HH Book 44: The Crimson King

[helterskelter]

but we don't know his weakness - if he even has one.

 

Who always knows he's there? The Salamander apothecary. He can see him.

I'd be willing to put 50p on a few others that would be able to see him if he chanced upon wrong circumstance. Such as Night Lords, traitor Raven Guard, and demons.

Also also, lucius deserved it.

[NKCougar]

 

but we don't know his weakness - if he even has one.

 

Who always knows he's there? The Salamander apothecary. He can see him.

I'd be willing to put 50p on a few others that would be able to see him if he chanced upon wrong circumstance. Such as Night Lords, traitor Raven Guard, and demons.

Also also, lucius deserved it.

Lucius deserved everything that happened to him aside from immortality. That guy sucks.

 

I don't think having a loyal legionary able to see you (it takes a primarch to do it in one novel) is much of a character trait for another loyal legionary, though. Again, continued in spoilers below:

 

Edit: daemons (and potentially traitors, though I find it doubtful, just maybe the Night Lords or their Librarians could do it) seeing him is a tossup - it's less of a weakness, more of a strength denied (it doesn't sit well with me to call it a weakness, as it's bringing him down to the level of a legionary, not something that really causes him problems like Sevatar or Lucius)

Like I said before, the others have serious problems and flaws (other than Sigismund, because he still needs to get fleshed out more - he's awesome, but while the Keeler arc is a good start, he needs more) - Sevatar slowly being consumed, Lucius being a plaything for daemonic entities behind the veil and absolutely insane.

 

I do hope to see those opportunities for his character to grow, though. I think him trying to acclimate to all the changes - mutant Raptors, barely 5,000 remaining Legionaries, Corax not being able to trust anyone because of the Alpha Legion - all of those are great ways to flesh out Sharrowkyn into an actual character with doubts and worries, rather than the elemental force of stabbing that he is right now.

Edited June 21, 2017 by NKCougar

[1ncarnadine]

 

Lucius - well, Lucius. We know his weakness - he's nuts. He's flashy, and isn't any good as a commander. He's also, in my opinion, way overrated. This guy is an excellent swordsman, but his whole shtick is coming back from the dead in the body of whoever killed him, and we can be sure he has died many times. This is a big deal - Lucius actively hurts chaos when he duels, because if he wins, an aspiring champion is dead, and if he loses, a more powerful or more skilled champion dies. Anyway /endrant.

 

Well, on Lucius, to be fair...

 

Lucius winning or losing is a very good thing for Chaos either way. It's a very bad thing for the Traitor Legions (I would argue especially for the Black Legion, most specifically Abaddon's goals). Win or lose, the gods get another soul to chew on and She Who Thirsts gets a champion that continues to empower her with his excesses. Lucius is deep down the path of Slaanesh, too. He wants to indulge in everything, even the sensation of myriad deaths, and Slaanesh grants him that privilege. And again, in return, his experiences echo in the warp and make Slaanesh stronger. Lucius could care less about the other Legions, or even his own, as long as he gets to experience more sensation.

 

But yeah, spot on for his weakness. He's bananas crazy and utterly untrustworthy.

 

By 40k he very much represents a Legionary that has completely given himself over to be a perfect Champion of Chaos and all that that entails, abandoning any pretense of Legion, as do Khârn, Typhus, and actually, in his own way, Ahriman. Ahriman thinks he's doing things for his Legion, of course, but we all know the truth. Right, Hathor Maat? Tolbek? Amon? Sanakht?

[NKCougar]

 

 

Lucius - well, Lucius. We know his weakness - he's nuts. He's flashy, and isn't any good as a commander. He's also, in my opinion, way overrated. This guy is an excellent swordsman, but his whole shtick is coming back from the dead in the body of whoever killed him, and we can be sure he has died many times. This is a big deal - Lucius actively hurts chaos when he duels, because if he wins, an aspiring champion is dead, and if he loses, a more powerful or more skilled champion dies. Anyway /endrant.

Well, on Lucius, to be fair...

 

Lucius winning or losing is a very good thing for Chaos either way. It's a very bad thing for the Traitor Legions (I would argue especially for the Black Legion, most specifically Abaddon's goals). Win or lose, the gods get another soul to chew on and She Who Thirsts gets a champion that continues to empower her with his excesses. Lucius is deep down the path of Slaanesh, too. He wants to indulge in everything, even the sensation of myriad deaths, and Slaanesh grants him that privilege. And again, in return, his experiences echo in the warp and make Slaanesh stronger. Lucius could care less about the other Legions, or even his own, as long as he gets to experience more sensation.

 

But yeah, spot on for his weakness. He's bananas crazy and utterly untrustworthy.

 

By 40k he very much represents a Legionary that has completely given himself over to be a perfect Champion of Chaos and all that that entails, abandoning any pretense of Legion, as do Khârn, Typhus, and actually, in his own way, Ahriman. Ahriman thinks he's doing things for his Legion, of course, but we all know the truth. Right, Hathor Maat? Tolbek? Amon? Sanakht?

Fair point - Chaos gets stronger; chaotic legions get weaker. So I suppose in that way it is a double dip for Chaos, as it doesn't seem like ending the imperium is truly their goal.

[1ncarnadine]

 

Fair point - Chaos gets stronger; chaotic legions get weaker. So I suppose in that way it is a double dip for Chaos, as it doesn't seem like ending the imperium is truly their goal.

 

 

1000%. The Imperium being a sputtering, miserable thing but continuing on for as long as possible is like a never-ending tub of ice cream for the dark gods, and the Traitor Legions actually being Legions normally threatens their delicious party. Abaddon threatens that.

Edited June 21, 2017 by LetsYouDown

[NKCougar]

 

 

Fair point - Chaos gets stronger; chaotic legions get weaker. So I suppose in that way it is a double dip for Chaos, as it doesn't seem like ending the imperium is truly their goal.

 

1000%. The Imperium being a sputtering, miserable thing but continuing on for as long as possible is like a never-ending tub of ice cream for the dark gods, and the Traitor Legions actually being Legions normally threatens their delicious party. Abaddon threatens that.

Nope, bet they bring Sanguinius back. That would be the cherry on the :cuss sundae. And a lot of BA fans would eat it - heck, as much as I would hate it, I'd still read the fluff just because it's Sanguinius.

 

And the model sales. Bet money the model sales would be apocalyptic.

 

Anyway on topic, spoilers below.

 

Have re-read the book a couple of times and let it marinate. I still can't get over (final warning end of book spoiler) Dio Promus' death. The VI, Legionaries that in a previous book, written by the same author, had :

 

received forewarning of Horus' rebellion, but from a warp-tainted source. They decided to execute this source and ignore that warning. And they knew they were right to, for such things are not to be trusted.

 

So when they not only abstained from immediately killing a daemon, but stopped and conversed with it (literally right after saying that no son of Fenris would ever listen RP a daemon) - then decided that listening to a daemon would be a good idea, proceed to confront promus, and when he says yes, he killed loyal Legionaries because it was his emperor-sworn duty - they kill him. The legion that understands duty more completely than any other had a problem with him doing his.

 

On top of THAT, Aforgomon has just finished his lecture on fatewoven moments - where small actions have vast consequences. So they said 'hey guys, like, I know we aren't supposed to listen to literal daemons from the warp, but just this one time, when our actions could effect the fate of the galaxy and the Emperor, let's do it! It'll be fun, and like the biggest prank ever!'

 

Yeah I don't like that part.

 

Edit: I think that if you want the VI to take the word of a daemon for anything, there should be progression - show them enraged about the warning they missed, that they could have ended it before it began - just give me something to lead me to understand why they decided to listen. It irks me to not even get to see the switch flip, let alone the mental process to reach that point.

 

Now that my rant is over, I have also come to a decision on the way the book was written. Initially, wasn't a fan of how out there trippy this book was. After a couple of rereads, I don't mind it at all. I think the idea was great, but parts of the execution fall flat.

 

Has anyone picked up the lost plot thread Raven Guard ship yet?

Edited June 21, 2017 by NKCougar

[b1soul]

Exactly b1soul. Especially considering that Corax himself has an in-depth explanation for why he does the entire stealth thing and that some of his Legion, notably the Mor Deythan of which Sharrowkyn is one, inherited some of his ability. They're not just "there", they're just yet another manifestation of warp-related psychic abilities. Some summon storms, others do Force Lightning, Raven Guard wraith-slip and use their Force powers to tell observers they've never seen them.

 

I mean, Sharrowkyn's abilities are founded right there in the Raven Guard's background. Even ForgeWorld covered it in those big, well-revered books that everybody and their mother get their badass characters from nowadays.

The Mor Deythan are the literal elite of Raven Guard stealth tactics, which they are known for even 10,000 years later when Mor Deythan aren't really around anymore (or at least not actively covered in the lore; I wouldn't even be surprised if somebody like Shrike had it in him, unknowingly). If you complain about one kind of elite doing things a Legion is known for, you might as well complain about all the rest doing the same.

. . .

 

I can see him being dull to many people, but I don't see him as overpowered or flawless at all. There's more to it than his kill count.

You are a man after my own heart lol

 

Sharrowkyn may be dull, but he's not a flawless archetype of everything good and awesome.

Edited June 22, 2017 by b1soul

[mc warhammer]

i think when people latch on to a simple idea or rule, they tend to apply it again and again with less and less context to almost any situation as long as it vaguely resembles the subject of their criticism. things get bent to fit that particular set of rules

 

it's like people get mary sue goggles or fridging goggles or daddy issue goggles 

 

i've done it on occasion when i'm drunk on the righteous criticism

[Loesh]

I do think it's somewhat erroneous to believe when Lucius dies it's to a more skilled opponent, recall that his first transformation happens when he's fighting with an unpowered blade and a leather tunic for kicks, or in In Wolfs Clothing where he's very well of his capabilities and uses death as a weapon, putting himself in a group of expendable troops to infiltrate a Space Wolf ship from the inside and slaughter the crew after summoning a collection of Emperor's Children onto the bridge. Sharrowkyn is actually anomaly in that it is, a relatively, fair fight that kills him and that kicks off his whole arc.

 

Heck look at what we know of Lucius the Faultless Blade at this point Lucius is bored, he's killed nearly everything, he's challenging Wynch Cults and Bjorn the Fell Handed just to feel something again. While most definitely not a well adjusted I tend to feel his insanity and idiocy is exaggerated by the fandom to some degree, where he can actually be clever, perceptive, and when he wants to actually try can down several times his weight in marines.

[HeritorA]

i think when people latch on to a simple idea or rule, they tend to apply it again and again with less and less context to almost any situation as long as it vaguely resembles the subject of their criticism. things get bent to fit that particular set of rules

 

it's like people get mary sue goggles or fridging goggles or daddy issue goggles 

 

i've done it on occasion when i'm drunk on the righteous criticism

 

Usually that could be said about all of us.

 

But guys - let's move Sharrowkyn, Sigi, Sevatar party tp another thread.

It is hard to read and irrelevant to the discussed book.

 

As for the book  > as b1soul and DarkChaplain andNKCougar said:

 

Sharrowkyn's abilities are indeed founded right in the Raven Guard's background. Even ForgeWorld  was abliged to cover that in their big and mighty books.

The Mor Deythan are the literal elite of Raven Guard stealth tactics, - it's not a surprise. Question is >  they are not around in the last 10,000 years - what happened to that caste inside the Legion. Will we ever new the answer?  And I do hope Sharrowkyn story would be finished in the next book, maybe 'Old Earth'?

 

  Same as Cougar I can't see any 'LOGIC' to kill Dio Promus' death. The VI Legionnaries in the 'Crimson King' novel are beyond stupid, naive and simply dragged from some information vacuum. Where were they all those years of Horus Heresy not to hear the obvious facts?

 

Again as Cougar said: 'then decided that listening to a daemon would be a good idea, proceed to confront promus, and when he says yes, he killed loyal Legionaries because it was his emperor-sworn duty - they kill him. The legion that understands duty more completely than any other had a problem with him doing his.' It's like McNeil lost any connection with reality of his previously 'good' imagination - an made that event just for the 'shocker' of it.

 

'Has anyone picked up the lost plot thread Raven Guard ship yet?'     - again it was probably planned  to show the COOL of the RG and Sharrowkyn 'arrival' later, but author then simply scrambled the idea and forgot about the ship, lol   

[SpAcEGhOsT095]

It sounds like Lucius has the same problem that One Punch Man has.

[Nineswords]

It sounds like Lucius has the same problem that One Punch Man has.

 

Clearly Lucius' routine is 100 pushups, 100 situps, 100 squats and a 10k run for 10k years. He's even bald.

[HeritorA]

 

It sounds like Lucius has the same problem that One Punch Man has.

 

Clearly Lucius' routine is 100 pushups, 100 situps, 100 squats and a 10k run for 10k years. He's even bald.

 

That's really well said. I think you beat us all - nobody can't sum Lucius better

[Rob P]

So ..

 

Lemuel ....

Are we supposed to get the references to who he becomes? Head of the withchunters?

 

Book of Magnus ...

Is Hathor Maat's fiddling the cause of the Rubric mess up?

 

And

The Orrery ... this dude not know there is already a library of all knowledge in the webway?

[NKCougar]

So ..

 

Lemuel ....

Are we supposed to get the references to who he becomes? Head of the withchunters?

 

Book of Magnus ...

Is Hathor Maat's fiddling the cause of the Rubric mess up?

 

And

The Orrery ... this dude not know there is already a library of all knowledge in the webway?

 

In order:

 

Lemuel - now Promeus - is one of the four founders of the Inquisition. Off the top of my head I only know one other, who was revealed in The Beast series.

 

Apparently, yes. I hate it and think it's a terrible way to change Ahriman's story, but that's what it looks like.

 

Probably not. The primarchs knew nearly nothing about the Webway, and on top of that, Magnus is shattered at the time and can barely function - he has divine dementia.

[hopkins]

that lemuel easter egg was so obtuse

i missed it until my friend pointed it out

even heritora missed it

so subtle

 

book of magnus fiddling is all part of #justasplanned 

 

arf

[Petitioner's City]

 

Book of Magnus ...

Is Hathor Maat's fiddling the cause of the Rubric mess up?

 

In order:

 

Apparently, yes. I hate it and think it's a terrible way to change Ahriman's story, but that's what it looks like.

I hope not - it is suggested or implied, but equally might be something else. Maybe it is what screws over the ritual at the end of Sorceror, maybe it is what allows another thing to happen, rather than the rubric - the thing is, there is no proof, and Graham is suggesting something, not stating it, which makes it only the first echo of a syllable caught on the wind, indistinct, intangible. We don't know what it really means, we only have a suggestion.

 

More so, the implication, however could be reversed or changed like daemon Fulgrim or Eidolon's death.

[NKCougar]

 

 

Book of Magnus ...

Is Hathor Maat's fiddling the cause of the Rubric mess up?

 

In order:

 

Apparently, yes. I hate it and think it's a terrible way to change Ahriman's story, but that's what it looks like.

I hope not - it is suggested or implied, but equally might be something else. Maybe it is what screws over the ritual at the end of Sorceror, maybe it is what allows another thing to happen, rather than the rubric - the thing is, there is no proof, and Graham is suggesting something, not stating it, which makes it only the first echo of a syllable caught on the wind, indistinct, intangible. We don't know what it really means, we only have a suggestion.

 

More so, the implication, however could be reversed or changed like daemon Fulgrim or Eidolon's death.

I'm hoping for a stupid wild twist to that.

 

him editing the actual rubric would be such a disappointing way to go. Maybe it turns out that Aforgomon wasn't actually Fateweaver, it was Cegorach doing his "clown protecting most dangerous knowledge in the galaxy" act and he changed the spell to open a portal to the black library (or close to it) into one that sends a terminal velocity pie at Ahriman's head once a day, every day. Just as long as it isn't the rubric, I can forgive pretty much anything.

 

[HeritorA]

that lemuel easter egg was so obtuse

i missed it until my friend pointed it out

even heritora missed it

so subtle

 

book of magnus fiddling is all part of #justasplanned 

 

arf

I missed it cause you know my opinion on the book and I physically suffered while reading it.

 

 

As for the Aforgomon being a Cegorach - splendid catch. Could be, could be.

[Petitioner's City]

 

 

 

Book of Magnus ...

Is Hathor Maat's fiddling the cause of the Rubric mess up?

 

In order:

 

Apparently, yes. I hate it and think it's a terrible way to change Ahriman's story, but that's what it looks like.

I hope not - it is suggested or implied, but equally might be something else. Maybe it is what screws over the ritual at the end of Sorceror, maybe it is what allows another thing to happen, rather than the rubric - the thing is, there is no proof, and Graham is suggesting something, not stating it, which makes it only the first echo of a syllable caught on the wind, indistinct, intangible. We don't know what it really means, we only have a suggestion.

 

More so, the implication, however could be reversed or changed like daemon Fulgrim or Eidolon's death.

I'm hoping for a stupid wild twist to that.

 

him editing the actual rubric would be such a disappointing way to go. Maybe it turns out that Aforgomon wasn't actually Fateweaver, it was Cegorach doing his "clown protecting most dangerous knowledge in the galaxy" act and he changed the spell to open a portal to the black library (or close to it) into one that sends a terminal velocity pie at Ahriman's head once a day, every day. Just as long as it isn't the rubric, I can forgive pretty much anything.

 

 

 

 

 

that lemuel easter egg was so obtuse

i missed it until my friend pointed it out

even heritora missed it

so subtle

 

book of magnus fiddling is all part of #justasplanned 

 

arf

I missed it cause you know my opinion on the book and I physically suffered while reading it.

 

 

As for the Aforgomon being a Cegorach - splendid catch. Could be, could be.

 

 

I didn't know much about Cegorach; but what would be the proof in the text for the daemon to be Cegorach?

[NKCougar]

 

 

 

 

 

Book of Magnus ...

Is Hathor Maat's fiddling the cause of the Rubric mess up?

In order:

 

Apparently, yes. I hate it and think it's a terrible way to change Ahriman's story, but that's what it looks like.

I hope not - it is suggested or implied, but equally might be something else. Maybe it is what screws over the ritual at the end of Sorceror, maybe it is what allows another thing to happen, rather than the rubric - the thing is, there is no proof, and Graham is suggesting something, not stating it, which makes it only the first echo of a syllable caught on the wind, indistinct, intangible. We don't know what it really means, we only have a suggestion.

 

More so, the implication, however could be reversed or changed like daemon Fulgrim or Eidolon's death.

I'm hoping for a stupid wild twist to that.

 

him editing the actual rubric would be such a disappointing way to go. Maybe it turns out that Aforgomon wasn't actually Fateweaver, it was Cegorach doing his "clown protecting most dangerous knowledge in the galaxy" act and he changed the spell to open a portal to the black library (or close to it) into one that sends a terminal velocity pie at Ahriman's head once a day, every day. Just as long as it isn't the rubric, I can forgive pretty much anything.

 

 

 

that lemuel easter egg was so obtuse

i missed it until my friend pointed it out

even heritora missed it

so subtle

 

book of magnus fiddling is all part of #justasplanned

 

arf

I missed it cause you know my opinion on the book and I physically suffered while reading it.

 

 

As for the Aforgomon being a Cegorach - splendid catch. Could be, could be.

I didn't know much about Cegorach; but what would be the proof in the text for the daemon to be Cegorach?

 

None at all, I made it up. Sounds like a better change than Ahriman being right about the rubric anyway though.

[HeritorA]

NKCougar

'Sounds like a better change than Ahriman being right about the rubric anyway though.' - I do not agree.  It's ruined all the drama of Ahriman seris and supporting cast.

 

As for the Aforgomon - it's actually what it is. It is not a Cegorach. It's Kairos Fateweaver who was bound and released by the joke of Tzeentch and idiocy of Magnus. That was throughoutly discussesd on the web and McNeil twitter.

[veterannoob]

Graham's interview. He'll respond to spoiler questions on his site with a post referring to this episode. I look fwd to seeing it!

 

http://traffic.libsyn.com/combatphase/Ep_201_Magnus_The_Crimson_King.mp3

 

Ep 201 Magnus The Crimson King

We talk news, hobby, games played, Heresy telethon and more. Then Graham McNeill comes on to discuss Magnus in his new Heresy novel Crimson King, plus his primarchs novel and other stories connected to the book.

 

 

 

interview @ 45 minutes in

 

@GrahamMcNeill

www.graham-mcneill.com

A Thousand Sons

Thief of Revelations

Lucius: The Eternal Blade

Primarchs - Magnus: Master of Prospero

The Crimson King

 

 

www.rogalporn.com to donate to MD & win a fully painted Knight Household or Warlord Titan!

[hopkins]

more spoilers and thoughts

 

http://graham-mcneill.com/#!/spoilerific-answers/

[HeritorA]

'GM: Unchanged is the only one of John’s trilogy I’ve not read yet. But the idea of the shards was long a part of The Crimson King (indeed, my book had been planned out long before Sorcerer and Unchanged were written, so blame my long gestation period for those books coming out first!'

 

- that's explained a lot.