HH Book 44: The Crimson King

[b1soul]

One has to keep in mind that somehow the SW have to shrink from a full legion to a chapter with no successors (other than the failed Wolf Brothers experiment)

 

...so I'm thinking maybe 20k SW after Prospero, Alaxxes, and Yarant, which I think is pretty generous since at Prospero alone the SW lose 25k.

 

As I recall, the cavalry were the DA, SW, and UM

Edited March 8, 2017 by b1soul

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

One has to keep in mind that somehow the SW have to shrink from a full legion to a chapter with no successors (other than the failed Wolf Brothers experiment)

 

...so I'm thinking maybe 20k SW after Prospero, Alaxxes, and Yarant, which I think is pretty generous since at Prospero alone the SW lose 25k.

 

As I recall, the cavalry were the DA, SW, and UM

Don't forget the Scouring. Russ and Guilliman led that and I doubt Russ let the Wolves miss those fights.

 

The Wolves eventually do split, giving their successor half, which numbered around 2.5k per Battle of the Fang

[Jareddm]

I'd prefer those kinds of losses to be taken during the Scouring.  Not because of lost battles, but because the legion simply won't stop long enough to recover.  A seven year long vengeance, with plenty of similar symbolism for them to the Rangdan Xenocide.  The last dregs of their foe, locked and hidden away in traitor outposts and minor conquests.  Given time, these would've just been forgotten by the Imperium.  But not from the Wolves.  To me, the Scouring means one thing to the Wolves.

Open Season.

[randian]

The last dregs of their foe, locked and hidden away in traitor outposts and minor conquests.  Given time, these would've just been forgotten by the Imperium. 

As I recall they were forgotten after the Scouring, and faded into myth, until the first Black Crusade hit.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I'd prefer those kinds of losses to be taken during the Scouring.  Not because of lost battles, but because the legion simply won't stop long enough to recover.  A seven year long vengeance, with plenty of similar symbolism for them to the Rangdan Xenocide.  The last dregs of their foe, locked and hidden away in traitor outposts and minor conquests.  Given time, these would've just been forgotten by the Imperium.  But not from the Wolves.  To me, the Scouring means one thing to the Wolves.

Open Season.

 

Frankly thats what I always thought occurred.

Some Legions took time to restructure into Chapters, rearm and recruit.

 

The Wolves would go the jugular. They would harry their faithless brothers into hell itself, taking any loss to see the traitors broken before them. Only when the last of the traitors fled into the Eye or the deep void did the remnants of the Wolves take stock of their now broken past recovery Legion.

[b1soul]

I'm estimating based on the numbers...

 

IIRC, the total SW legion is around 100k

 

At Prospero, 25k were lost (out of around 70k)

 

That means the SW total dropped to 75k

 

Then you have Alaxxes, where the AL arguably inflict even more damage than the TSon defenders did on Prospero...enough damage for Russ to hold a serious grudge against the Khan

 

...but let's be conservative and say only 20k SW die at Alaxxes

 

55k SW limp back to Terra and later head out to ambush Horus

 

The Wolf Cull happens...on Yarant, the SW skirt the edge of destruction. Let's be conservative and say less than half die at Yarant and around 30k escape Yarant with Corax's aid

 

With only 30k left...that's still a very big number to be whittled down, during the Scouring, to a few thousand

[Leif Bearclaw]

Something else to bear in mind in general here, new recruits. Every Legion was still recruiting during the years of the Heresy. Granted some would've had an easier timer of it than others (Thousand Sons in particular would probably struggle), and most Legions aren't going to be the running the cannon fodder conveyor belts that we've seen the WEs doing, but the starting numbers really shouldn't be the only guys in the Legions for the duration, regardless of loyalist/traitor allegiance. Especially as many Legion homeworlds were essentially Astartes factories anyway.That said, this does tie into something that bugs me, especially with Alaxxes. Why were the Wolves apparently moping around a random nebula for what, 2 years? Especially after Inferno establishes Fenris as making the Legion virtually self sufficient, why doesn't the Legion head back to base after Prospero, to re equip and take on new manpower, making good at least some of the losses suffered? Then they could run into the AL at Alaxxes as part of resuming offensive operations once the Heresy proper breaks out.

 

However, how did we end up taking SW and Legion numbers in a thread about a Magnus book?

[HeritorA]

I'm estimating based on the numbers...

 

IIRC, the total SW legion is around 100k

 

At Prospero, 25k were lost (out of around 70k)

 

That means the SW total dropped to 75k

 

Then you have Alaxxes, where the AL arguably inflict even more damage than the TSon defenders did on Prospero...enough damage for Russ to hold a serious grudge against the Khan

 

...but let's be conservative and say only 20k SW die at Alaxxes

 

55k SW limp back to Terra and later head out to ambush Horus

 

The Wolf Cull happens...on Yarant, the SW skirt the edge of destruction. Let's be conservative and say less than half die at Yarant and around 30k escape Yarant with Corax's aid

 

With only 30k left...that's still a very big number to be whittled down, during the Scouring, to a few thousand

FW in Inferno states that due to the losses and Great Crusade actions - SW Legion had 70-80k active SM before Prospero. Almost 30k of them wasn't at Prospero due to being elsewhere.

Same Inferno states that Prospero cost SW 25-30k Space Marines in losses.

So after Prospero SW fleet contain 25-30k SM.

At Alaxxes they lost - I talk with Wraight and Bligh up to 15k SM. So only 10k left.

But then they get to Terra another SW arrived from Great Crusade and new recruits  - up to 20k.

So Russ took 30k SW against Horus.

After debacle there and after Yarant - I do not think that more than 20k SW left at all (including new recruits)

 

Hope this helps

b1soul

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Inferno says Russ left Fenris with around 50,000 wolves (p24). He would then link up with three great companies (3rd, 9th and 11th, p24) bringing him to about 73,200 wolves. (p24)

There are about 25–30,000 wolves unable to make the meet up. They would then miss the Razing of Prospero.

 

Then comes Alaxxes and Yarant, which are followed by the Scouring which leaves The wolves at 5000 strong. They would then create their only second founding chapter, which got roughly half of the Legion. (Battle of the Fang)

Edited March 10, 2017 by Wolf Lord Kieran

[HeritorA]

Inferno says Russ left Fenris with around 50,000 wolves (p24). He would then link up with three great companies (3rd, 9th and 11th, p24) bringing him to about 73,200 wolves. (p24)

There are about 25–30,000 wolves unable to make the meet up. They would then miss the Razing of Prospero.

 

Then comes Alaxxes and Yarant, which are followed by the Scouring which leaves The wolves at 5000 strong. They would then create their only second founding chapter, which got roughly half of the Legion. (Battle of the Fang)

You can't count Scouring here - the time period is like up to 50 years. Scouring took hundred years.

After Yarant there was a recuperation period and then rush to Terra - which was bloody and took time - so you could count additional reinforcements to numbers and losses at the same time. Wolves never were at 5k strong during HH - the lowest number was from 10k to 15k.

Because (and it's me saying this) - Wolves in general are good in what they do, and they always were mentioned as a Legion, whose wounded came back from wounds to active ranks in record time

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Oh, I'm aware of that, I just felt like giving a complete answer.

 

I do wonder if Russ took the time to recuperate, as we see him not taking the time to do so in the lead up to Prospero. Inferno mentions much of the Wolves legion came from very active warzones and Russ did not give them the recoup time.

If he didn't before Prospero, I can see him forgoing that on the race to Terra

[DarkChaplain]

I don't see Russ as taking time off to replenish his ranks either. Heck, he barely took the time to do essential fleet repairs at Terra before heading back out to hunt for Horus and ending up at Yarant. He can't sit idle while there's a job to be done.

[HeritorA]

Oh, I'm aware of that, I just felt like giving a complete answer.

 

I do wonder if Russ took the time to recuperate, as we see him not taking the time to do so in the lead up to Prospero. Inferno mentions much of the Wolves legion came from very active warzones and Russ did not give them the recoup time.

If he didn't before Prospero, I can see him forgoing that on the race to Terra

Actually he probably did this time - cause previous mistakes should be accounted for. After all that's Wolves phrase: I stand corrected.. and yada yada

I don't see Russ as taking time off to replenish his ranks either. Heck, he barely took the time to do essential fleet repairs at Terra before heading back out to hunt for Horus and ending up at Yarant. He can't sit idle while there's a job to be done.

Plus you can't rush into actions being half dead yourself - it will end badly without results. And we all know that Wolves always measured the results

[b1soul]

I think the Wolves were probably 20k to 25k strong post-Yarant and right after the Heresy

 

The 10k estimate sounds like a low ball. 30k is a bit high.

[bluntblade]

Russ is also driven by guilt over both Magnus and missing Isstvan. We've seen him blame himself partially for Ferrus' death

[Augustus]

All of the Legions are probably "recruiting" like mad. This is the time where degradation of the Gene-Seed begins. The SW's homeworld, however, doesn't lend itself towards being capable of high speed recruitment. So it's likely to be insignificant. Dorn is probably churning out new marines which could help explain the current state of their gene-seed in 40k.

[DarkChaplain]

Didn't we get an explanation for the IF flaw in The Beast Arises?

 

Fists Exemplar got highly irradiated over generations on their homeworld, and then offered the bulk of new IFs when they reformed them.

 

It still doesn't explain how it is the case for every IF from then on, but at least it offers a bit of a start on it.

[HeritorA]

I think the Wolves were probably 20k to 25k strong post-Yarant and right after the Heresy

 

The 10k estimate sounds like a low ball. 30k is a bit high.

I did explain why it is so.

 

All of the Legions are probably "recruiting" like mad. This is the time where degradation of the Gene-Seed begins. The SW's homeworld, however, doesn't lend itself towards being capable of high speed recruitment. So it's likely to be insignificant. Dorn is probably churning out new marines which could help explain the current state of their gene-seed in 40k.

Exactly - the losses everyone took - they definitely run a speed up recruitment program. I wouldn't be surprised if right before the Siege of Terra GW and BL and FW will simply take another 40k of SM for each Legion right out of the hat. Cause then they did planned HH - they did not expect it to run soooooo long/profitable and with such losses

[Excessus]

This book is going to be awesome!!! 

[HeritorA]

This book is going to be awesome!!! 

Because?

[hopkins]

 

This book is going to be awesome!!! 

Because?

 

 

it's an opinion?

[HeritorA]

 

 

This book is going to be awesome!!! 

Because?

 

 

it's an opinion?

 

it's a question. I'm curious to know why Excessus

thinks it would be awesome. It's a book about 'razed' Legion, emo shattered Primarch and it would be like a bad Shakespearean play for 3 actors: Magnus, Ahriman and someone else.

[Taliesin]

Well he is not going to explain it now, is he? Whatever he's going to say, you're going to crap on it with ceaseless negativity.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Taliesin

[TRIBUN]

no more talk about Russ/the rout please...let's get back to the Topic.

[HeritorA]

Well he is not going to explain it now, is he? Whatever he's going to say, you're going to crap on it with ceaseless negativity.

There is a difference between negativity and bad writing which BL continuosly show with fillers, pointless storylines and LE