HH Book 44: The Crimson King

[Kelborn]

Though we might not get to know of what will happen to him, I'd love to read about Sev on Terra, fighting for his life.

 

When he's beaten or he realizes that victory cannot be achieved, he dropped his guard, looking to the skies, seeing a crow, flying over the battlefield. He feels the warmth of the sun, something he embraces for the first time.

 

Then, just like his father, does he let it happen. He is stabbed by his opponent or maybe beheaded as well? He dies, with a smile on his face. Finally....at peace.

 

 

Bit of cliché, I know. But (at least for me) it would fit.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Kelborn

[bluntblade]

It's worth noting that when another Legion's champion attempted the Sevatar headbutt, Sigismund put that warrior on the ground.

[HeritorA]

Augustus

I do remember a long time ago at his first big event A D-B has said that he hates Sevatar.

 

recorded. should air in 2 weeks or less. Our ep 200 is this week!

Remind me please - what ep.200 will cover?

 

b1soul bluntblade

Sevatar won over Sigismund only by cheating and spiting acid saliva into his face (not headbut as I recall). Can't see that he is overpowered. On the contrary - it's Sigi who is overpowered as hell.

Plus let's get back to the topic of the Crimson King.

Sevatar vs Sharowkynn vs Sigismund could be discussed in a new thread. It's page 10th now and the last 2 are the measurement of prowess of characters who are not in any case related to the Crimson King novel

[b1soul]

Sharrowkyn shows up in Crimson King...so semi-relevant.

 

That said, it was just a headbutt. Sev did not spit acid saliva into Sig's face.

[Tymell]

Sharrowkyn shows up in Crimson King...so semi-relevant.

He does? I must've missed it, when was that?

[R_F_D]

Sharrowkyn only featured in Kryptos, the prequel short to Angel Exterminatus, where he debuted, and The Seventh Serpent, a novella. Hardly oversaturation of the character. I mean, are we going to get upset about Argel Tal being in multiple novels or Zahariel being in all the major Dark Angels stories? They have character arcs across the series. If their stories aren't over by the end of one book, then I sure as hell want to see what comes off it all some other time.

 

For the record, Sharrowkyn does not appear here. He features, yes, but only in so far as Lucius still being bitter and warp shenanigans happen. And this makes perfect sense, especially considering what else happens in said scene. Lucius went to visit the Sons in The Eternal Blade(master) directly after AE, because of his defeat and resurrection. Of course the topic of Sharrowkyn would come up when he is trying to overcome his humiliation. There'll be a reckoning down the line, but this is not the book to do it in. The scenes develop Lucius further, and that's all it needs to do in that regard.

 

Haven't read it but I think DC sums it up in the above.

[HeritorA]

Sharrowkyn shows up in Crimson King...so semi-relevant.

 

That said, it was just a headbutt. Sev did not spit acid saliva into Sig's face.

We need A D-B to clarify. I do remember from the Prince of Crows that he spat in Sigi face

 

A D-B

Please, can you remind us?

[b1soul]

 

Sharrowkyn shows up in Crimson King...so semi-relevant.

He does? I must've missed it, when was that?

My mistake...it seems he only gets mentioned

 

For the record, Sharrowkyn does not appear here. He features, yes, but only in so far as Lucius still being bitter and warp shenanigans happen. And this makes perfect sense, especially considering what else happens in said scene. Lucius went to visit the Sons in The Eternal Blade(master) directly after AE, because of his defeat and resurrection. Of course the topic of Sharrowkyn would come up when he is trying to overcome his humiliation. There'll be a reckoning down the line, but this is not the book to do it in. The scenes develop Lucius further, and that's all it needs to do in that regard.

Edited June 20, 2017 by b1soul

[godking]

 

Sharrowkyn shows up in Crimson King...so semi-relevant.

 

That said, it was just a headbutt. Sev did not spit acid saliva into Sig's face.

We need A D-B to clarify. I do remember from the Prince of Crows that he spat in Sigi face

 

A D-B

Please, can you remind us?

 

No he headbutted him

[Augustus]

I feel it seems that AD-B thinks 1st Captain equals peerless warrior. I think it's all about... context.

 

"If Sev is what you’d expect of the Night Lords First Captain, Sharrowkyn is what you’d expect of an RG master assassin."

 

Great b1soul. Exactly. Except Sevatar is what I expect only +1. It's totally unnecessary for him to be such a consummate warrior to the point where Sigusmund can't beat him. From a Legion of thieves and cutthroats versus a Legion that fights with "honor"

 

What would people say if Kyme wrote that a World Eaters librarian was the most powerful psyker or at least on par with Ahriman? A thoughtful totally in control psyker with mastery of the warp. I think people would be up in arms. It's just out of context. Oh but he's also the most angry violent warrior in the Legion when it suits him to be and said temper caused him to strangle his parents from his crib and eat them.

 

A Legion of consummate pilots would likely have a leader who knew void or aerial combat to the fullest. I wouldn't expect them to be the ultimate tank hunter killer. The argument that they're Space Marines has merit but so are the best tank hunter killer Space Marines.

 

If Superman beat his wife it doesn't make him any less ootp imo. Adding character faults on top of building him up as one of the best doesn't just balance the sum. It's not a 0 sum game. I think it just creates power creep (which I while I don't read comics, they seem to be plagued by this).

 

It's not just about space ship surfing. That's what it was. It's space ship surfing after a trap was sprung on them being able to board the flagship of the perpetrators of said ambush, killing three peerless warriors (he said they were and claimed their heads) on top of planeswalking in the mind of Primarchs, passing out, surviving and going on to murder more at a later date. A few of these things wouldn't be as unsettling but they come all together. When he was captured I wasn't worried about the outcome and felt justified when her gets busted out slaying Dark Angel librarian(s)in the process. Oh. But he allows himself to be captured -- again.

 

 

 

Lots of people find him interesting. I find his backstory fascinating. But that doesn't discredit what I think about him and what I think about Sharrowkwyn. I'm probably being somewhat of a contrarion and apologize for that because if I have a problem with Sevatar I should have one with Sharrowkwyn.

 

Finally to say that I don't understand or feel that something is possible in this setting and maybe that I don't belong in reading it is unfair and really dismissive(you are very nice on the forums and I'm sure you didn't mean it to come across that way). I never said I thought he couldn't do it. I do think it's silly coming on top of everything else he had done and certainly with in the context of the story. Its not my job to hunt around and compare rules to characters that appear in the fiction you write and I read. Just because you say it so here and now doesn't mean when I read the Sigusmund couldn't defeat him a duel I'm suddenly suppose to realize that Sigusmund is still better than him? Or at least not inferior to?

Edited June 21, 2017 by Augustus

[Loesh]

Do we know Sigismund can't beat Sev? Sev cheated to end the duel cause he was 'bored' of it, just because it was taking a long time doesn't mean he was going to win.

Did we know Gaviel Loken could beat Lucius in a fight? I remember people were up in arms about that one where Loken punched Lucius out, but guess what happens in the rematch? Loken loses. 

 

Fighting in a duel has never been as great a indicator of a warriors prowess in the 40k setting as when they fight for keeps.

[Augustus]

Too right Loesh. So people shouldn't get upset then with Sharrowkwyn and Lucius.

[Loesh]

My main issue with Sharrowkyn isn't that he beats Lucius(I think it's a good setup for later character development like the Eternal Blade and a reckoning down the line.) more that I always found Sharrowkyn to just be a...bland character, in the same line of Drizzit Do'urden. But Drizz was super popular, so what do I know?

[Augustus]

He's just a ninja-y space marine so far (almost a troupe). While the action sequences are interesting to read about, I also feel he is pretty bland for someone who has had a lot of screen time.

[Loesh]

But at the same time all of that takes the bite out of the idea that Sevs as good a swordsman as Sigi, he's not, never has been imo, so the comparison to a World Eater Librarian on par with Ahirman doesn't really gel with me.

[Augustus]

But he isn't no slouch either. I haven't looked at Sevatar's rules or anything but ive seen them mentioned around and they're top tier. If we had more stories describing Sigusmund stalemating people or Sevatar losing. We have a senschal to a Primarch bring described as gutter trash and the guy who said it thought himself one of the best in the Legions and stared that Sevatar was one that could beat him. We have a duel mentioned in a few places and descriptions of both Sevatar's and Sigusmund fighting ability to the point where we know he's "up there"

 

I apologize if it is coming across if it's as simple " night Lord's can't beat

Be -this-. It's a big universe. I'm just saying that it doesn't work for me. I can't see Sevatar training like abSigismund. And if it's psyker powers doing it, it makes me feel "like another check box was checked in his data sheet because the Legion of psykers should pump out a lot of the same.

 

I said before I don't begrude anyone liking his abilities or his character traits. He's not my cup of tea for the reasons I provided. If your rebuttal to the reasons why I don't like him is "Space Marines do amazing things especially 1st captains deal with it" but Sharrowkwys exploits are silly then ... I dunno how -I- could balance the two.

[Loesh]

It's not even 'Space Marines do amazing things' it's '1st captains do amazing things' and the Night Lords, as a rule, while not the strongest individual Astartes by far wouldn't suddenly skip blade training because they favor overwhelming tactics and terror strikes, especially anyone in a place of command, that would just be silly. 

[b1soul]

I feel it seems that AD-B thinks 1st Captain equals peerless warrior. I think it's all about... context.

I think ADB is just working within the setting

 

In this setting, Chapter Masters and Captains tend to be better fighters than their lower-ranked subordinates, i.e. there's a strong correlation between rank and skill-at-arms. It's like a universe where 5-star generals are almost guaranteed to be better at CQC than sergeants because of higher rank...

 

I agree it's a quite silly (along with the prevalence of melee combat in the setting, which does not lack powerful ranged weaponry).

 

"If Sev is what you’d expect of the Night Lords First Captain, Sharrowkyn is what you’d expect of an RG master assassin."

Great b1soul. Exactly. Except Sevatar is what I expect only +1. It's totally unnecessary for him to be such a consummate warrior to the point where Sigusmund can't beat him. From a Legion of thieves and cutthroats versus a Legion that fights with "honor"

Well, that boils down to personal preference

 

If it were up to me, I wouldn't have any other SM stalemate (or beat) Sig before or during the HH. I would set him up to be truly exceptional at dueling. Almost like a no-nonsense Lucius (with none of the debilitating arrogance) and maybe even more focus and dedication to his craft.

 

But it's not up to me. It's up to BL authours like ADB.

 

While Sev may not be entirely equal to Sig in raw skill and focus, he has psychic precog and heightened awareness. These put Sev roughly on par with Sig in combat effectiveness.

 

When the two duel, they are essentially "equal but for different reasons" if you will: Sev has his psychic bonus whereas Sig has his ridiculous skill and focus.

 

Sev ends up disqualifying himself (and thus denying Sig a true victory) via illegal headbutt.

 

It's something you'd expect from a NL who doesn't want to see a duel through to its ultimate conclusion.

 

My gut instinct is that if they had continued to fight adhering to the duel's rules, Sev would have probably lost. Sev may (or mat not) have broken the rules to save face. "Boredom" may have been a more convenient excuse on Sev's part.

 

Indeed, Sev does not strike me as someone who would take a loss with good grace. There is an arrogance about him...maybe not as strong as that of Lucius, but it's definitely there.

 

I'm rambling a bit here...but Sev's 1 on 1 prowess could be viewed as an exception within the VIIIth and not exemplary of it.

 

Is it a "good" creative choice? Boils down to one's own preferences

 

What would people say if Kyme wrote that a World Eaters librarian was the most powerful psyker or at least on par with Ahriman?

Well, keep in mind that Sig is an IF, who are known more for their fortification skills than for melee prowess. If we're going by legion strengths, Khârn should be the pinnacle of personal combat revered among the legions.

 

That said, when Khârn faces Erebus at the end of Betrayer...I think he's roughly equal to either Sig or Sev. He gets scary.

 

Just because you say it so here and now doesn't mean when I read the Sigusmund couldn't defeat him a duel I'm suddenly suppose to realize that Sigusmund is still better than him? Or at least not inferior to?

The two are roughly equal in effectiveness. I think ADB is just saying that Sev is only able to keep up with Sig because of his psychic ability. In that sense, Sig is the better fighter (from a purist perspective)

[Augustus]

 

Thanks b1soul.

 

But I feel I'm not articulate enough to express myself on this topic. Im going to stick with my final paragraph of my previous post.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Augustus

[Scribe]

It's easy, 500 lbs of 7 feet tall power armoured giants, are not Ninja's. It's an idiotic leap to make. :p

 

That is why Sharokyn is a poor concept.

 

Like are people aware of the sheer volume a being of that scale would fill?

 

The presence they would demand?

 

It's obscene, and completely jumps the shark.

[b1soul]

Scribe...

 

SW capable of stealth are described in Prospero Burns and Unremembered Empire

 

Talos is capable of stealth in the NL series

 

Corax, a bloody 10ft primarch is capable of stealth in pretty much all the fluff about him

 

Horus, another massive primarch is capable of stealth in Fear to Tread

 

As a RG Mor Deythan capable of "wraith-slipping", Sharrowkyn is capable of great stealth

 

How is that silly in the context of the 40K setting?

[hopkins]

astartes top trumps, again?

[DarkChaplain]

Exactly b1soul. Especially considering that Corax himself has an in-depth explanation for why he does the entire stealth thing and that some of his Legion, notably the Mor Deythan of which Sharrowkyn is one, inherited some of his ability. They're not just "there", they're just yet another manifestation of warp-related psychic abilities. Some summon storms, others do Force Lightning, Raven Guard wraith-slip and use their Force powers to tell observers they've never seen them.

 

I mean, Sharrowkyn's abilities are founded right there in the Raven Guard's background. Even ForgeWorld covered it in those big, well-revered books that everybody and their mother get their badass characters from nowadays.

The Mor Deythan are the literal elite of Raven Guard stealth tactics, which they are known for even 10,000 years later when Mor Deythan aren't really around anymore (or at least not actively covered in the lore; I wouldn't even be surprised if somebody like Shrike had it in him, unknowingly). If you complain about one kind of elite doing things a Legion is known for, you might as well complain about all the rest doing the same.

 

Nevermind that Sharrowkyn as a character is also flawed, most notably by his tendency to mistrust and work alone. He is terrible at coordinating things with others. Even during The Seventh Serpent, the Iron Hands could only hope Nykona was somewhere watching to snipe the foes away, because he was inherently doing stuff on his own. He sneaks onto another ship and screws up the budding trust of his mates. He can't hold a candle to the Salamander's forging skills, not even remotely. He isn't good at tech like the Hands, he is sidelined in the decision making up until the end of The Seventh Serpent. He's so used to acting on his own that he lacks competence when it comes to organized fighting or the chain of command. He's not somebody for line duties, he's not exactly expressive, he's not balls-on-the-table-wisecracking like Sevatar often has been. I can see him being dull to many people, but I don't see him as overpowered or flawless at all. There's more to it than his kill count.

 

All he does is pick his targets well and execute them from the shadows, whether by sniping or backstabbing. He has yet to actually be forced into open combat for any amount of time. I'd wager that when the time comes, he'll do worse than his fellows of the Sysypheum. He got the drop on Lucius once, in a duelling situation. It will not happen again.

[Lucerne]

Call me when McNeil has genuine, painful consequences for Sharrowsue's alleged flaws or at least makes him less than a plot tumor that somehow has admiration and love from the entire cast of the novel he's victimizing.

 

No, being too high and mighty to help the lowly side characters who aren't Sharrowkyn doesn't count. I want him to be HURT by his attitude and mistakes, or at least for it to have horrible consequences for him and not other people in the story. Have him screw up an assassination, or get the support cast butchered and leave him alone or ANYTHING that's a result of him having human feelings. Don't have him shrug that off. Have him make mistakes.

 

What makes Sharrowsue a terrible character isn't just a lack of depth to him, or the lack of anything particular interesting about him beyond being "the brooding edgy loner who's just plain better at everything he does that all the lowly peons around him and who seems to have read ahead in the plot a few dozen pages, all the while everyone who trusts him is right to do so and those who question him always turn out to be wrong and he upstages all the canon characters". It isn't the fact that he steals screentime from novels he has no real place in and from other, more interesting characters- the way BL has mishandled the Alpha Legion plotline is a fiasco and that it had to play secondfiddle to goddamn Sharrowsue having his ego stroked by ALPHARIUS of all people at the end of a pig's breakfast of a novel is downright insulting. It isn't the fact that Sharrowsue doesn't seem to have developed as a character at all- I'd even say he hasn't developed a character to begin with! It's not that Sharrowsue's survival is never really in doubt, nor does he himself face genuine hardship. He shoots Fulgrim in the face and gets off scott free. He not only kills Lucius, he even makes a comment he has NO way of knowing should be AT ALL relevant and that comes over as McNeil spitting in the face of fans who expect the lore to apply and inconvenience him- never mind how ridiculous it is for the proud, selfish to "take no pleasure" in chopping up Lucius. It's essentially McNeil jumping through hoops for his pet snowflake to get away with a ridiculous feat with absolutely no consequences.

 

Hell, if he HAD been eaten by Lucius as his first victim, that would have been a fairly fitting end to a fairly terrible character and tied the story together much more coherently.

 

It's that he never made me root for his success or sympathize with him on any level. He's not even meant as a villain that should make the reader want him dead. That reaction isn't to McNeil's credit, as it's because he's an irritating, boring, 2 dimensional character who steals screen time that could have been used for literally anything else.

 

In short, Sharrokyn is nothing but an extended argument that Horus should have finished the job on Istvaan and spared the Heresy an annoying and uninteresting character who basically acts as a tumor for the novel he's in. The best defense for him is that he's a generic Raven Guard (and I just want to say that one of the apologists above thinks comparing him to Primarchs is somehow a defense of him being plausible...), and he eats far too much screentime for that.

 

I would rather have read about a servitor on the Alpha Legion ship than what we got in Seventh Serpent. It'd have been a better glimpse into their plotline for starters, it'd have given a better glimpse into the story that the novella was supposed to be about, and the servitor has more personality than Sharrowsue.

 

As a tangent Mark Twain sums up why Seventh Serpent is a failed novel and honestly McNeil's worst work that I'm aware of:

 

 

 

1. That a tale shall accomplish something and arrive somewhere. But the "Deerslayer" tale accomplishes nothing and arrives in air.

2. They require that the episodes in a tale shall be necessary parts of the tale, and shall help to develop it. But as the "Deerslayer" tale is not a tale, and accomplishes nothing and arrives nowhere, the episodes have no rightful place in the work, since there was nothing for them to develop.

3. They require that the personages in a tale shall be alive, except in the case of corpses, and that always the reader shall be able to tell the corpses from the others. But this detail has often been overlooked in the "Deerslayer" tale.

4. They require that the personages in a tale, both dead and alive, shall exhibit a sufficient excuse for being there. But this detail also has been overlooked in the "Deerslayer" tale.

They require that when the author describes the character of a personage in the tale, the conduct and conversation of that personage shall justify said description. But this law gets little or no attention in the "Deerslayer" tale, as Natty Bumppo's case will amply prove.

8. They require that crass stupidities shall not be played upon the reader as "the craft of the woodsman, the delicate art of the forest," by either the author or the people in the tale. But this rule is persistently violated in the "Deerslayer" tale.

9. They require that the personages of a tale shall confine themselves to possibilities and let miracles alone; or, if they venture a miracle, the author must so plausibly set it forth as to make it look possible and reasonable. But these rules are not respected in the "Deerslayer" tale.

10. They require that the author shall make the reader feel a deep interest in the personages of his tale and in their fate; and that he shall make the reader love the good people in the tale and hate the bad ones. But the reader of the "Deerslayer" tale dislikes the good people in it, is indifferent to the others, and wishes they would all get drowned together.

11. They require that the characters in a tale shall be so clearly defined that the reader can tell beforehand what each will do in a given emergency. But in the "Deerslayer" tale, this rule is vacated.

 

Seventh Serpent is probably the worst story under the Horus Heresy label- at least Battle of the Abyss was kind enough to keep to disposable redshirts and not actively insult fans of the Legions involved.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Ugolino

[NKCougar]

My main issue with Sharrowkyn isn't that he beats Lucius(I think it's a good setup for later character development like the Eternal Blade and a reckoning down the line.) more that I always found Sharrowkyn to just be a...bland character, in the same line of Drizzit Do'urden. But Drizz was super popular, so what do I know?

In the beginning, Drizzt was a very special character tbh. Something like him hadn't been done that well. As the series continues, he gets more Sueish, but in the beginning he really was an awesome character.

 

The problem was the amount of clones that followed. Drizzt went from unique and one of a very select group of drow that turned their backs to Lolth to just one of thousands - the Drow went from 99.9% chaotic evil to like a 60/40 split, if you take all the spinoffs and clones of Drizzt.

 

But on topic, the problem with Sharrowkyn vs. Sevatar and Lucius is the character building. Sharrowkyn wasn't an established character - which both of those are - and he came out of nowhere beating Lucius and we know next to nothing about him. We know his strengths (marksman, Mor Deythan, peerless duellist), but we don't know his weakness - if he even has one. Continued in spoilers

 

Sevatar is being eaten alive by his psyker powers. He has the advantage of being a precog, making him a hell of a duellist, but it also makes him uniquely weak and vulnerable.

 

Lucius - well, Lucius. We know his weakness - he's nuts. He's flashy, and isn't any good as a commander. He's also, in my opinion, way overrated. This guy is an excellent swordsman, but his whole shtick is coming back from the dead in the body of whoever killed him, and we can be sure he has died many times. This is a big deal - Lucius actively hurts chaos when he duels, because if he wins, an aspiring champion is dead, and if he loses, a more powerful or more skilled champion dies. Anyway /endrant.

 

Sharrowkyn just doesn't have that. I haven't seen a serious weakness to him yet. Even Sigismund at least has the Keeler arc to characterize him, and his distress at the verbal meat tenderizing his father gave him.

 

Sharrowkyn's lack of knowledge concerning corax's fate could be used to flesh him out. I think we will see him in a Raven Guard focused (or at least one where Corax plays a part) novel, trying to come to terms with everything the Legion and his primarch endured, and trying to fit back in after his experiences. Hopefully, that opportunity to flesh him out and make him a character that can hold his own (on a story based level) with the above three.