Helias_Tancred Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 Hail Brothers. I'm sharing this post here simply because this forum is my home on B&C, you are all my brothers of Baal. I just finished the Horus Heresy novel Master of Mankind by Aaron Dembski-Bowden. Technically speaking it was very good, he created strong imagery, and while Black Library novels are no Gone With the Wind, I thought he did well with the characters, especially Zephon the Blood Angel. Finally we see a Blood Angel done right! However I truly regret reading this novel. Why? Let me apologize if this comes off as too dramatic or whiny, however I have never read anything from the Black Library that had the effect of making the whole franchise sorta .... stupid and pointless. A waste of time going forward.. It definitely lowered it a peg in my eyes at the least. After reading it I certainly felt like all the various components of the genre that I've enjoyed, the space marines, the primarchs, the Imperium as a whole, the history, battles entire great struggle at the core of the setting and events going forward, were undermined by this novel. It's like in the Wizard of Oz when they finally reveal what is behind the curtain. I have read most of the Horus Heresy, countless titles set in 40k, novellas, short stories, I own upwards of 50 audio dramas, etc. Never have I finished a novel or story and felt this way. There were several bright spots, Zephon the Blood Angel, Arkhan Land, and that is about it from my perspective. I would not recommend the novel. Ignorance is bliss in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 I don't get it, what in particular made you dislike the novel, or changed how you viewed the setting? Was it the war in the web? The hopelessness of it? Or actually seeing the Emperor in action, or on the throne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helias_Tancred Posted February 26, 2017 Author Share Posted February 26, 2017 I don't want to give away any spoilers so I will keep it vague and general. It had to do with how ADB handled the Emperor, his goals, his true thoughts regarding the astartes, primarchs, etc. The ending and the statement it made. It just sorta makes everything else pointless and a waste of time. After reading it and thinking back to the rest of ADB's works that I've read, I do realize now he's a bit biased in view of the conflict between the Imperium and Chaos. That bias came through in this novel and has the effect of cheapening everything else, making it sorta like "who cares?" .... It did knock the setting & franchise down a peg in my eyes. Again I apologize if this sounds like whining, overly dramatic, but I can't deny how I felt after reading it. I liken it to trying to run a fantasy RPG set in Tolkien's Middle Earth. There is only so much your PCs and your adventures can do and accomplish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helias_Tancred Posted February 26, 2017 Author Share Posted February 26, 2017 But as they say, it is the grimdark, so it is what it is. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 The thing he said at the end is hardly anything new tho. That's always been the case for the warhammer 40k setting. It IS a hopeless fight humanity fights but that doesn't mean they can just give up. Welcome to the grimdark 40k universe we all love and hate. It's funny because i look at Master of Mankind pretty much the exact opposite way. Loved everything about it and ESPECIALLY the look behind the szenes of how the Emperor thinks and views things and the interaction between Custodes, big E, Primarchs and the AdMech. The snippet about the Titan pilot was just icing on the cake. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LutherMax Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 I think you might have to be a bit more specific. It might be more obvious to those that have read the book what your concern is - I have not but I am interested. Why not just use the [ spoiler ] [ / spoiler ] tags and those that don't want to read don't have to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemisor Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 i think part of the problem might be that you are seeing the big E through other peoples eyes. the custodes think of him as their king/battle lord. the mechanicus see him as cold calculating ( hence the scene with number 12) etc. the primarch see him as a father. What i took from the book was that many people see many different things when they look at him because he is all of those things to all those people. as for the hopelessness of it? im not sure sure it is. if you think about what big E said about seeing the future being like looking across a sea/lake, you can see the other side, you know what the goal is but you cant be certain of what will happen along the way. you dont have to apologize for your opinion man, everyone's entitled to have one. i rather enjoyed the book myself but that doesn't mean you have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 Did you read ADB's afterword? "The raging against the dying of the light" None of the general things that happen in the book are new, the specifics, however are. The crusade is over. The emperor's vision lies in ruins. It says so at the start of every book. It's haunting and horrible, but that's the universe of 40k. To be honest, that the book caused such strong emotions is maybe a sign of good writing? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemisor Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 i'd be quite interested to hear what Zephon was originally going to be like. he did mention he changed the character quite a bit from what he had planned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 Yeah I don't know. Most people have said great things about it, and I spent some time in the BL subforum reading about it and watching the dialogue between ADB and other members, and it's pretty much what I would have hoped for. If I wasn't so busy with full time work and full time school, I would move it to the top three books to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 Absolutely loved the book personally. The Emperor was very intriguing and they really paint him as knowing exactly what needs to be done to further humanity, but to do so he gets so detached that he must question himself. The ending too, was haunting and powerful. It is the moment the Heresy is in full swing and the war has done too much damage to recover from. Star systems an be relibrated but the great work is dead, humanity doomed to a slow decline against chaos. Also by your logic surely the whole heresy is just "who cares?" we know the ending and such, it's all the juicy details and characters that make it imo. Interested to see what else you have to say on it though brother :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helias_Tancred Posted February 27, 2017 Author Share Posted February 27, 2017 Well, for starters I'm beginning to get over my initial depression and angst from it. I will say this makes the current situation regarding the return of Guilliman and exactly what Cypher (F.R.) plans to do, a very interesting one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 All I can say is the greater the emotional drop the higher the rise. Give it time. This struggle is eternal otherwise 40k and HH would be in the shredder by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafen IX Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 And the best bit? The Emperor cannot see every future, so even though most people quite rightly accept that this is us 'black' raging against the dying of the light, there is still hope. Isn't that what it means to be a Blood Angel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helias_Tancred Posted February 28, 2017 Author Share Posted February 28, 2017 And the best bit? The Emperor cannot see every future, so even though most people quite rightly accept that this is us 'black' raging against the dying of the light, there is still hope. Isn't that what it means to be a Blood Angel? Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 How did I miss this thread? ...yeah I really like ADB but I did expect perhaps, too much from this book and I was also a little deflated by the end. Not so much because of the bleak look at the future of humanity, I mean heck even now in 2017 we could find ways to end human civilization that aren't totally impossible to imagine; and we already know (because 40K exists) that mankind persists despite losing the webway . I guess it was the Emperor's relationship to the Astartes and the Primarchs, as well as the jumping around not just in time and setting but also in character perspective, that made me feel a certain way. I understand that it has been written about before and it is part of the canon, but the story that hooked me on 40K as a teen was the Realm Of Chaos story of the Emperor versus Horus, where he was so unwilling to kill his 'favorite son', until he saw another of his beloved sons (Sanguinius) killed. In this book they are all viewed simply as tools, whereas the Custodes (we are now selling these models!!) are in fact the truerer "sons" of the Emperor, rather than just an elite bodyguard. I know this is a theme that has already been covered elsewhere in the fluff, but still it took something away from me. All that said though, I did generally enjoy the book and I loved Zephon and Jayda(??) - the Imperial Knight Baroness. Zephon alone - had more depth than any Blood Angels character in the entirety of the Fear to Thread book and that certainly pushed the book into a positive light for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 In this book they are all viewed simply as tools, whereas the Custodes (we are now selling these models!!) are in fact the truerer "sons" of the Emperor, rather than just an elite bodyguard. I know this is a theme that has already been covered elsewhere in the fluff, but still it took something away from me. This was actually discussed at length, with even ADB in the conversation. Basically, it's just the perception that a few of them got, but not necessarily the full truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Yep, the implication is supposed to be that the only person the Emperor described the Primarchs as 'tools' to was Arkhan Land, a member of the Mechanicus. One of the recurring themes is how the Emperor is such a different thing to different people, with the truth being kinda unknowable. To the Mechanicus, he's the Omnissiah, the arch-scientist, a scholar and inventor without peer, without emotion to cloud his judgement. To the Primarch's, though, he's Father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helias_Tancred Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 I guess it was the Emperor's relationship to the Astartes and the Primarchs, as well as the jumping around not just in time and setting but also in character perspective, that made me feel a certain way. I understand that it has been written about before and it is part of the canon, but the story that hooked me on 40K as a teen was the Realm Of Chaos story of the Emperor versus Horus, where he was so unwilling to kill his 'favorite son', until he saw another of his beloved sons (Sanguinius) killed. In this book they are all viewed simply as tools, whereas the Custodes (we are now selling these models!!) are in fact the truerer "sons" of the Emperor, rather than just an elite bodyguard. I know this is a theme that has already been covered elsewhere in the fluff, but still it took something away from me. Bingo! I reacted pretty hard to that theme. I felt very letdown by it. Very. Looking back on it more objectively, the highlights were Zephon who was an excellent character and a well represented member of our chapter, the baroness and her resolve, I also really liked Arkham Land. I would recommend reading it, but be prepared for some letdown, or just plain sadness lol. I attribute that to ADB's biases. He is one of their best authors hands down, but he does have some prejudices in my opinion that you can see now and then in his writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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