HH Book 44: The Crimson King

[1ncarnadine]

 

I can see your train of thought, although ultimately I agurre it comes to the 'jerks and hypocrites' thing. And I don't think 'modern' Wolves are good evidence for the darker, merciless and murder-make-focused 30K wolves. However, I guess the prologue of Prospero Burns, the murdermake of the village, does help explain Dio's death. But it still feels strange that Bjarni trusts a daemon, and that he doesn't accept Dio's duty just as he himself fulfilled awful duties. Unless he just likes killing, and once his moral system says 'enemy' they are utterly dead. It is also how he uses 'wyrd' as his excuse for whatever he does. It is not a good character trait, in that it becomes 'deus ex wyrd' for all his actions. 

 

Yeah, I can't really defend why a Space Wolf believed a daemon. It is Kairos Fateweaver, though, so I kind of filled the blank in myself that such a superlative being of lies and forbidden knowledge would show Bjarni exactly what he needed to see to manipulate him. I'm also stealing "deus ex wyrd" to describe Bjarni because I love that. He's not a great character, but I do still think killing Dio for knowing what he does is a pretty Space Wolves thing to do, 30k or otherwise. I think that part of their character bridges 30k and 40k, even if their whole culture doesn't.

 

 

 

 

Overall, I think a lot of the characters in The Crimson King were a bit ... James Cameron. They do things because it creates moments of (leaden-heavy) spectacle, fall out because it adds some (unnecessary) tension and make up (if they do) because the plot demands it. It's the dull thudding story telling of a narrative like Avatar. Tolbek's 'there will be consequences' at the end of the novel is one moment - overt rather than subtext.

 

 

More problematic, in Exile we are told Tolbek was one of the first to contribute to the Rubric. Tolbek's anger here seems to skip entirely the betrayal of the Rubric, he sees already Ahriman as someone dangerous. But for the 'plot', Tolbek will make up and be friends with Ahriman to take part in the Rubric (forgetting his worries) before again become embittered after it. 

 

No arguments here. I think that's what we should generally expect from Graham McNeill, unfortunately. He does spectacular fantasy, and shows us incredible settings. Not so much good character writing. Or subtlety. It also helps that I have a "no Graham McNeill while sober" reading policy 

 

I actually completely missed that Tolbek is the same sorcerer that shows up at the start of Exile! That explains a lot. I think I confused him for Gaumata (which made his suspicion towards Ahriman even weirder to me; I was thinking "don't you hang out with this guy all the time thousands of years from now??"). D'oh

[Petitioner's City]

 

 

I can see your train of thought, although ultimately I agurre it comes to the 'jerks and hypocrites' thing. And I don't think 'modern' Wolves are good evidence for the darker, merciless and murder-make-focused 30K wolves. However, I guess the prologue of Prospero Burns, the murdermake of the village, does help explain Dio's death. But it still feels strange that Bjarni trusts a daemon, and that he doesn't accept Dio's duty just as he himself fulfilled awful duties. Unless he just likes killing, and once his moral system says 'enemy' they are utterly dead. It is also how he uses 'wyrd' as his excuse for whatever he does. It is not a good character trait, in that it becomes 'deus ex wyrd' for all his actions. 

 

Yeah, I can't really defend why a Space Wolf believed a daemon. It is Kairos Fateweaver, though, so I kind of filled the blank in myself that such a superlative being of lies and forbidden knowledge would show Bjarni exactly what he needed to see to manipulate him. I'm also stealing "deus ex wyrd" to describe Bjarni because I love that. He's not a great character, but I do still think killing Dio for knowing what he does is a pretty Space Wolves thing to do, 30k or otherwise. I think that part of their character bridges 30k and 40k, even if their whole culture doesn't.

 

 

 

 

 

Do enjoy using it! I didn't realise it was Kairos, although that makes sense (in a small universe way).

 

 

 

 

 

Overall, I think a lot of the characters in The Crimson King were a bit ... James Cameron. They do things because it creates moments of (leaden-heavy) spectacle, fall out because it adds some (unnecessary) tension and make up (if they do) because the plot demands it. It's the dull thudding story telling of a narrative like Avatar. Tolbek's 'there will be consequences' at the end of the novel is one moment - overt rather than subtext.

 

 

More problematic, in Exile we are told Tolbek was one of the first to contribute to the Rubric. Tolbek's anger here seems to skip entirely the betrayal of the Rubric, he sees already Ahriman as someone dangerous. But for the 'plot', Tolbek will make up and be friends with Ahriman to take part in the Rubric (forgetting his worries) before again become embittered after it. 

 

No arguments here. I think that's what we should generally expect from Graham McNeill, unfortunately. He does spectacular fantasy, and shows us incredible settings. Not so much good character writing. Or subtlety. It also helps that I have a "no Graham McNeill while sober" reading policy 

 

I actually completely missed that Tolbek is the same sorcerer that shows up at the start of Exile! That explains a lot. I think I confused him for Gaumata (which made his suspicion towards Ahriman even weirder to me; I was thinking "don't you hang out with this guy all the time thousands of years from now??"). D'oh

 

 

I'll borrow that policy Although what to drink....?

 

As for Tolbek ... that is one of my favourite scenes in Exile (the following quotation for purposes of criticism, is less than 5% or a chapter of the text in accordance with UK copyright laws):

 

 

A figure stepped through the door. He wore robes the white of dried bone, his armour deep red and silver-edged. Green eyes shone from a mask of bronze beneath a striped crest of crimson and white. A sword hung at his waist. Two figures followed the first. Their armour, too, was red and silver. Lapis and ivory spiralled over the casings of the boltguns held across their chests. They moved with machine-like precision, stopping a pace behind the emissary and becoming utterly still. Ahriman heard a low whispering, like words spoken just out of hearing.

 

Ahriman felt ice run across his skin. He knew the armour, the craft that had gone into its making, and the symbolism that had guided the maker’s hand. The emissary was a sorcerer of the Thousand Sons, and his two followers were not living warriors but Rubricae. Not alive, but denied death, they were ghost-driven shells. Seeing the blank stare of their helmet eyes Ahriman felt his world blink to blackness…

 

…The chamber vanished and for a heartbeat he saw again the raven flying in a burning sky. The raven’s cries laughed in his ears. ‘I am fate, Ahriman. I am the turning of stars, and the death of time…’

Ahriman stilled his breath, fighting to keep his mind clear. His gaze locked on the trio. Inside his mind he could feel the presence of the emissary gliding over the chamber, tasting each mind for intent and type. He forced his mind to ascend through levels of control and focus, cooling his surface thoughts to a meaningless static. He felt the emissary’s mind touch his, and almost cried out; it was seeing the face of a friend thought long dead.

 

Tolbek. The name sprang into his mind, and now as he looked again he recognised the subtle details of posture and stance. An adept of the Pyrae in the long-broken traditions of Prospero, Tolbek had been one of the first to join Ahriman’s cabal. Tolbek had played his part in the Rubric that destroyed their Legion and shared in their banishment. Ahriman had not seen him since.

 

He is alive. The thought rose in his mind with a rush of emotion. I am not alone. Inside his helm his mouth opened and words began to form on his tongue.

 

But why is he here? How is he here? The questions were suddenly sharp splinters in his thoughts, and his words died in his throat. He blinked and the image came again…

 

…An unkindness of ravens spiralling around him, their cries rising louder and louder…

Ahriman tried to remain still, as his mind screamed. He was breathing hard. The vision had slipped into his mind like a razor. He had not experienced anything like it since his exile. And it was not over. He could feel pressure building inside his head. He heard snatches of voices, and vague images smudged his sight.

 

‘I come with greetings.’ Tolbek’s voice was deep and resonant, filled with authority, but Ahriman heard the edge of contempt in the tone. Gzrel must have heard it too, or noted the absence of title and obeisance. The lord of the Harrowing stirred, the blades of his claws clicking on the throne’s arms.

 

‘From whom do you come?’ asked Gzrel.

 

‘I speak for the Brotherhood of Dust,’ said Tolbek, and Ahriman glanced up to see Maroth whispering frantically in Gzrel’s ear.

 

‘A name I do not know,’ said Gzrel. Ahriman’s mind was racing, drawing together possibilities, memories and fears. He thought of the glowing eyes of Karoz, of the snatches of vision glimpsed in the taking of the Titan Child. He had spent lifetimes of mortal men hiding from what he had been, not knowing what became of his brothers. Now the past had found him and he could feel its threat as if it were a sword above his head.

 

Why not let it fall? Why not let fate end here? he thought.

Because you do not believe in that fate, Ahriman, said a voice in his mind, and he could not tell if it was his own.

 

‘If you can help us find what we seek then the rewards will be great,’ said Tolbek.

 

‘What could you reward me with?’ Gzrel gestured to his throne and attendants.

 

‘Things you could not grasp in your dreams,’ said Tolbek softly, and Ahriman could see the hunger in Gzrel at the words.

 

‘What is it that you seek?’ said Gzrel, and Ahriman felt the answer appear in his mind with complete certainty. It was not a trick of prophecy or a truth seized from the warp, but he knew, and the truth was a cold hand around his hearts.

 

‘We seek a sorcerer,’ said Tolbek.

 

Without considering why, Ahriman brought his mind to a point of complete focus. He felt calm, the old battle calm that he had not felt for a lifetime of exile. He felt the warp align with his thoughts. Long ago, in a time that seemed so far removed from the present as to seem a dream, he had learned the Spiral of the Corvidae. It was a discipline of future prediction, physical precision and mental control as much as it was of the blade. It was an art of killing.

 

Beside him Gzrel chuckled and gestured again at his attendants.

 

‘Of those I have enough, but they serve me alone.’

 

Ahriman drew the warp to him, subtly aligning thought in patterns he had believed forgotten. He felt doors he had sealed off in his mind open. It felt like the first breath after coming to the surface of a deep sea.

 

No, he thought. No, I will not. But he did not stop. Senses he had kept closed opened, denied powers and possibilities sprang into his mind. He felt the warp overlay his perceptions.

 

Stop now before it is too late. He heard the warning in his own voice.

 

‘We seek the sorcerer called Ahriman,’ said Tolbek. Ahriman felt his mind register his name. His senses were alive, seeing the small movements of Tolbek’s fingers on the pommel of his sword, hearing the dull roar of the warp around him like the pounding of ocean waves.

 

‘For what?’ asked Gzrel, a dangerous smile splitting his face. Ahriman’s eyes settled on Tolbek, seeing his physical form overlaid with his aetheric aura. Power, a lot of power, held back like water behind a dam. Tolbek remained silent for a heartbeat; Ahriman saw his aura flicker.

 

‘For the settling of fates and tallies of betrayal,’ said Tolbek. Gzrel nodded slowly, Maroth whispering in his ear. Ahriman could feel the minds of the others in the room: Gzrel bloated with hunger, Maroth a tangled mess of fear and pride, the other two Harrowing sorcerers murky lumps of exaggerated emotion and vestigial power. He noted each.

 

‘What can you tell us of him?’ It was Maroth that spoke, his rasping voice ringing hollow in the gloom-filled air. Tolbek fixed the soothsayer with an emerald stare.

 

‘I see that you have nothing I seek.’ Tolbek turned and took a step towards the door.

 

‘I have many sorcerers in my service,’ called Gzrel, and Ahriman could hear the desire and the angered pride in the lord’s voice. ‘Perhaps you would hear the rewards that your service would earn from me.’

 

‘Do not be foolish,’ said Tolbek, half turning to look at Gzrel. ‘I have searched across the stars and void. I have spoken with those who would grind you to nothing with a thought. You do not have what I need, and so I go.’

 

A lie, thought Ahriman. He could feel Tolbek’s mind unfolding into the ship, tasting minds, searching. He fought to make his mind a mirror, his thoughts blank.

 

…The flicker of black feathers, and a red sun rolling through a starless sky…

Gzrel was rising from his throne. Chainblades spun to life in the hands of the guards by the door. Ahriman felt a sudden surge in the warp, a ragged wind coiling around Maroth as the soothsayer muttered guttural phrases. A second later Xiatsis and Cottadaron were also the centre of growing spirals of invisible power. Tolbek was still and silent, but to Ahriman’s eyes he was a towering shape of diamond and spreading flame. The floor began to glow around Tolbek. The candles melted to pools of pale liquid. Ahriman could feel his hearts beat inside his chest. The vision pressed against his mind. An impression of a red sun and black wings flicked across his sight. He fought the image down. His head felt like it was about to explode.

 

‘Do not let your pride guide you down a path you could not return from,’ said Tolbek and his voice was the soft roar of an inferno. ‘Have your sorcerers look down those future tracks – if they can. They will tell you that this meeting has ended in your favour.’ Maroth’s enchantment vanished from his lips; he was shaking, and sweat beaded on his face. He was afraid; Ahriman could tell that without looking at him. Gzrel remained standing, his fingers flexing, but he said nothing. The firestorm around Tolbek faded from the warp. The floor cracked as the stone began to cool.

 

Ahriman kept his gaze steady on Tolbek. He held his mind in the poised focus of battle readiness. An image of Tolbek standing on the plains of the red planet flashed in front of his mind. He remembered Tolbek turning to him as the dust settled under the rising sun. In that remembered moment there had been fear in Tolbek’s eyes.

 

Tolbek paused, and then turned to look at Ahriman. The beaked front of Ahriman’s black helm hid his face, but he felt Tolbek’s gaze as if it were the barrel of a gun.

 

‘You,’ said Tolbek.

 

He knows, thought Ahriman, and felt a stab of hatred and suspicion bloom from Tolbek and then vanish as it was suppressed.

 

‘What is your name, crow helm?’ The question hung in the air. Gzrel was turning to look at Ahriman, words forming on his lips. Maroth was watching Tolbek, his hand moving towards his weapons. Above them the chains stirred and clinked. Ahriman could feel the warp become suddenly still and calm.

 

+Brother,+ sent Ahriman.

 

+It is truly you,+ replied Tolbek, and Ahriman felt the surprise in the sending.

 

+Why have you come?+

 

Ahriman felt Tolbek’s mind harden, his thoughts hiding behind walls of protection.

 

+You must come with me.+

 

+To what end?+

 

Tolbek did not reply. Ahriman could see a glimmer of the truth through the fortress of Tolbek’s mind. There was anger, and sorrow, and bitterness. The emotions blazed like multi-coloured lights and tasted like ashes.

 

+I will not go with you,+ he sent. +I am not what I was and I will never allow myself to be again.+

 

+That choice is not yours.+

 

‘I am sorry, brother,’ said Ahriman.

 

The flame leapt from Tolbek’s hand. Ahriman froze as shock washed through him in a cold wave. For a fraction of a heartbeat he could not believe the suddenness of Tolbek’s attack.

 

He is my brother, he thought, and felt the warp coiling around him, held taut, waiting for his will to give it form. It was like regaining feeling in a forgotten limb. There will be no way back after this, he thought, and felt paths of cause and effect skitter at the edge of his awareness: the old divinations of the Corvidae, so long sealed off, returning like insects drawn to light.

 

Ahriman was still as the fire reached for him.

 

He raised a hand.

 

Tolbek was moving, his blade in his hand, its edge blinding bright.

 

The flame hit Ahriman’s palm and exploded outwards.

 

Ahriman’s mind was a still point at the centre of a storm. Beside him Xiatsis raised his hand, energy flowing to the gesture. Ahriman felt the threat and shifted the shape of his thoughts. Xiatsis came off the floor and split apart into armour fragments and tatters of flesh. One of the Harrowing initiates beside Gzrel had taken a step towards Ahriman, the teeth of his chainsword starting to spin. With a thought Ahriman flung the bloody cloud of bone splinters at the champion. A shard found an eyepiece and the champion went down, his chainsword shrieking to life in his dead man’s grip.

 

Tolbek had taken two paces towards Ahriman, fire still spraying from his hand. Ahriman’s mind reached across the warp, grasped the flame and pulled with his will. It felt like sinking his teeth into soft meat. Tolbek cried out in surprise and pain. The fire curled around Ahriman, spinning in a cyclone, turning faster and faster, roaring as it fed on the chamber’s air.

 

Ahriman wanted to laugh. He had refused this power for so long, had feared the doors it opened and the future it would draw him to, but now fate had found him and fear vanished. The sensation of battle and power surged through him in euphoric waves. He felt the aether respond to his mind, forming to his emotions and intellect. He could see the next few moments playing out in exact detail: the gasp of air from Maroth’s lips, Tolbek’s sword rising, the blood of the door guards bright on the floor. And through it all he could see his actions sliding through these moments like a razor slicing flesh. How could he have ever put this aside? The years of fear and doubt shrank in his mind as he soared above them on a god’s wings. The pressure in his head exploded and for a blink the chamber vanished…

 

… and the raven laughed, and the ground spiralled beneath him as he rose into the red sun…

Reality blinked back into place. Tolbek was charging, sword rising in a glowing crescent. At the chamber door the two Harrowing guards had started forwards. Maroth gasped, shaking where he stood, and Ahriman could taste the fear fuming from him in black clouds. Ahriman reshaped his thoughts and the fire storm enveloped Tolbek. Tolbek was burning, his robes charring, his armour glowing with heat. Tolbek spoke a word and the flame sucked into his body like water draining into sand.

 

Gzrel was fast, despite his bulk. His claws reached for Ahriman, lightning coating their tips. Ahriman turned to look at Gzrel and the claws sparked across a wall of invisible force.

 

The Harrowing initiate on Gzrel’s right began to move, his thoughts a feral babble of instinct and rage. A part of Ahriman’s mind locked around the champion’s thoughts and squeezed. The champion began to spasm…

 

…‘Higher, higher,’ called the raven, and he could feel the heat of the red sun on his body as the ground vanished beneath him…

One of the Harrowing by the door fired. The bolt-round skimmed Tolbek’s shoulder and exploded. He did not stop moving. Ahriman heard the telepathic command flick from Tolbek’s mind, and saw the light in the eyes of the two Rubricae flicker. They turned towards the door and fired. The bolt shells glowed as they burrowed through the air and hit the Harrowing guard. Suddenly there was blood splattering the floor. The guard screamed, blue flames spreading across his body from his shattered chest. The Rubricae fired again and fire swallowed the second guard’s head. Ahriman could feel the hunger in the flames as they burned the guards to grey ash.

 

Gzrel’s claws raked across Ahriman’s kine-shield, each blow shaking the sorcerer’s focus. He turned and looked at Gzrel, seeing the pulsing blood flowing beneath armour and flesh. Warp-twisted molecules spun in the dark liquid. Ahriman broke their bonds with a thought. Gzrel began to shake, then to howl. He scrabbled at the air, claws trailing blue sparks. His face bloated, black blood boiling from his mouth. The vents in his armour coughed and vomited foul liquid. The flesh sloughed from his face, but his skull continued to scream as he fell.

 

Cottadaron finally reacted. The twisted sorcerer sent a forked tongue of black lightning from his hand which cut through Ahriman’s kine-shield with a detonation of unlight. Pain bored into him, running up his nerves and across his skin. For an instant his focus almost slipped. He had misjudged Cottadaron; he would not make that mistake twice. Just behind Cottadaron the remaining Harrowing initiate was convulsing on the floor. Ahriman still held the warrior’s mind in his own, and he willed the other to rise. The effort made him shake and he felt a cry rising to his own lips. The champion came to his feet, swayed, and cut Cottadaron’s head from his shoulders. Ahriman ripped his mind out of the champion’s, and then the lifeless body was falling.

 

Tolbek took another pace closer, and all Ahriman could see was red, the red of death, the red of a bloated sun…

 

…the sun filled the sky. The ground was a memory forgotten beneath his feet. The raven was a silhouette of shadows against the sun. ‘Look,’ said the raven…

Tolbek was three strides from Ahriman, footsteps scattering blood drops from the floor. The sword in his hand was blue with heat. Arcs of lightning crackled across his scorched armour.

 

Ahriman was dimly aware of Maroth, still alive, cowering behind the throne. He reached out with his own mind, felt the soothsayer’s psyche like a cracked sphere in his mind’s grip. He squeezed and somewhere he heard Maroth shriek.

 

Pain filled Ahriman, sudden and bright. It felt as if a door long shut in his soul were straining at its locks. Images of raven feathers and dying suns pressed into his mind, trying to pull him back. He shut them out. Raised his hands with palms open, waiting for Tolbek…

 

…the surface of the red sun cracked, and flowed, and he realised that themolten fire was a sea of faces, and that each one was screaming…

The sword shimmered as it cut down towards Ahriman’s head.

 

The telekinetic blow was unrefined and desperate, but it worked. Tolbek’s sword twitched to the side, and Ahriman felt Tolbek’s focus break. Ahriman moved forwards, his open hands clamping over Tolbek’s grip on the sword as he pivoted. Tolbek flipped through the air, and Ahriman caught the movement with his mind and slammed his brother into the floor. He stamped down on Tolbek’s chest and felt something crack. Tolbek’s sword was in his hand, its sigil-etched blade still crawling with fire. On the floor Tolbek tried to come to his feet. Ahriman hammered his mind into Tolbek’s, breaking wards and mental shields with raw power.

 

+Who sent you, brother? How did you find me?+ Tolbek’s mind slid out of his grasp. Ahriman could feel something forming in Tolbek’s mind, even as he bored deeper trying to find truth. He punched through walls of thoughts and cut through dream structures. He was angry, and the anger gave his power a vicious strength. Tolbek retreated, vanishing into the darkness of his unconscious, taking the truth with him. In the stopped-clock reality of the throne room the chase was a space between heartbeats.

 

+To dust returned, brother,+ called Tolbek’s voice, and suddenly Ahriman was drowning in a sea of ashes. Tolbek’s mind was immolating, pulling itself apart as it retreated from Ahriman’s telepathic invasion. Tolbek’s laugh was the howl of the inferno.

 

Ahriman barely had time to pull his mind back. Tolbek’s armour cracked, glowing lines running over its surface. Then it flared with eye-searing light and crumpled to molten slag and black powder. Ahriman shook, a bitter taste of bile and blood filling his mouth. He could feel the power he had wielded washing through him, draining through his mind, and the image of the raven and the red sun beat on him and he could not close it out. The barriers in his mind and soul shattered. His mind, so long blunted to the call of the future, flooded with sights of the impossible. The vision took him and he rose on raven wings into a sky the colour of blood.

 

 

Edited June 18, 2017 by Petitioner's City

[1ncarnadine]

Do enjoy using it! I didn't realise it was Kairos, although that makes sense (in a small universe way).

 

It isn't necessarily Kairos, but it's pretty likely. When Aforgomon manifests, it has two heads, and one constantly babbles lies... sounds familiar. But then it also refers to itself as "Fatewoven" multiple times, which was another huge tip-off. On the other hand, it refers to itself as one of many Fatewoven early on. So there's the possibility that it's a shard of Kairos in the same sense that Lords of Change are fragments of Tzeentch, or perhaps it just took a form in the likeness of Kairos in mockery. You can never tell with Daemons of Tzeentch.

 

 

 

I'll borrow that policy Although what to drink....?

 

As for Tolbek ... that is one of my favourite scenes in Exile (the following quotation for purposes of criticism, is less than 5% or a chapter of the text in accordance with UK copyright laws):

 

<snip> 

 

Ahriman mentions making wine from his Tizcan vineyards in (I think?) A Thousand Sons... so there you go

 

I just had read that scene again, and dang. French knocked it out of the park there. I need to go back and re-read that trilogy some day, if I ever find the time! 

Edited June 18, 2017 by LetsYouDown

[Heliomanes]

I'm curious of his interest in or relationship with Crowleyan or Thelemic esotericism.
The following wikipedia article should make plenty of connections obvious. The prophecy of the "Crowned and Conquering Child" from the prelude to A Thousand Sons, the daemon Choronzon, and pretty much the entire grade structure of the Thousand Sons are taken from the following real world tradition, and suggests a more than cursory familiarity with the subject:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%E2%88%B4A%E2%88%B4

[Lucerne]

Did McNeil really have Sharrokyn come up again? That character needs to just die at Lucius's hands already.

[DarkChaplain]

Sharrowkyn only featured in Kryptos, the prequel short to Angel Exterminatus, where he debuted, and The Seventh Serpent, a novella. Hardly oversaturation of the character. I mean, are we going to get upset about Argel Tal being in multiple novels or Zahariel being in all the major Dark Angels stories? They have character arcs across the series. If their stories aren't over by the end of one book, then I sure as hell want to see what comes off it all some other time.

 

For the record, Sharrowkyn does not appear here. He features, yes, but only in so far as Lucius still being bitter and warp shenanigans happen. And this makes perfect sense, especially considering what else happens in said scene. Lucius went to visit the Sons in The Eternal Blade(master) directly after AE, because of his defeat and resurrection. Of course the topic of Sharrowkyn would come up when he is trying to overcome his humiliation. There'll be a reckoning down the line, but this is not the book to do it in. The scenes develop Lucius further, and that's all it needs to do in that regard.

[b1soul]

While it would be nice for Heritor to be more balanced (and use the quote box function more)...you could just ignore his posts

[Augustus]

Hm,I was always wondering: why nobody calls Sigusmund Mary Sue? "never lost a duel" "best swordsman in the legions" etc stuff, surely applies to the definition?

Cause he he's a sarcastic repressed psyker :cuss that surfs on spaceships and gets Uber powerful psychic "children" to save them only to turn it down because he's too cool handouts.

 

The rule of cool I guess.

 

Edit: spelling and to clarify I read Sevatar not sigusmund (maybe I'm the one with issues lol)

Edited June 19, 2017 by Augustus

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

Hm,I was always wondering: why nobody calls Sigusmund Mary Sue? "never lost a duel" "best swordsman in the legions" etc stuff, surely applies to the definition?

Cause he he's a sarcastic repressed psyker that surfs on spaceships and gets Uber powerful psychic "children" to save them only to turn it down because he's too cool handouts.

 

The rule of cool I guess.

 

 

You're describing Sevatar, who's many faults are on point.

[Augustus]

Nice catch WLK. The "rule of cool" Sigusmund works as well.

 

The Space Marine leaders of the Legions are written to be very powerful and great. Heck, Saul Tarvitz could be seen as one of the biggest Sues ever. Ran circles around Primarchs, saves the day, hero of the hour. Pulls one over on the "best" swordsmen ever, Lucius.

 

The leaders of the Legions are fun to read about cause they're suppose to be the best. Sharrowkwyn is an unknown who is written to be so skilled then it begs the question why is he not in charge of something more.

 

I personally, however, have no problem with him. His antics are fun to read about.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Augustus

[HeritorA]

While it would be nice for Heritor to be more balanced (and use the quote box function more)...you could just ignore his posts

? Did we already passed by that and resolved everything?

Augustus

Sevatar and Sigismund deserve each other being Mary Sue duo

 

veterannoob

Ask McNeil why he wrote a bad story instead of a new 'Thousand Sons'. Even if I'm mistaken and it is brilliant but I in my humble opinion cannot see that - it is much worse then the previous HH novels he did (Outcase dead aside of course - only Battle for the Abyss can beat that one).

  Does it have to do something with the fact that the novel was written during his transition to United States and cause 90 % of his time he was writing for Riot already?

Edited June 19, 2017 by HeritorA

[Tymell]

veterannoob

Ask McNeil why he wrote such a crapy story instead of a new 'Thousand Sons'. Even if I'm mistaken and it is brilliant but I in my humble opinion cannot see that - it is much worse then the previous HH novels he did (Outcase dead aside of course - only Battle for the Abyss can beat that one).

Does it have to do something with the fact that the novel was written during his transition to United States and cause 90 % of his time he was writing for Riot already?

See, this is just plain rude. You might want to question things about a book, you might think it's absolutely terrible (I know I've read some stuff in the HH I thought was awful), but you don't just say "ask him why he wrote a crap book". Try to show at least a modicum of respect, and if you can't do that, don't post.

 

I get that there's a language barrier, but please try to take away that this is not a good way to post if you want to get along with people.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Tymell

[R_F_D]

 

veterannoob

Ask McNeil why he wrote such a crapy story instead of a new 'Thousand Sons'. Even if I'm mistaken and it is brilliant but I in my humble opinion cannot see that - it is much worse then the previous HH novels he did (Outcase dead aside of course - only Battle for the Abyss can beat that one).

Does it have to do something with the fact that the novel was written during his transition to United States and cause 90 % of his time he was writing for Riot already?

See, this is just plain rude. You might want to question things about a book, you might think it's absolutely terrible (I know I've read some stuff in the HH I thought was awful), but you don't just say "ask him why he wrote a crap book". Try to show at least a modicum of respect, and if you can't do that, don't post.

 

I get that there's a language barrier, but please try to take away that this is not a good way to post if you want to get along with people.

 

 

I believe Graham's afterword in the Crimson King addresses some of the complainants gripes.

[cheywood]

McNeil seems to do better with bigger stories. A large cast of a characters, lots of descriptive language, and a plot that meanders for a chapter or two work better when there's some slack in the line in my opinion. That said I don't understand why anyone would say any of his works is without value. It's IP fiction. I read it to continue the plot threads I'm curious about, to understand the setting better, and for the beautifully absurd imagery it conjures. If I wanted to read a literary classic filled with beautifully flowing prose and a plot that's been agonized over for decades I have plenty of options. This forum has a lot of great info on 40k. I lurk pretty regularly, but it feels like a couple people have decided their knowledge makes them arbiters of quality and that negatively affects all discourse.

[b1soul]

Regarding Sharrowkyn, in my humble opinion...

 

*only using spoiler tags to save space*

It was blatantly obvious in AE that Sharrowkyn was elite, based on his skillset and his skill-for-skill dominance vs. Lucius.

 

That alone does not mean Sharrowkyn is a ridiculous Mary Sue.

 

After AE, it becomes clear that Sharrowkyn is Mor Deythan and an elite non-conventional operator within an already pretty non-conventional legion.

 

He's Jason Bourne, not General Patton. A lone wolf...not a first captain/commander type character like Sig, Abbs, or Sev.

 

He's the only "super-elite" RG character in the HH series. And this characyer happens to be more of an assassin and less of a commander. Is that so objectionable? Maybe the RG first captain is less of a great fighter and more of a great commander? Would actually make quite a bit of sense.

 

I suppose that this elite character happens to be a McNeill invention with no prior background might rub some ppl the wrong way. I guess that it makes him (Sharrowkyn) an "unknown" who dominated a well-known (Lucius).

 

Well, guess who was an "unknown" before ADB invented him. Guess who is the only the space marine to stalemate Sig (long-established as the peerless champion of champions) and end the fight on his own terms? That would be space-surfing, primarch-saving Sev.

 

...and yet people only complain that one is too much.

 

If Sev and Sharrowkyn were to somehow go at it on Terra, and Sev kills Sharrowkyn...nope, not a Mary Sue. If the opposite happens, forum-breaking outrage.

 

I find that a bit hypocritical.

 

BTW, not saying either is actually a Sue. I'm ranting about this double-standard.

Edited June 19, 2017 by b1soul

[A D-B]

Regarding Sharrowkyn, in my humble opinion...

 

*only using spoiler tags to save space*

It was blatantly obvious in AE that Sharrowkyn was elite, based on his skillset and his skill-for-skill dominance vs. Lucius.

 

That alone does not mean Sharrowkyn is a ridiculous Mary Sue.

 

After AE, it becomes clear that Sharrowkyn is Mor Deythan and an elite non-conventional operator within an already pretty non-conventional legion.

 

He's Jason Bourne, not General Patton. A lone wolf...not a first captain/commander type character like Sig, Abbs, or Sev.

 

He's the only "super-elite" RG character in the HH series. And this characyer happens to be more of an assassin and less of a commander. Is that so objectionable? Maybe the RG first captain is less of a great fighter and more of a great commander? Would actually make quite a bit of sense.

 

I suppose that this elite character happens to be a McNeill invention with no prior background might rub some ppl the wrong way. I guess that it makes him (Sharrowkyn) an "unknown" who dominated a well-known (Lucius).

 

Well, guess who was an "unknown" before ADB invented him. Guess who is the only the space marine to stalemate Sig (long-established as the peerless champion of champions) and end the fight on his own terms? That would be space-surfing, primarch-saving Sev.

 

...and yet people only complain that one is too much.

 

If Sev and Sharrowkyn were to somehow go at it on Terra, and Sev kills Sharrowkyn...nope, not a Mary Sue. If the opposite happens, forum-breaking outrage.

 

I find that a bit hypocritical.

 

BTW, not saying either is actually a Sue. I'm ranting about this double-standard.

 

Sevatar and Sharrowkyn aren't good comparisons, though. 

 

I won't comment on Sharrowkyn and the Mary Sue comments, but the reason no one outside /tg/ talks about Sevatar as a Mary Sue is because he suffers, constantly, and is reduced by his flaws and his decisions. Sure, he's as skilled as several other First Captains and tied with Sigismund in a duel. Because he's a First Captain. That's pretty much what they do - that wasn't me making him unrealistically badass, that was me making him badass on the same level as everyone else doing the same job as him. Sevatar is a consummate fighter - but he also spends most of the Heresy in prison; he loses faith in his primarch for being a hypocrite, and then loses faith in his Legion because of the primarch it was based on; he's practically crippled by degenerative brain issues a lot of the time now he's locked up, his childhood was garbage and basically monstrous which he's still feeling the aftereffects of now; and above all, he's a sociopath who is terrible at reading other people's intentions and emotions, which, again, he suffers for. None of these things benefit him. They all pull him down, or are the downsides to other benefits.

 

Seriously. Sev and Sharrowkyn are terrible comparisons. People comment on Sev's abilities being a serious deal, but then they're given context by his rank and the details of his life, and then balanced by the events that happen to him (or that he engineers).

 

So you couldn't be wronger on that score. 

 

Liking Sevatar is a different matter. I've said like 800 times that I had an idea for the kind of character I despise - and I wanted to give him depth and an evolution over time into something I'd like. But he's in no way a Mary Sue, which is why people tend not to accuse him of being one if they know anything about him beyond a few soundbites. 

Edited June 19, 2017 by A D-B

[HeritorA]

Tymell

Agree, sorry - edited.

 

R_F_D

Sadly not even close, Afterword can't cover that

[Augustus]

Sevatar was a new creation that is a from a Legion of cutthroats and murders that comes out as the arguably the best 1v1 warrior of all the space Marines. So great that from a Legion that operated on the fringes he's known to the top mover and shakers of the Galaxy.

 

I think some Legions' first captains would want to go toe to toe with the most powerful ork boss yet seen heedless of the danger door glory and all that jazz and survive again and again e.g. Sigusmund. I can't see a Night Lord's Captain doing that. 36 knives from the dark? Orbital Bombardment while the ork swings at ghosts? Definitely.

 

I don't see how all of his starship surfing, arguably best space marine fighter-Ness adds to his (imho) more accurate and interesting legion traits of being a acerbic, sarcastic, devious leader of a Legion of those very same kind of guys. His mind slowly eating itself is very interesting. There is also the tragic aspect to him that he has almost the ghost of someone in him that could have excelled in another universe. But guys ultimate fighting ability doesn't really imo need to be there because it it doesn't make sense imo with regards to the Night Lord's as a whole and just it feels like a thing.

 

Sharrowkwyn might seem otp because maybe his story isn't complete yet. Imagine reading only about the be remote

Emperor until Ullanor with most of the Primarchs' histories still "shrouded in mystery"

 

I like how b1soul describes him not as General Patton but as the consummate spy ninja. Well within the traits of the Raven Guard imo.

 

Finally in my unlove for Sev. I don't begrude anyone liking him or thinking contrary to what I do. Maybe it's because AD-B said he tried to make someone he didn't like (success!!) that I see things that aren't there--I'm blinded by dislike! I do think he's interesting in one hand for some of the reasons I mentioned but in the other he I feel kind of bored with him. I am no writer. I just feel that it is not fair give Sharrowkwyn an open mind.

 

I remember reading "Savage Weapons" and not having a problem with Sevatar other than how suprised I was at how that legion bred such an awesome fighter. Then I read "Prince of Crows" and felt he was otp. (Never really a "Mary Sue" with the laundry list of character faults and if I have said that then I retract it here and now)

 

But Sevatar's story line, if it continues, could make him into a charter I love to hate (so many of you already do). A "good" joker if you will. And Sharrowkwyn's could too. Who knows Magnus could be setting him up for possession or God knows else. And he could embrace it.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Augustus

[Lucerne]

Sharrowkyn only featured in Kryptos, the prequel short to Angel Exterminatus, where he debuted, and The Seventh Serpent, a novella. Hardly oversaturation of the character. I mean, are we going to get upset about Argel Tal being in multiple novels or Zahariel being in all the major Dark Angels stories? They have character arcs across the series. If their stories aren't over by the end of one book, then I sure as hell want to see what comes off it all some other time.

 

For the record, Sharrowkyn does not appear here. He features, yes, but only in so far as Lucius still being bitter and warp shenanigans happen. And this makes perfect sense, especially considering what else happens in said scene. Lucius went to visit the Sons in The Eternal Blade(master) directly after AE, because of his defeat and resurrection. Of course the topic of Sharrowkyn would come up when he is trying to overcome his humiliation. There'll be a reckoning down the line, but this is not the book to do it in. The scenes develop Lucius further, and that's all it needs to do in that regard.

He was obnoxious in Exterminatus, and downright toxic in Seventh Serpent, which really didn't need the help to be a literary fiasco with everything else wrong with it. He's a terrible character on every level and acts as a plot tumor whenever he appears.

 

At this point, the only acceptable outcome for his story arc is Lucius killing him as part of his fall to his 40k self, though I hope McNeil isn't the one to write it.

[veterannoob]

recorded. should air in 2 weeks or less. Our ep 200 is this week!

[A D-B]

Sevatar was a new creation that is a from a Legion of cutthroats and murders that comes out as the arguably the best 1v1 warrior of all the space Marines. 

 

You're kinda making my point for me, there. I mean, he's not that. That's the trick. You mention several times that it's not a Night Lords style tofight like that, and you're right. They fight unfairly. They cheat. And look at the revelation behind Sevatar's style. Firstly, Sev is mentioned in the same breath as several other First Captains when it comes to skill. Nothing unique there. But look at the guy he duelled. Sigismund, who he tied with in one single spar with nothing on the line, actually is that good. And how did Sevatar match him? By fighting unfairly. By cheating. It's even in his rules. He isn't as good as Sigismund. He isn't as good as the others, after all. But he's psychic. He can see where the blows are coming from before they even begin. Everything around him is slowed, and his perceptions are accelerated.

 

And what's his reward for all that cheating over the years? That deceit? He's now rotting in a prison, talking to dead people, enduring a crisis of faith and purpose, bleeding from every hole in his head from the pressure in his brain, doing what so many Night Lords eventually do: glorifying his Legion from better days, certain things have all gone wrong from a 'purer' time before the rebellion.

 

I'm not objecting to whether anyone likes or dislikes Sevatar. I barely even comment on the ludicrous "spaceship-surfing" comments which are so cringetastic and silly in pursuit of a great insulting soundbite over what actually happened. (If you think Space Marines can't dig their hands and feet into a void fighter and cling on for a few minutes and it's something unbelievable, well, boy are you into the wrong setting...). I don't care if a few forum comments dislike him, and I already know how popular he is, from the squillion messages about him, and from the bajillion messages Forge World got about him getting his own mini, and blah blah blah. But I do care when people miss the point or accuse him of being things he's not. Few characters are suffering as much as he suffers, all because of their own decisions. Especially when it comes to First Captains, many of whom go on to glory and spend the Horus Heresy bathed in success. Sev sure isn't doing that. He got a short story and a novella where he was badass, and now he's fallen further than pretty much anyone else of his rank. I don't know much about Sharrowkyn, but I know enough to guarantee he and Sev are really not comparable in terms of arcs and events.

Edited June 20, 2017 by A D-B

[b1soul]

But he's in no way a Mary Sue, which is why people tend not to accuse him of being one if they know anything about him beyond a few soundbites.

 

 

In response to Aaron . . .

 

 

 

* still using spoiler tags to avoid cluttering this thread *

 

 

 

 

1. I’m not saying Sev is a Mary Sue. I don’t know what TG is. If it’s a board, I don’t go there.

 

 

 

2. I think the term “Mary Sue” is almost meaningless nowadays. People seem to use it when expressing disdain for any character accused of being “over-powered”. The proper definition seems to be “an apparently perfect character who serves as a device for author wish fulfillment”. This definition is rather unhelpful because . . .

 

 

 

(1) What does “perfect” mean? What does “seemingly perfect” mean? Does it require moral rectitude? Can a likeable villain or anti-hero be a Mary Sue? Can only conventional heroes like Silver Age Superman be Mary Sues?

 

 

 

(2) How can we peer into an author’s mind and confirm that he’s playing out his fantasies through a fictional character?

 

In my view, Sev doesn’t fit the mold of a traditional Mary Sue. He’s a likeable villain (likeable to his readership) or at best a wise-cracking badboy anti-hero a la Deadpool or Wolverine.

 

Sharrowkyn seems closer to the Mary Sue mold (he’s a “good guy” loyalist after all), but does he really deserve the label just because he beats Lucius and manages to snipe Fulgrim (unsuccessfully I might add . . . he actually ends up helping Fulgrim milk sympathy points)? I say no.

 

 

 

3. As for whether it’s appropriate to compare Sev and Sharrowkyn . . .

 

 

 

In my view, people typically label Sharrowkyn as a “Mary Sue” because he offends their sensibilities (or biases) by being too awesome or too badass (i.e. “over-powered”).

 

 

 

In that limited respect, Sharrowkyn and Sev are comparable. Sev also comes across as a super-awesome badass who generally beats his opponents and looks cool doing it (hence his reputation both in-universe and among the fanbase).

 

Therefore, my position is that if you have an axe to grind with Sharrowkyn because he’s a special snowflake, wraith-slipping super-badass who’s really good at winning, you should grind that same axe with Sev because he’s also a special snowflake, repressed-psyker super-badass who’s really good at winning (not always of course).

 

By the way, I’m not using the term “special snowflake” or “badass” to imply bad writing or some fault of the author. I’m using the term to emphasize how some characters are perceived by the fanbase as very unique or powerful, respectively.

 

4. I definitely think there’s some legion bias going on here.

 

 

 

The Mary Sue accusations are more often thrown at loyalists because they’re the good guys, the heroes if you will.

 

 

 

Out of the loyalists, the UM (both as a legion and as individual characters) typically get the most flack - even though since the beginning of the HH series, they haven’t really struck me as markedly superior to other legions or other-legion characters in any sense. They just have a lot of guys, really.

 

 

 

To illustrate this bias, could you imagine the outrage if a UM character somehow stalemated Sig in a duel?

 

 

 

5. Regarding whether Sev is “elevated” . . .

 

 

 

Yes, I think he is. He is not “just” a First Captain. He is the guy who Sig could not beat. There’s no downplaying that. Yes, First Captains and Legion Champions are all exceptional, but Sigismund is often implied to be one-of-kind, a champion among champions. It is not implied that it would be a coin-toss between Sig and any other First Captain or Legion Champion.

 

 

 

In my view, putting another captain or champion on the same level is clearly a form of elevation and a way to emphasize the other character’s consummate skills.

 

 

 

6. Is elevating Sev in this manner somehow wrong or equivalent to making him a Mary Sue? No, it just makes him an extremely powerful and exceptional character in the setting, on par with Sig, whom some once viewed as peerless.

 

 

 

Why can’t the Traitors have a First Captain (or multiple First Captains and champions) capable of hanging with Sig?

 

No reason really.

 

 

 

Why can’t the RG have a consummately skilled assassin among their ranks?

 

Again, no reason really.

 

 

 

If Sev is what you’d expect of the Night Lords First Captain, Sharrowkyn is what you’d expect of an RG master assassin.

 

 

 

I don’t see how one is somehow too kickass but the other isn’t. They either both are, or they both aren’t.

 

 

 

If you’re distinguishing between Sharrowkyn and Sev based on character history, personality etc. – yes, the two appear quite unalike. However, I’m not sure whether those qualities alone would justify labeling Sharrowkyn as a Mary Sue.

 

 

 

I suspect the real reason for the Mary Sue accusations is faction-specific bias and/or a dislike of how skilled Sharrowkyn is portrayed to be…or if you’re a Lucius fan.

[A D-B]

 

Yes, I think he is. He is not “just” a First Captain. He is the guy who Sig could not beat. There’s no downplaying that. 

 

I dealt with that above, but it doesn't need downplaying, because it's not true. It looks true, but then you see it was a lie, you see the truth behind the trick, and he's now spending his life suffering for stuff like that.

 

I don't think it's Legion bias that's down to the Mary Sue differential, frankly. And I don't see it as justified, as explained above, for the two characters to be compared as you're doing it. It's surface level stuff, without delving into context, which is always dangerous. But either way, we'll agree to disagree.

[b1soul]

 

Yes, I think he is. He is not “just” a First Captain. He is the guy who Sig could not beat. There’s no downplaying that.

 

 

I dealt with that above, but it doesn't need downplaying, because it's not true. It looks true, but then you see it was a lie, you see the truth behind the trick, and he's now spending his life suffering for stuff like that.

 

I don't think it's Legion bias that's down to the Mary Sue differential, frankly. And I don't see it as justified, as explained above, for the two characters to be compared as you're doing it. It's surface level stuff, without delving into context, which is always dangerous. But either way, we'll agree to disagree.

Not trying to force my thoughts upon you or anyone else...not that I even could

 

My view is...

 

It think it's a combination of faction bias (loyalists get called Mary Sue quite often), legion bias (if you're not particularly fond of the RG), character bias (if you have a soft spot for Lucius), and author bias (if you don't like McNeill's writing).

 

I agree that beyond the similarities I've listed, Sharrowkyn and Sev represent fundamentally different personalities, outlooks and goals.

 

I just don't think people are delving into that character analysis when they throw around the Mary Sue accusation. In my experience, "Mary Sue" has become synonymous with "too powerful for my taste".

[A D-B]

 

 

Yes, I think he is. He is not “just” a First Captain. He is the guy who Sig could not beat. There’s no downplaying that.

 

I dealt with that above, but it doesn't need downplaying, because it's not true. It looks true, but then you see it was a lie, you see the truth behind the trick, and he's now spending his life suffering for stuff like that.

 

I don't think it's Legion bias that's down to the Mary Sue differential, frankly. And I don't see it as justified, as explained above, for the two characters to be compared as you're doing it. It's surface level stuff, without delving into context, which is always dangerous. But either way, we'll agree to disagree.

Not trying to force my thoughts upon you or anyone else...not that I even could

 

My view is...

 

It think it's a combination of faction bias (loyalists get called Mary Sue quite often), legion bias (if you're not particularly fond of the RG), character bias (if you have a soft spot for Lucius), and author bias (if you don't like McNeill's writing).

 

I agree that beyond the similarities I've listed, Sharrowkyn and Sev represent fundamentally different personalities, outlooks and goals.

 

I just don't think people are delving into that character analysis when they throw around the Mary Sue accusation. In my experience, "Mary Sue" has become synonymous with "too powerful for my taste".

 

 

I agree with the term meaning nothing these days, but my objections to the comparison aren't founded in that, really. Maybe people won't say it about Sharrowkyn as much in time, as he gets more written about him? I don't know enough about the character to say. But they don't say it about Sevatar much because he has a lot of context to all of his achievements, and subsequent downfalls because of them. Sev had the impression of being all that and a bag of chips, but the reality was quickly revealed that he was faking a lot of it, Night Lords-style, and has fallen harder than most Space Marines ever will. Context destroys the comparisons between them right off the bat, that's all.

 

And I've cluttered this thread up enough, so I'm out of here, back to the word count mines!