2.5k Orbital Assault BA, Is it a Jerk List or is it fair?

[K3nn3rs]

There are debates between RAI and RAW and then there's this...

 

If you're telling me that you'd allow your opponent, whether it was a pick up game or at an event, to get his army out, talk you through his list, allow you deploy, etc, etc, etc, and then declare that you'd 'auto won' because they had taken an OA list with all pods, then you're in the wrong hobby.

 

It's one thing repeating it over and over again on the net-but i bet you've never done it in the 'real world'.

 

Back to the OP - if you're asking that question, then deep down you know the answer. IMO it's too min-max.

I'd drop a leviathan and use the points to change some of the troops around to give you different options.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I like the new list but basically every term should have a power fist or chain fist.

[em_en_oh_pee]

Shouldn't have to sweat it if people follow the rules. If I saw they had an autolose list, I would ask them well before the game started if they wanted to alter it or just play it as is ignoring the rule. But it IS a rule and it's clear as crystal.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It's just for some of the scenarios though. I'd be like let's play one that's good for you.

[Mirbeau]

Without being rude, both sides of the debate here seem to have a rather too much of a 40k attitude to this. In a non-tournament game, the auto-lose position would be a ridiculous one to take in 30k, RAW or otherwise. The spirit of the game should prevail.

 

That said, while thematically and aesthetically cool, the list is a little 40kish and cookie-cutter as it stands - you may stop enjoying it after some time and most 30k lists I've played against  here in the UK hark back to a time where people took a little of everything for flavour (unless the list was specifically themed, as yours is). It might be worth considering making future additions to it in keeping with the sort of theme you have - say scimitar jetbikes or javelin speeders (both very effective units for light to heavy tankbusting)  to add a little more variation in.

[Bat33.1]

The issue playing against null deployment as an opponent when going first is you have a full turn of shooting that can do nothing. You can shuffle your models around but basically waste your first player turn doing very little. Example, if the opponent had deployed a couple of models while waiting for the pods to arrive later and you shoot them off the table turn 1 does that fulfill the rules for tabling an opponent? If so how is that different to deploying zero models in the first instance and going 2nd? Nothing on the table = loose in most tournament settings but obviously it's meta dependant. Friendly games do what you are both happy to agree as rules :)

[m0nolith]

Back to the OP - if you're asking that question, then deep down you know the answer. IMO it's too min-max.

I'd drop a leviathan and use the points to change some of the troops around to give you different options.

Thats a good point.

If I was to say drop a Levi, what would a replace it with?

Maybe instead a Kharibdis? I could also add a Cataphractii Primus Medicae to really give that 10 man termie squad staying power. It would also have the Terminators on the board and ready to assault on turn 2. It would still give me 40 points to spare.

 

The list would be:

 

HQ

-Cataphractii Praetor w/ Blade of Perdition, Digital Lasers

-Cataphractii Primus Medicae w/ Blade of Perdition

 

ELITES

8 Cataphractii Terminator Squad w/ 5 chainfists

 

TROOPS

-Tactical Squad w/ AA, Melta Bomb, Drop Pod

 

-Tactical Squad w/ AA, Melta Bomb, Drop Pod

 

-Tactical Squad w/ AA, Melta Bomb, Drop Pod

 

-Support Squad w/ Flamers (or volkite chargers), AA, Melta Bomb, Drop Pod

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

-Leviathan Dreadnought w/ Claw, Drill, Armored Ceramite, Phospex, 2x Iliastus Assault Cannon, Dreadnought Drop Pod

 

-Leviathan Dreadnought w/ Claw, Drill, Armored Ceramite, Phospex, 2x Iliastus Assault Cannon, Dreadnought Drop Pod

 

-Kharibdis Assault Claw

[K3nn3rs]

I'd suggest a chaplain over a Primus medicae.

 

The type of units that you'll generally be going against with a 10 man termie unit with be typically armed with S8-10 weapons (other termies, dreads, knights, etc) silk they'all bypass your FnP.

 

However, a Chaplain will not only boost combat punch during the first round of each combat but makes them fearless. With 9 terminators and a Chaplain you should be confident of the squad doing the job intended!

[m0nolith]

I'd suggest a chaplain over a Primus medicae.

The type of units that you'll generally be going against with a 10 man termie unit with be typically armed with S8-10 weapons (other termies, dreads, knights, etc) silk they'all bypass your FnP.

However, a Chaplain will not only boost combat punch during the first round of each combat but makes them fearless. With 9 terminators and a Chaplain you should be confident of the squad doing the job intended!

Good idea.

Points wise it ends up being about the same anyways.

Still, my main concern is fairness.

Would adding a Khyribdis instead of a Pod Leviathan help alleviate that or would it be about the same?

[K3nn3rs]

It's not the Khyribdis that's the real

Threat - it's what it delivers turn 1!

 

I think it's fine - it's a tough list without being quite so '40K cookie - cutter-ish '

[Fangbanger]

I don't think it's a super strong drop list at all.

 

You only have 7 pods meaning just 4 will drop in turn 1 I'm guessing levis, special k and support squad/tac squad.

 

the tac/sup squad won't be much of a threat and have to disembark and although you can jink, the k will most likely be destroyed and depending on the army you are up against won't be much if the squad left.

 

Yes 2 levis is strong (and I feel essential in orbital Strike due to lack of tanks), but your oponent will have more units than you and can focus fire quite easily.

 

Also if they are bunkered up in Spartans, you gotta crack them first too.

 

if you are up against Medusa etc... they will most likely ruin your day

 

Also at this level there will be primarchs and low so I don't think it's cheesy at all

[K3nn3rs]

Yes but most of those are generic issues faced with any OA list.

 

I'd be interested at seeing any list at 2.5K that can focus fire on 2 x Levi's in DDP and a jinking special-K.

 

You've also neglected to cover the key advantage of an OA - getting to pick where your units drop (there's always a risk of scatter) but you can make a large part of the enemy force redundant for 1-2 turns as they wheel round and face the area you have landed in.

[Fangbanger]

That's a double edged sword though spreading your pods out either once what you went after is destroyed, you gotta treck that unit back to the action or you are spread too thin and can't hold that area.

 

I will admit I thought this was a 3k list but yes, even at 2.5k alot of lists can handle levis

 

not saying the list is :cuss, just that OA is hard in general to make work and I think 3k with 9 pods is where it starts to do well

[K3nn3rs]

I agree that OA is hard to make work, especially if the mission is objective based and forces you to spread your units around the table!

[SockMonkey]

I would lean toward jerk list. Starting with 3 cookie cutter DP Leviathans. But hey what do I know?

[Fangbanger]

well it's actually 2...

[Varyn]

My biggest concern, if this was my list, would be whether the list is fun to play. There aren't a lot of units in the list; a unit of terminators, 2 leviathans and a 3(4) tactical squads.

 

I'd perhaps be concerned because the leviathans are such a big points sink, 1/3 of your list is taken up by 2 models, if they die without contributing much, you'll find it hard to have a decent/fun game.

 

I'd be tempted to just run 1 leviathan and bump it up to two at 3k.

 

Just 2 cents :)

[Fangbanger]

I think another thing is, do you really need OA? you can get dread pods and kharybdis in any right if war and still then have stuff in the ground.

 

I have good success/fun running gear my world eaters with a K, dread pod and anvilus with then Spartans on the ground.

 

your tac squads can easily be put in rhinos and you have the option to use other heavy other than the 2nd levi

 

just a thought

[m0nolith]

I think another thing is, do you really need OA? you can get dread pods and kharybdis in any right if war and still then have stuff in the ground.

I have good success/fun running gear my world eaters with a K, dread pod and anvilus with then Spartans on the ground.

your tac squads can easily be put in rhinos and you have the option to use other heavy other than the 2nd levi

just a thought

Yeah, I really want to do OA.

Iv always wanted a full drop pod army since it's very thematic and fluffy.

[Fangbanger]

that's fair enough

[Lord Blackwood]

I see no reason for you to tone down from your original list.

 

Punching down is something that should be reserved for after you've proven your meta can't handle your list.

[pompeyladbfp]

depends on the rest of your gaming group, i got into 30k to get away from "those non looking army" lists, i would go for at least one anchor unit to fit into 30k rules so you dont auto lose (basically FW dodnt want you to take reserve based lists. 

 

also dont forget to keep the heavyflamers/volkites for leviathan for when the blood angel list comes out. Alan Bligh has already hinted that the assault cannon will only be allowed to be swapped on certain infantry squads such as terms/vets rather than a 5pt way to make all tanks mega shooty

[m0nolith]

depends on the rest of your gaming group, i got into 30k to get away from "those non looking army" lists, i would go for at least one anchor unit to fit into 30k rules so you dont auto lose (basically FW dodnt want you to take reserve based lists. 

 

also dont forget to keep the heavyflamers/volkites for leviathan for when the blood angel list comes out. Alan Bligh has already hinted that the assault cannon will only be allowed to be swapped on certain infantry squads such as terms/vets rather than a 5pt way to make all tanks mega shooty

I agree with you on the Assault Cannon point, and I do think they will remove the ability for most units to be able to take it based on what AB said.

However also according to AB, Orbital Assaults are exempt to the null deployment rule. 

My guess is they will clarify it in the next FAQ.

 

Edit: Penndraig, a guy that regularly goes to the Open Days and talks to the FW folks on a regular basis said that according to Bligh and Andy Hoare, the auto-lose rule is a misprint in the Red Book. According to them it should say "At the end of the game turn".

Also according to them the correct printing is in Book 6, and surprise surprise, on page 174, middle column, first paragraph, it says exactly that :D

[em_en_oh_pee]

depends on the rest of your gaming group, i got into 30k to get away from "those non looking army" lists, i would go for at least one anchor unit to fit into 30k rules so you dont auto lose (basically FW dodnt want you to take reserve based lists.

also dont forget to keep the heavyflamers/volkites for leviathan for when the blood angel list comes out. Alan Bligh has already hinted that the assault cannon will only be allowed to be swapped on certain infantry squads such as terms/vets rather than a 5pt way to make all tanks mega shooty

I agree with you on the Assault Cannon point, and I do think they will remove the ability for most units to be able to take it based on what AB said.

However also according to AB, Orbital Assaults are exempt to the null deployment rule.

My guess is they will clarify it in the next FAQ.

Edit: Penndraig, a guy that regularly goes to the Open Days and talks to the FW folks on a regular basis said that according to Bligh and Andy Hoare, the auto-lose rule is a misprint in the Red Book. According to them it should say "At the end of the game turn".

Also according to them the correct printing is in Book 6, and surprise surprise, on page 174, middle column, first paragraph, it says exactly that

And I wish they had realized that before Inferno was printed. What a missed chance to fix that stupid rule... but they didn't. Then again, Inferno is just rife with issues.

[Fangbanger]

I really would not get hung up on that rule buddy. Clearly anyone that calls you on it is a dick so I doubt the game would have been any fun anyway