newdigitalGK Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 T3 is a big deal when Drop pods land and you get smoked with 21+ flammer hits and then a dedicated assault group wrecking into him or variations of such. Another issue with 10 Vanguard is getting assulted losing by X and then Carl running away and getting overrun. I foresee that being the most likely scenario happening. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4667985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 T3 is a big deal when Drop pods land and you get smoked with 21+ flammer hits and then a dedicated assault group wrecking into him or variations of such. Another issue with 10 Vanguard is getting assulted losing by X and then Carl running away and getting overrun. I foresee that being the most likely scenario happening. Only viable way I see is with either an added Dominus, tanking wounds instead of Carl when Carl runs low (but losing the dominus to a single ID wound), or using Secutarii instead of vanguard. Hoplites provide tons of short-ranged haywire, 5++ and defensive grenades, while Peltasts have impressive firepower (which profits a lot from the Mortispex, which their Alpha can carry, which improves Carl too). The one reason majority toughness 3 shouldn't be a problem is that 5 secutarii in the unit grant a reroll on armour saves of 1. Which is the only one that fails Carl or a Dominus. So you may be easier to wound, but rerollable 2+ armour and FnP is essentially a Lucky Sticks Warboss on steroids. In that case, Carl needs 64 incoming wounds to lose a single one. Heck, even a dominus should be enough... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4668018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 In response to the original post, I have one thing to say... Maybe? kinda? don't get me wrong I only played the list once outside of an 1,500pt apoc game and I had incredibly bad dice rolling (never before have I failed with str 10 since I stopped playing vindicator spam). I fought against the other fall of cadia list with a badass celestine killing everything nearby so I cannot say if it does or not. the lists shown has given me more insight however, so thank you! Would you guys say this list deserves to be run with a skitarii maniple as the core of it's troops? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4668051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 You can't add Carl AND a Dominus to the Cohort, it is either the one or the other. I myself think the Dominus is better than Carl. Repairing one wound / turn seems better to me than just the IWND Canticle once per game. And, if you have Carl in another unit, they still can use the Canticle if badly damaged. I didn't say that you take him IN the Cohort Cybernetica, just attached to it. You'd need to take Cawl as part of another detachment, CAD or something and then have him, as an independent character, join the unit. I'm not necessarily saying Cawl gives significant buffs to the Cohort Cybernetica just that as a tough and tanky unit it might be a better escort than T3 Electro Priests. I like the idea of running Cawl alongside Hoplites, though T3 they are still a pretty durable escort and seem like a viable alternative escort. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4668203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnstrider Posted February 28, 2017 Author Share Posted February 28, 2017 Unfortunately you can not attach Carl to a cohort if he is not replacing the the dominus. The dominus in the cohort is specifically given permission to join the unit of MC's. Carl would have no such permission unless he was part of the formation. I do like the idea of Carl or a dominus with peltasts. I will probably change your original list around to trade out the 10 man vanguard units with priests to peltasts. Will just need to use two of the small units of vanguard for a skitarii maniple to get them in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4668273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Unfortunately you can not attach Carl to a cohort if he is not replacing the the dominus. The dominus in the cohort is specifically given permission to join the unit of MC's. Carl would have no such permission unless he was part of the formation. I do like the idea of Carl or a dominus with peltasts. I will probably change your original list around to trade out the 10 man vanguard units with priests to peltasts. Will just need to use two of the small units of vanguard for a skitarii maniple to get them in. Ah I didn't realize Kastelans were Monstrous Creatures, ok well then Cawl would have to replace the Dominus, still possible but not as viable as a standard Dominus in the formation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4668286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeStinyFiSh Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 T3 is a big deal when Drop pods land and you get smoked with 21+ flammer hits and then a dedicated assault group wrecking into him or variations of such. Another issue with 10 Vanguard is getting assulted losing by X and then Carl running away and getting overrun. I foresee that being the most likely scenario happening. Ok, lets say there is a Salamanders Detachment that gets 24 S5 (!) hits on your Vanguard with Carl outfront. That is 20 wounds. That is 3,33 failed armour saves That is 2,22 wounds not saved by first FnP That is 1,48 wounds not saved by second FnP This means you need about 81 S5 hits to bring Carl down in a majority T3 unit (if proper possitioned of course, bad if the templates get behind the unit). Being able to eat more than 80 hits that would otherwise have anhilated a unit of 10 Vanguard or even 20 Secutarii is worth way more in my oppinion than making a tough unit like Kastellans (that can shrug of these 24 flamer hits themself) a little tougher... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4668312 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Ok, lets say there is a Salamanders Detachment that gets 24 S5 (!) hits on your Vanguard with Carl outfront. That is 20 wounds. That is 3,33 failed armour saves That is 2,22 wounds not saved by first FnP That is 1,48 wounds not saved by second FnP And now let's say Carl is leading a unit of 10+ secutarii: 24 hits 16 wounds (S-1 on shooting if more than 10 secutarii models) 2,66 failed armour saves 0,44 failed armour save rerolls (more than 5 secutarii) 0,29 failed FnP 0,19 failed FnP rerolls So it would take 607 S5 flamer hits to kill Carl. Congratulations, he just tanked a skitarii army's worth of hits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4668331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 I love Cawl, will hopefully be bringing him to an Apoc game. I imagine he'll be D-blasted rather quickly........ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4668423 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magos Takatus Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Wow... I wasn't aware Cawl was that resilient. I'd best paint my stuff quicker so that I can put Cawl and some Peltasts on my shopping list (Upgraded from my wishlist :p ). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4668460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Be careful with the Peltasts, FW nerfed their guns significantly after the initial (frankly OP) experimental rules. May want to check up to see if they still fit your plans! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4668501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Be careful with the Peltasts, FW nerfed their guns significantly after the initial (frankly OP) experimental rules. May want to check up to see if they still fit your plans! Guess they will carry that over to 40k, as the current rules are still considered experimental, and the IA will hit in a few months anyway. The kinetic hammershot will require spending a few points, but considering their use (and Carls usual retinue cost), that shouldn't be an issue. Upside, FW slightly increased the hoplites, making them a more viable bodyguard than before, though still being stuck at low range. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4668509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnstrider Posted February 28, 2017 Author Share Posted February 28, 2017 How did the secutarii change? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4668613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Secutarii in 30k: Hoplites shoot with S5, not 4. Peltast ammo was downgraded: Ignis doesn't ignore cover, flechette is S2 instead of S3, kinetic hammershot is a 3ppm upgrade but otherwise unchanged. Also, brought the alpha's statline up to regular skitarii statline (+1W). Kinda was necessary, as flechette was single-handedly better than radium and hammershot, while hammershot was better in every aspect than galvanic rifles. Add in the bonus of the kyropatris, and peltasts invalidated any other skitarii troops choice at the same time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4668686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Secutarii in 30k: Hoplites shoot with S5, not 4. Peltast ammo was downgraded: Ignis doesn't ignore cover, flechette is S2 instead of S3, kinetic hammershot is a 3ppm upgrade but otherwise unchanged. Also, brought the alpha's statline up to regular skitarii statline (+1W). Kinda was necessary, as flechette was single-handedly better than radium and hammershot, while hammershot was better in every aspect than galvanic rifles. Add in the bonus of the kyropatris, and peltasts invalidated any other skitarii troops choice at the same time. it was a necessary change really. my question is though is who thought it would be a good idea to have the alpha carry the omni-spex. seriously I already modeled one up in the squad seperate from the alpha >.< Anyways, back to the topic on hand. how else have people found this formation useful? Do they min-max with skitarii or do they take a skitarii maniple along side it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4669648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 I haven't tried this one yet but I definitely will. For the most part I avoid the Convocation, so for me it's generally been some combination of a Skitarii Maniple/Cult Mech Formations. This Formation sort of cuts the middleman and makes it easy to avoid "dead weight" units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4669804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 The minimum 4 troops choices are hard to fill - but if you were planning on some rangers and Kataphrons anyway... There are worse ways to go about it - giving you a whole lot more slots for Cawl, Dominus, Enginseers (and relics!) plus really benefitting Onagers if you are bringing them. Then you only need some vanguard for a maniple on the side to get scout on those, or on dragoons and the Sicarans. I suppose we're kind of really in a super position with all of our formations and detachments - you can bring pretty much anything in any combo and get just the right mix of special rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4670536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magos Takatus Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 I suppose we're kind of really in a super position with all of our formations and detachments - you can bring pretty much anything in any combo and get just the right mix of special rules. For a lot of people we must be in an odd situation where people are looking forward to new options from a new codex but also hoping the formations we currently have don't get invalidated. I haven't rolled dice for a long time since I've been painting mostly but I do find myself wondering if I'm picking the models that won't nealy fit into future formations we get. I've got a squad of Rangers with 3 Transuranic Arquebus since I liked the models so to see them become more useful is a relief. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4670592 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 I suppose we're kind of really in a super position with all of our formations and detachments - you can bring pretty much anything in any combo and get just the right mix of special rules. For a lot of people we must be in an odd situation where people are looking forward to new options from a new codex but also hoping the formations we currently have don't get invalidated. I haven't rolled dice for a long time since I've been painting mostly but I do find myself wondering if I'm picking the models that won't nealy fit into future formations we get. I've got a squad of Rangers with 3 Transuranic Arquebus since I liked the models so to see them become more useful is a relief. Yeah exactly that - I really like the idea of tank-hunting aquebus from the relic, will probably run that for a really fun sniper unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4670627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeStinyFiSh Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Well, what do you think about the GC to boost some Knights with IWND? Is it worth it? 4 Troops and 2 HQ are cheap-ish to get, so there is no problem to add 3 Knights and an Onager for anti air. HQs can be used to heal Knights as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4670696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Well, we're in a good position concerning slots and detachments. The skitarii maniple is singularly cheap and easy to fill (in terms of compulsory troops), we have specialist formations (killclade and such) and several big formations/detachments that we can fill with pretty much any combination of units we can think of. My other 40k projects, Deathwatch and Raptors aren't that fortunate. Deathwatch is extremely limited in choices, and there is only one formation to make the entire army work. And by work I don't mean War Convocation levels, but barely able to hold its ground in a regular game. Regular marines have more options for viable lists, but most formations dictate which units to take. With my rather unusual army composition, nothing really fits. 4 Troops and 2 HQ are cheap-ish to get, so there is no problem to add 3 Knights and an Onager for anti air. HQs can be used to heal Knights as well. Can't say much on knights, as I don't play them. But from what I hear, they are quite fond of some cheap objective campers. IWND on a knight army is hard, a Carlticle to instantly repair them across the field should be useful too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4670699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 In terms of supporting a Knight army you cant really get much better than repairs and IWND on all of them. I'd be more focused on shooty knights for sure though methinks... Maybe one or two combat arms as well... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4670700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 In terms of supporting a Knight army you cant really get much better than repairs and IWND on all of them. You forgot the cheap, min-sized objective campers. With the optional 2++ relic (stasis field) to become nearly invincible while camping an objective. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4670741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 True, but they aren't obj sec - which you'll want when a battle company pod lands near you... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4670791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 True, but they aren't obj sec - which you'll want when a battle company pod lands near you...Rate of fire works wonders for removing ObSec units. Been playing without ObSec for years, never been an issue. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331406-did-fall-of-cadia-disarm-some-of-our-codex-traps/page/2/#findComment-4672739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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