WS confirmed as next after Angelus? Or mis-info?

[b1soul]

1 legion, no matter how elusice, cannot engage 4 legions and survive in the long-run

 

Wraight makes it amply clear

[bluntblade]

"It was not enough."

 

"I have given us survival. (Nothing more)"

 

"You would have fought on - and lost."

 

"They knew just how many to counter with to hurt us."

 

Not direct quotes, but Ilya, the Khan and Jochi do express those sentiments.

[Runefyre]

 

 

 

 

 

Those are fair points, and perhaps I'm just too cynical thanks to the less awesome path my favourite legion has been given (losing. all. the. dang. time.).

 

 

 

I don't get this. 

 

The space wolves have one of THE most crushing victories of the the Heresy, they destroy a Legion and wipe out that Legion's homeworld, suffering only 25% casualties. At the same time, their Primarch also gets literally break another Primarchs back.

 

And yet you complain about the wolves never winning.

 

What victories do the Thousand Sons get in the Heresy? Honestly, the space wolves losing every other heresy battle badly, makes it a bit more fair. So, why should the wolves get another storied victory before the Thousand sons get one?

 

I ain't asking for more storied victories, just that the Wolves get beat with more honour than they have. I still resent the Ex-Machina Dark Angels from Wolf King. There's no changing the events the Wolves took part in in the Heresy, but I shudder to think what Wolf Cull will do to them.....and it appears the Thousand Sons will be doing alot of it.

 

I have no doubt the Thousand Sons will get more (positive) screen-time. As they should.

 

 

 

[lokkorex]

Runefyre: i kinda agree, it would have been pretty cool if the wolves had managed to escape the nebulae themselves, using the ferocity and they are supposedly renowned for.

 

i mean how cool would it not have been if they had engaged the alphas in a deadly cat-and-mouse game inside the nebulae, evntually forcing both legions to break off? 

[Urriak Urruk]

 

You know, the best way to make White Scars more popular than they are is to give them rules putting them in the top-tier of Space Marine legions.

 

I mean, I wouldn't call Imperial Fists a very popular army in 40k, but in 30k they get more traction. They also have pretty good rules for a "vanilla" army.

 

So if they dropped a WS book that updates them to being a pretty beast army rules-wise, any WS specific units would sell much better.

Which legions are top tier now in your view?

 

 

Sorry for the late reply.

 

I'll be honest I'm just getting into HH now with BoP so I kind of assumed WS were weaker in comparison to some legions because they fall into that category of lacking a Primarch and legion-specific units (BA/DA/WS).

 

So I did a little bit of research, and if I was FW I would try to incentivize people buying WS by plugging these units/rules. (Source is 1d4chan so could be outdated/wrong)

 

1. Make them the best bikers. They tie with the Ravenwing in this, so give them so extra-special jet bike unit that makes it the best of what WS are known for.

 

2. Keshig Honour Guard kind of conflict with the whole point of WS, moving fast and quick strikes. But they could provide an interesting "hammer and anvil" effect, making a strike on anything the Keshig are already engaged with more effective (backstabbing). Very much Battle of Cannae stuff.

 

3. Stormseers. Obviously can't be as good as the Thousand Sons, but they should be pretty darn good. Literally should be yelling "lightning bolt! lightning bolt!" Shouldn't have a big range of attacks but focus on precision stuff.

 

The whole point of fighting WS should be to tie them down, don't let them move, and if you fail you die.

[b1soul]

Make them the best bikers. They tie with the Ravenwing in this, so give them so extra-special jet bike unit that makes it the best of what WS are known for.

I would make the WS elite biker unit the best of its kind...Ravenwing would be a close second.

 

After all, the WS are supposed to be the Imperium's premier mounted force and the DA have so much more going for them apart from just bikes.

 

Similarly, I'd make Stormseers strong battle-psykers but still somewhat inferior to TSon sorcerers (as you also suggest)

 

Keshig Honour Guard kind of conflict with the whole point of WS, moving fast and quick strikes. But they could provide an interesting "hammer and anvil" effect, making a strike on anything the Keshig are already engaged with more effective (backstabbing). Very much Battle of Cannae stuff.

Think it would be cool if FW reveals that Keshig customised terminator armour sacrifices some protection for greater speed/initiative

 

Stormseers. Obviously can't be as good as the Thousand Sons, but they should be pretty darn good. Literally should be yelling "lightning bolt! lightning bolt!"

 

LOL

[Memento Of Prospero]

How could they not be in the following book? They are the last legion at this point...

[bluntblade]

I'd give the Zadyin Arga a reduced risk of Warp side-effects. Test of Heaven and all that.

 

Special characters - Jubal for sure, and Yesugei if we go before the events of Dark Glass. Otherwise, Shiban Tachseer.

[b1soul]

How many first captains do we have rules for?

 

Other than...

Abaddon

Sigismund

Sevatar

[Slips]

How many first captains do we have rules for?

 

Other than...

Abaddon

Sigismund

Sevatar

Ahriman

Kor Phaeron

Typhon

Eidolon (Or Kaeseron if you really want to get technical)

Khârn (technically since hes Equerry to Angron)

[b1soul]

Yes...how could I forget Ahriman, Kor Phaeron, and Typhon. Forgetful me

 

I think Eidolon is the pre-eminent Lord Commander but the title of 1st Captain goes to Kaesoron. No idea who's more senior of the two...likely Eidolon.

 

Khârn is 8th Captain, so I wouldn't count him.

 

Anyway...Jubal is the WS equivalent of 1st Captain if I recall correctly, but there may be Noyan-Khans above him.

 

I think Jubal, Yesugei, and Shiban/Tachseer would be the most interesting special characters.

[Urriak Urruk]

Sadly I'm afraid that the WS may get the IH/Salamanders treatment. Meaning special characters get rules, but no models (not even a limited edition one).

 

Hope that isn't the case, but its more than likely.

[Ironwithout]

Sadly I'm afraid that the WS may get the IH/Salamanders treatment. Meaning special characters get rules, but no models (not even a limited edition one).

 

Hope that isn't the case, but its more than likely.

In truth I don't think that's the end of the world at the moment. With the plethora of models available we have plenty of conversion opportunities. As long as we have rules we should be good.

[1ncarnadine]

Sadly I'm afraid that the WS may get the IH/Salamanders treatment. Meaning special characters get rules, but no models (not even a limited edition one).

 

Hope that isn't the case, but its more than likely.

 

I talked to Tony Cottrell at the Weekender about the Character Series and how it seems to have really slowed down. Also asked for a Maloghurst model because it's probably the only thing keeping me from doing Sons of Horus.

 

But he said they plan on getting back to more regular Character Series releases eventually. There was a lot to do with Specialist Games pushes and all the stuff in Inferno (especially the Talons list). There was also a TON of response for a Meduson model at the '15 Weekender when they did a show of hands, and I'm guessing they get e-mails requesting him, so that would be a no-brainer for Character Series sales as long as the model is pretty nice.

 

Keep your fingers crossed. Your feedback to FW does matter on these things too. The more they hear requests, the more likely they'll do it.

[Urriak Urruk]

 

Sadly I'm afraid that the WS may get the IH/Salamanders treatment. Meaning special characters get rules, but no models (not even a limited edition one).

 

Hope that isn't the case, but its more than likely.

 

I talked to Tony Cottrell at the Weekender about the Character Series and how it seems to have really slowed down. Also asked for a Maloghurst model because it's probably the only thing keeping me from doing Sons of Horus.

 

But he said they plan on getting back to more regular Character Series releases eventually. There was a lot to do with Specialist Games pushes and all the stuff in Inferno (especially the Talons list). There was also a TON of response for a Meduson model at the '15 Weekender when they did a show of hands, and I'm guessing they get e-mails requesting him, so that would be a no-brainer for Character Series sales as long as the model is pretty nice.

 

Keep your fingers crossed. Your feedback to FW does matter on these things too. The more they hear requests, the more likely they'll do it.

 

 

I had no idea honestly about that requests thing. I shouldn't do that because I'd probably ask for a SW character (and we don't really deserve one beyond Geigor right now).

 

But Shadrak Meduson is an excellent choice, still surprised that hasn't happened yet. I bet people would use that even in 40k.

[Purge the Daemon]

 

 

 

 

Sadly I'm afraid that the WS may get the IH/Salamanders treatment. Meaning special characters get rules, but no models (not even a limited edition one).

 

Hope that isn't the case, but its more than likely.

I talked to Tony Cottrell at the Weekender about the Character Series and how it seems to have really slowed down. Also asked for a Maloghurst model because it's probably the only thing keeping me from doing Sons of Horus.

 

But he said they plan on getting back to more regular Character Series releases eventually. There was a lot to do with Specialist Games pushes and all the stuff in Inferno (especially the Talons list). There was also a TON of response for a Meduson model at the '15 Weekender when they did a show of hands, and I'm guessing they get e-mails requesting him, so that would be a no-brainer for Character Series sales as long as the model is pretty nice.

 

Keep your fingers crossed. Your feedback to FW does matter on these things too. The more they hear requests, the more likely they'll do it.

I had no idea honestly about that requests thing. I shouldn't do that because I'd probably ask for a SW character (and we don't really deserve one beyond Geigor right now).

 

But Shadrak Meduson is an excellent choice, still surprised that hasn't happened yet. I bet people would use that even in 40k.

I believe scoria won that vote and as of this past weekender he's apparently I the works so we should see some more character series other than primarchs soon.

[Indefragable]

Shadrak:

I never heard of Shadrak Meduson before, but working through Vengeful Spirit audiobook he is just too cool. There's something utterly badass about a "normal" Space Marine who dares to go after not just a Primarch, but THE Primarch.....multiple times. Has a sort of John McClane "just a fly in the ointment, just a monkey in the wrench" and "yippee kai-ey, mother -er" aspect to it....but Iron Hands style.

As for White Scars 30k rules...

Hidden Content

This is me spitballing:

• They should have the best bikers in the Imperium. No doubt. Ravenwing should be good, but different: hardier with unique weapons, but the base WS biker should be what all other bikers aspire to. 40k Ravenwing are better mostly because WS are shackled to Codex: SM, even with their supplement. 30k is the perfect opportunity to "fix" that. I think we can all agree that is fair and not fanboyism because that is the WS's "thing" after all.
• Rules/tactics/wargear that support a fast and slippery army that whittles the enemy down, but can be utterly devastating when they decide to actually commit to the fight...so long as they end it quickly. Combat endurance should be their downside. Hit & Run for the shooting phase or such.
• Stormseers: should be top 3 psykers in the game with unique powers that hamper, harass, and confound the enemy. Mix of Divination and Geokinesis-esque powers + things that reduce enemy BS by 1 or 2, things that reduce enemy movement range by 3", stuff like that. As others pointed out, things that mitigate Perils. What goes unnoticed is that if all psykers in the Imperium were trained the Chogoran way, there would never have been a Council of Nikea.
• Jaghatai Khan: can be upgraded to have (insert bad- monoglian name here), a space marine bike. Would definitely be cool to see a biker Primarch. I think he is going to be a contrast to his legion, rather than an exemplar. For example, whereas the Legion tactics focus on hit+run tactics, evasion, mobility, Khan is sort of the rock in the center of his own rapids, able to be surprisingly durable and killy in combat. A deceptive stat line that someone like Horus or Russ would drool at the thought of taking on, but special rules that more than make up for it.....rules that make him frustratingly resilient, able to parry enemy attacks, or getting free hits for each enemy hit or something like that.
• ...and the Keshig are the perfect compliment to Khan himself. White Scars terminators make you scratch your head a bit, but that's the point: they were reserved for the (inevitable) times when mobility would be hindered and the fight would be in a confined space. That's when the energy usually reserved for movement is instead entirely devoted to the attack. Khan and the keshig hold the center of the board, daring the enemy to come at them....especially since they are the only target the enemy can catch. But that is the trap Khan lays: while the enemy goes after the center, the rest of the Scars encircle and eviscerate their foes.

I think we will see Keshig as a special unit for WS, but I don't think there will be a glut of shiny new units. I know FW and BL are different, but I don't recall there being any special units in Scars or any of Wraight's tales beyond Khan's personal bodyguard. Maybe different brotherhoods that focus on different ways of war? Kinda sorta maybe like the I Legion's wings?

[Urriak Urruk]

I believe scoria won that vote and as of this past weekender he's apparently I the works so we should see some more character series other than primarchs soon.

Scoria makes a lot of sense request-wise. His rules are Primarch level but the Mechanicum players no doubt would prefer the real thing rather than count-as. The fact any Mechanicum character can take a Primarch (even Dark Mechanicum) just seems odd to me.

Shadrak:

I never heard of Shadrak Meduson before, but working through Vengeful Spirit audiobook he is just too cool. There's something utterly badass about a "normal" Space Marine who dares to go after not just a Primarch, but THE Primarch.....multiple times. Has a sort of John McClane "just a fly in the ointment, just a monkey in the wrench" and "yippee kai-ey, mother -er" aspect to it....but Iron Hands style.

As for White Scars 30k rules...

Hidden Content

This is me spitballing:

• They should have the best bikers in the Imperium. No doubt. Ravenwing should be good, but different: hardier with unique weapons, but the base WS biker should be what all other bikers aspire to. 40k Ravenwing are better mostly because WS are shackled to Codex: SM, even with their supplement. 30k is the perfect opportunity to "fix" that. I think we can all agree that is fair and not fanboyism because that is the WS's "thing" after all.
• Rules/tactics/wargear that support a fast and slippery army that whittles the enemy down, but can be utterly devastating when they decide to actually commit to the fight...so long as they end it quickly. Combat endurance should be their downside. Hit & Run for the shooting phase or such.
• Stormseers: should be top 3 psykers in the game with unique powers that hamper, harass, and confound the enemy. Mix of Divination and Geokinesis-esque powers + things that reduce enemy BS by 1 or 2, things that reduce enemy movement range by 3", stuff like that. As others pointed out, things that mitigate Perils. What goes unnoticed is that if all psykers in the Imperium were trained the Chogoran way, there would never have been a Council of Nikea.
• Jaghatai Khan: can be upgraded to have (insert bad- monoglian name here), a space marine bike. Would definitely be cool to see a biker Primarch. I think he is going to be a contrast to his legion, rather than an exemplar. For example, whereas the Legion tactics focus on hit+run tactics, evasion, mobility, Khan is sort of the rock in the center of his own rapids, able to be surprisingly durable and killy in combat. A deceptive stat line that someone like Horus or Russ would drool at the thought of taking on, but special rules that more than make up for it.....rules that make him frustratingly resilient, able to parry enemy attacks, or getting free hits for each enemy hit or something like that.
• ...and the Keshig are the perfect compliment to Khan himself. White Scars terminators make you scratch your head a bit, but that's the point: they were reserved for the (inevitable) times when mobility would be hindered and the fight would be in a confined space. That's when the energy usually reserved for movement is instead entirely devoted to the attack. Khan and the keshig hold the center of the board, daring the enemy to come at them....especially since they are the only target the enemy can catch. But that is the trap Khan lays: while the enemy goes after the center, the rest of the Scars encircle and eviscerate their foes.

I think we will see Keshig as a special unit for WS, but I don't think there will be a glut of shiny new units. I know FW and BL are different, but I don't recall there being any special units in Scars or any of Wraight's tales beyond Khan's personal bodyguard. Maybe different brotherhoods that focus on different ways of war? Kinda sorta maybe like the I Legion's wings?

That's a pretty good description of how I imagine WS Keshig and the Khan would work within the WS framework.

If WS get new models for the Khan, another character, Keshig Terminators, and a Stormseer, I think that puts them in better territory than some of the "finished" legions (I know none are truly finished, there's like a dozen books left).

[b1soul]

Some really good thoughts being shared

 

The Khan's rules will be interesting

 

I like the idea of low toughness but special rules allowing him to avoid attacks

 

The Keshig seem to be a conundrum...but really mo more so than something like devatators in a close combat-oriented legion

[Indefragable]

The Keshig seem to be a conundrum...but really mo more so than something like devatators in a close combat-oriented legion

I think the Keshig display the unappreciated brilliance of the Khan. The fact they are so much the opposite of what we (and enemies!) envision when we think White Scars is entirely the point.

 

Like in the confines of a ship where speed and maneuverability are wasted. The Khan knew this so he had a unit specifically designed for durability and "taking in on the chin."

 

In a more deliberate sense, I can see him deploying on foot with his keshig as the eye of the storm which the rest of the mounted elements swirled around.

 

From a historical perspective, the Mongols were terrifyingly good siege masters. Their mounted warfare abilities were legendary, even in their own day, so opponents would try to negate that by hiding behind fortresses. But that too played into the Mongols hands as they had many Chinese siege experts in their ranks (both willingly and unwillingly) who would then have a field day.

[Laughingman]

 

The Keshig seem to be a conundrum...but really mo more so than something like devatators in a close combat-oriented legion

I think the Keshig display the unappreciated brilliance of the Khan. The fact they are so much the opposite of what we (and enemies!) envision when we think White Scars is entirely the point.

 

Like in the confines of a ship where speed and maneuverability are wasted. The Khan knew this so he had a unit specifically designed for durability and "taking in on the chin."

 

In a more deliberate sense, I can see him deploying on foot with his keshig as the eye of the storm which the rest of the mounted elements swirled around.

 

From a historical perspective, the Mongols were terrifyingly good siege masters. Their mounted warfare abilities were legendary, even in their own day, so opponents would try to negate that by hiding behind fortresses. But that too played into the Mongols hands as they had many Chinese siege experts in their ranks (both willingly and unwillingly) who would then have a field day.

 

 

Maybe the White Scars had dedicated units of Terran born siege specialists that were incorporated into the legion structure after they were reunited with there primarch. I suspect that Jaghatai Khan had a particular hate for those who hid behind walls and dedicated time and resources to those who specialized in their destruction. 

[b1soul]

Those siege specialists could either be drawn from Terran populations or the non-steppe peoples of Chogoris

 

You'd think that before contact with the Imperium, when Jaghatai was conquering cities on Chogoris...he'd have acquired and employed auxiliary siege specialists.

 

The Keshig as the eye of the storm is also very flavourful

[bluntblade]

On the model front, the fact that everyone seems to just model his own Brotherhood means I expect to see lots of counts-as Jubals/Shibans/Namahis.

[b1soul]

I would really welcome a FW Jubal model...he was very cool in French's short Templar, a flamboyant contrast to Sigismund's utter seriousness/focus

 

A skilled board member has already customised a really cool Jubal model:

 

 

"Why do you do that, Templar? Are you afraid of dropping your sword?"

~Jubal Khan, Lord of Summer Lightning, The Deafening Silence Before the Thunder, The Swift Death that Comes with Laughter

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/911/hq9rAn.jpghttp://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/907/ViwXzD.jpg

Would still love to see FW's take (though it may never happen sadly)

[bluntblade]

We can but hope. But seeing as the Iron Hands lack a single Astartes character, while the EC, WE, DG and NL only have one each, I'm not holding out much hope right now.