HH Book 44: The Crimson King

[ChildofFang]

Thank god we have people to tell us how we should appreciate books or we would all have to have our own opinions ;)

[helterskelter]

One would question if so much was bad, why even bother "contributing" to the hobby/board/pastime

[HeritorA]

One would question if so much was bad, why even bother "contributing" to the hobby/board/pastime

I do appreciate sarcasm, but for some of us that question goes beyond sarcasm or humor, cause we want to read 'good' book, not something that pretends to be one

[Typhoid_Tony]

One of my favourite black library series is the Ahriman novels by John French so I came to the Crimson King with prior investment in the characters. On the whole I really loved the exploration of the Thousand Sons and their relationship with the warp.

 

The progression of Ahriman and the seeds of his obsession with the rubric was really well done and the relationship between Amon and the increasingly erratic Magnus was brilliant. The book also goes some way to explain the motivations behind Magnus; his total obsession with the accumulation of knowledge blinds him even to the plight of his sons. The interactions between Ahriman and the 'oracle' were also really enjoyable with Tzeentch testing how far Ahriman would go to achieve his goals.

 

There were only a couple of negatives really. The depiction of the psychic battles between the Space Wolves and the Thousand sons on Kamiti Sona felt very off. I feel it would have been much more believable if the silent sisters were involved rather than the rune priest nullifying almost all of the psychic powers thrown at him. The fact that they were on the station and then not used was a bit bizarre. The second point was Lucius' voice in the audiobook. his accent was very strange and not what I associated with the Emperors Children.

 

On the whole I thought it was a great book and think it worth a read, especially if you have any prior investment in the Thousand Sons.

[HeritorA]

'rune priest nullifying almost all of the psychic powers thrown at him' - that was even beyond the comics range.

Rune priest nullifying sorcery of the HQ of a Legion? WHAT?

 

Also - time shenangians totally wrong with all that stuff and timeline theory.

[helterskelter]

 

 

One would question if so much was bad, why even bother "contributing" to the hobby/board/pastime

I do appreciate sarcasm, but for some of us that question goes beyond sarcasm or humor, cause we want to read 'good' book, not something that pretends to be one

You can barely give a balanced critique though, I avoid coming down here like the plague for seeing your name on every subject down the list for fear of what you've written. Would it be too much to request you attempt the :cuss sandwich approach at least once?

E.g. yes I personally didn't like the book for x reason, y reason, z reason, however I can see the parts people might enjoy because of A and B, but for me the whole book only rates so much. Doesn't take a lot to be a bit more constructive man. Please.

[HeritorA]

 

 

One would question if so much was bad, why even bother "contributing" to the hobby/board/pastime

I do appreciate sarcasm, but for some of us that question goes beyond sarcasm or humor, cause we want to read 'good' book, not something that pretends to be one

You can barely give a balanced critique though, I avoid coming down here like the plague for seeing your name on every subject down the list for fear of what you've written. Would it be too much to request you attempt the sandwich approach at least once?

E.g. yes I personally didn't like the book for x reason, y reason, z reason, however I can see the parts people might enjoy because of A and B, but for me the whole book only rates so much. Doesn't take a lot to be a bit more constructive man. Please.

 

'You can barely give a balanced critique though' - could you provide example of not balanced critique? No pun intended - I'm trying to figure out why do you think it's not a balanced critique?

Just curious - cause I read the book and I can confirm each of my points with 'facts' from it.

[helterskelter]

Heri- Balanced doesn't equate to points from a book to back you up, it involves finding some good from it as well, as opposed to trash this, garbage that, don't bother, here it is in a list of books I've rated from bad to worse, You can see it and this is why we engage in debate with you in a more aggressive fashion.

There's good stuff to take from every book, regardless of how much you dislike it, there's lore, there are parts of story that may not be everyone's cup of tea but there are parts people will like. And to be even more controversial, some people just outright enjoy reading/particular authors work.

[HeritorA]

Heri- Balanced doesn't equate to points from a book to back you up, it involves finding some good from it as well, as opposed to trash this, garbage that, don't bother, here it is in a list of books I've rated from bad to worse, You can see it and this is why we engage in debate with you in a more aggressive fashion.

There's good stuff to take from every book, regardless of how much you dislike it, there's lore, there are parts of story that may not be everyone's cup of tea but there are parts people will like. And to be even more controversial, some people just outright enjoy reading/particular authors work.

Thank you. Aboslutely direct, honest and neccessary explanation. As I said - no pun intended. I do agree that we all have our own opinion which could differs.

 

I'm trying to see it from your opinion nowadays - but almost with each book release it's worse and worse. And only sometimes some authors (mostly French and Wraight) nowadays make me happy with truly amazing books, after which you feel yourself a happy bunny.

[Mellow]

There are a few things to realise:

 

1) I personally don't like the way The Emperor had to get completely destroyed in order to soul-shot Horus. So by the logic of HeritorA I will just assume that because I don't like it the Novel that covers it will be rubbish.

 

2) HeritorA posts on every thread for a perverse sense of completeness. It may be some form of internet OCD but who knows.

 

3) Disagreeing with HeritorA on any thread will result in pages of back-and-forth posts which are never really on topic and just get in the way of other posters who just want to read other people's thoughts.

[HeritorA]

There are a few things to realise:

 

1) I personally don't like the way The Emperor had to get completely destroyed in order to soul-shot Horus. So by the logic of HeritorA I will just assume that because I don't like it the Novel that covers it will be rubbish.

 

2) HeritorA posts on every thread for a perverse sense of completeness. It may be some form of internet OCD but who knows.

 

3) Disagreeing with HeritorA on any thread will result in pages of back-and-forth posts which are never really on topic and just get in the way of other posters who just want to read other people's thoughts.

I saw my mistakes and will stand to correct them. Point 3 is a little bit harsh cause I do answer and help people from time to time or ask questions related to the thread,

[NKCougar]

So are opinions that y'all agree with the only ones people are allowed to post or something?

 

On topic:

 

after reading it again, I think more Ignis would have been nice. Very interesting character, and his obsession with mathematics made for some fun dialogue. Can anyone point me to anything else featuring/about him?

[mc warhammer]

So are opinions that y'all agree with the only ones people are allowed to post or something?

 

On topic:

 

after reading it again, I think more Ignis would have been nice. Very interesting character, and his obsession with mathematics made for some fun dialogue. Can anyone point me to anything else featuring/about him?

 

i don't think the issue is with disagreement, but the way it's expressed. to be fair, i give heritor a lot of rope, because i'm sure the disconnect comes form language barriers and cultural differences. heritor may not mean to come across the way he does, but (i assume) he's working with a second language. and even if he does intend exactly what he states, sometimes that's just the way people express themselves at home. as a person of dual heritage, i have to navigate completely different styles of interaction depending on which side of the family i'm hanging with.

 

and if it's just a matter of letting go and not overposting, there's a few of us guilty of not giving up the bone.

 

really, it's easy to see how strife between terrans and homeworld astartes within the same legion would occur.

 

back on topic though- crimson king- yay!

[1ncarnadine]

On topic:

 

after reading it again, I think more Ignis would have been nice. Very interesting character, and his obsession with mathematics made for some fun dialogue. Can anyone point me to anything else featuring/about him?

 

He's from John French's Ahriman trilogy, and there is definitely a lot more of him. He has a pet battle automata named Credence. It's good.

[HeritorA]

mc warhammer

You are right about language barriers and cultural differences and 'heritor may not mean to come across the way he does, but (i assume) he's working with a second language. and even if he does intend exactly what he states, sometimes that's just the way people' - I learn on the go and sometimes I forget that our views on the world differenciate due to the culture rootes.

 

As for the Crimson King  - well I expected another Thousand Sons and gor 'Vengeful spirit'.

Plus I don't think a lot of people are happy and could explain that

Space Wolves (and Rune Priest at that) believed a Daemon and killed 'honest and clean' Ultramarine Librarian

[Izlude]

BL finally shipped the book...excited. The only book I am fuzzy on is The TS since it has been years so will probably reread that one. I think I am uptodate with the others such as AE, Outcast Dead etc. In reading the non-spoiler reviews, it sounds like one of the issues was how Lucius felt shoe-horned in this book. I read one short about a duel between Lucius and Maat (I think it was him) which was interrupted by Ahriman. Is there another short story that established Lucius's role in this book?

[HeritorA]

BL finally shipped the book...excited. The only book I am fuzzy on is The TS since it has been years so will probably reread that one. I think I am uptodate with the others such as AE, Outcast Dead etc. In reading the non-spoiler reviews, it sounds like one of the issues was how Lucius felt shoe-horned in this book. I read one short about a duel between Lucius and Maat (I think it was him) which was interrupted by Ahriman. Is there another short story that established Lucius's role in this book?

It was a duel with Sanakht (the one from the Ahriman serie).

Lucius part was probably

to help Chaos revert Ahriman Rubric through his help provided to Maat

[veterannoob]

Taking listener questions for Graham interview Monday (19th June) evening re: Magnus HH (Primarchs book, Crimson King, all audios & ebooks in between). DM me or reply here.

[Withershadow]

Ask him why he hates continuity so much, and what was up with Outcast Dead.

[veterannoob]

Ask him why he hates continuity so much, and what was up with Outcast Dead.

I...I'm gonna need a bit more detail than that if you're seriously wanting me to ask that...  LOL

[Petitioner's City]

I'd be really curious if you ask several things - some of these are silly, some more about his writing processes. First off, thank you to him finishing the book, it's a fascinating, complex and flawed text, all of which makes it a worthy and pleasing addition to the line. 

 

So... 

 

In Graham's coda, he mentiones returning to the material after many years where other authors had worked on the heresy characters, or two series had sprung up post-heresy which substantially advanced ideas about Heresy-era Thousand Sons, namely French's Ahriman books and ADB's Khayon book. Why did he make the choices he made to include characters from the former - were these additions that came with the 'return', or had he included them in the first writing phase when they were also still new and unestablished characters in French's texts (esp. Tolbek and Ignis)? How did he view John's work with Amon, whom Graham gave substantial (and needed) development of in this book, influence his own work? And what does he think of Khayon et al., and of Inferno? Why no Khayon or Asher-Kai, or sense of the greater legion who might not have cared for the esoteric pursuit of shards?

 

The original pair of A THousand Sons and Prospero Burns - did he view these as working together? What does he appreciate in Dan's book, and what Dan did to both legions, compared to what he did in his own books about Wolves and Sons. PS love the Kasper cameo! 

 

Why did he choose to continue to focus on shards, when John's trilogy, or at least Unchanged, had so focused on the shards too. Was this something which happened after his initial drafting, and he choose to continue with it, or was it inspired by Unchanged to an extent? 

 

How does he find it being in America now - does he feel cut off from what happens at BL, GW & FW, as well as his fellow writers. 

 

Why does Bjarni kill Dio, one executioner killing another executioner? Surely the former would understand the latter. 

 

What kind of research or reading does he do for each project - what did he use when creating his heresy Sons, from history, other writings, etc.? 

 

Finally, is there anything he disagrees with in how the heresy or the Thousand Sons have been developed over the years? 

[1ncarnadine]

Why does Bjarni kill Dio, one executioner killing another executioner? Surely the former would understand the latter. 

 

This isn't just a response to you, PC. I think I'm about to address anyone who thought that was a weird moment with my views. I thought it was totally in character.

 

I'd still love to hear Graham's answer on this one, but I'm pretty sure it's because the nature of their executions is quite different. The Space Wolves felt justified in burning Prospero because of the Sons' use of witchery in defending it, and they were already under orders to censure the Sons for use of sorcery in direct disobedience of the Emperor (orders which were then changed to erasure, of course).

 

Dio is killing loyalists, who would otherwise have fought for the Emperor, for no other reason than keeping Malcador's project a secret. The Wolves don't abide that. See also The Emperor's Gift, where the Wolves won't let a bunch of human regiments who fought alongside them on Armageddon be purged by the Inquisition. The Space Wolves have a very particular and absolutist moral compass; they always do what they think is right, and always punish what they think is wrong. Despite being painted grey, they're not always so great at understanding moral grey areas.

 

But Dio is killing psykers! The Sons were psykers, right? Yeah, but the Space Wolves see a clear line between sorcerers/witches, as compared to rune priests, librarians, navigators or astropaths. It's a question of responsible use to them. And no, they don't often have the self-awareness to realize when they themselves are being irresponsible. The Wolves are kind of jerks and hypocrites, but not always, and/or not all of them.

 

Does that all track? 

 

 

Taking listener questions for Graham interview Monday (19th June) evening re: Magnus HH (Primarchs book, Crimson King, all audios & ebooks in between). DM me or reply here.

 

Awesome! 

 

1) Are we still yet to see Magnus's transition into a daemon prince, or is that basically what he is now? It's still hard to tell for me, but I get the impression that he hasn't quite made that leap yet.

 

2) If Magnus is a daemon now, am I right in thinking that the Thousand Sons at this point don't perceive him as such, yet?

 

3) Any thoughts on 8th edition, the Dark Imperium, and any inspiration to continue some of his 40k characters through it now that so much has changed?

Edited June 17, 2017 by LetsYouDown

[DarkChaplain]

He still wasn't quite "daemonic" up until after the Battle of the Fang iirc. No wings then yet. There also was a final shard still remaining just in the prologue of that.

[veterannoob]

thanks guys, I've noted these down.

[Petitioner's City]

 

Why does Bjarni kill Dio, one executioner killing another executioner? Surely the former would understand the latter. 

 

This isn't just a response to you, PC. I think I'm about to address anyone who thought that was a weird moment with my views. I thought it was totally in character.

 

I'd still love to hear Graham's answer on this one, but I'm pretty sure it's because the nature of their executions is quite different. The Space Wolves felt justified in burning Prospero because of the Sons' use of witchery in defending it, and they were already under orders to censure the Sons for use of sorcery in direct disobedience of the Emperor (orders which were then changed to erasure, of course).

 

Dio is killing loyalists, who would otherwise have fought for the Emperor, for no other reason than keeping Malcador's project a secret. The Wolves don't abide that. See also The Emperor's Gift, where the Wolves won't let a bunch of human regiments who fought alongside them on Armageddon be purged by the Inquisition. The Space Wolves have a very particular and absolutist moral compass; they always do what they think is right, and always punish what they think is wrong. Despite being painted grey, they're not always so great at understanding moral grey areas.

 

But Dio is killing psykers! The Sons were psykers, right? Yeah, but the Space Wolves see a clear line between sorcerers/witches, as compared to rune priests, librarians, navigators or astropaths. It's a question of responsible use to them. And no, they don't often have the self-awareness to realize when they themselves are being irresponsible. The Wolves are kind of jerks and hypocrites, but not always, and/or not all of them.

 

Does that all track? 

 

 

I can see your train of thought, although ultimately I agurre it comes to the 'jerks and hypocrites' thing. And I don't think 'modern' Wolves are good evidence for the darker, merciless and murder-make-focused 30K wolves. However, I guess the prologue of Prospero Burns, the murdermake of the village, does help explain Dio's death. But it still feels strange that Bjarni trusts a daemon, and that he doesn't accept Dio's duty just as he himself fulfilled awful duties. Unless he just likes killing, and once his moral system says 'enemy' they are utterly dead. It is also how he uses 'wyrd' as his excuse for whatever he does. It is not a good character trait, in that it becomes 'deus ex wyrd' for all his actions. 

 

Overall, I think a lot of the characters in The Crimson King were a bit ... James Cameron. They do things because it creates moments of (leaden-heavy) spectacle, fall out because it adds some (unnecessary) tension and make up (if they do) because the plot demands it. It's the dull thudding story telling of a narrative like Avatar. Tolbek's 'there will be consequences' at the end of the novel is one moment - overt rather than subtext.

 

More problematic, in Exile we are told Tolbek was one of the first to contribute to the Rubric. Tolbek's anger here seems to skip entirely the betrayal of the Rubric, he sees already Ahriman as someone dangerous. But for the 'plot', Tolbek will make up and be friends with Ahriman to take part in the Rubric (forgetting his worries) before again become embittered after it. 

Edited June 18, 2017 by Petitioner's City