldview challenged and destroyed once and is capable of questioning his beliefs and they are stronger for it.

 

He understands the nature of chaos, the good and the bad, the inherent fickleness and chaotic nature. Lorgar understands that what the gods giveth, they taketh away. You get this in the books as he deals with setbacks and failures.

 

Lorgar has paid the price for blind faith and has adopted his second religion with wide open eyes. This is what led him to question and break from Kor Phaeron and Erebus and is why he is their master now, not the other way around. He understands chaos in a way their blind and unquestioned faith can not.

[mc warhammer]

 

that doesn't mean that the idea of a genetic predisposition is totally ruled out, but it seems daddy number 2 had a lot to do with shaping lorgar's frothing at the mouth

 

The First Heretic screams the very same thing. The importance Lorgar places on Kor Phaeron and Erebus. The ranks they hold in the Legion, from their humble beginnings, carried to the top by Lorgar. The way he speaks with them - Kor Phaeron especially - and the way they speak to him. The climactic moment he finally goes against their will. And so on. 

 

There's no genetic mandate for the Legion to worship anything (that's an overly simplistic and inaccurate reading of it, but you see it passed around sometimes) and I'm not sure there's any real evidence for a predisposition for zealotry in the terms some folks say, but there is a brief mention made of the chemicals in their brains reacting a certain way to Lorgar. And even then, it's not made a big deal out of, or some breathtakingly huge change in their genetic make-up. Argel Tal even asks "Is our loyalty bred into our bones?" and the answer is a direct "No."

 

 

 

yeeerp, which is how i've always felt on the topic. i want to be clear that by quoting from the description of gav's upcoming novel i didn't mean to imply that this is entirely new viewpoint or revelation.

 

on my fairer days i like to use words like "seems" to suggest rather than hammer home a point. and i was trying to be fair to those who prefer the genetic disposition take: there are plenty of lore bits to suggest that possibility and to make a case (the emperor and the zodiac, the stolen genetic material, the words of some primarchs themselves, the fw books). if it's enough for characters to believe in universe, there's probably no harm in readers entertaining it irl too.

 

unless it gets to the point where they can't imagine another angle...

[mc warhammer]

I have to argue against Lorgar being a "frothing at the mouth zealot". He has not come across this way in any of the HH books, he's far more dangerous than that.

 

 

disclaimer:  "frothing" and "daddy" were bits of hyperbolic slang for the spice of it. no, i don't accuse lorgs of actual daddy issues or being the primarch david koresh.

 

maybe "frothing" is a uniquely aussie slang term?

 

i'm down with the rest of your post. i froth over it, even.

[HeritorA]

 

that doesn't mean that the idea of a genetic predisposition is totally ruled out, but it seems daddy number 2 had a lot to do with shaping lorgar's frothing at the mouth

 

The First Heretic screams the very same thing. The importance Lorgar places on Kor Phaeron and Erebus. The ranks they hold in the Legion, from their humble beginnings, carried to the top by Lorgar. The way he speaks with them - Kor Phaeron especially - and the way they speak to him. The climactic moment he finally goes against their will. And so on. 

 

There's no genetic mandate for the Legion to worship anything (that's an overly simplistic and inaccurate reading of it, but you see it passed around sometimes) and I'm not sure there's any real evidence for a predisposition for zealotry in the terms some folks say, but there is a brief mention made of the chemicals in their brains reacting a certain way to Lorgar. And even then, it's not made a big deal out of, or some breathtakingly huge change in their genetic make-up. Argel Tal even asks "Is our loyalty bred into our bones?" and the answer is a direct "No."

 

And at the same time in Betrayer he does not take them seriously at all. He is joking on their expanse. He doesn't listen to them. And call them naive fools - through he has been one himself in the 'First Heretic'