Azorius Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Why the Emperor made Horus Warmaster instead of the Lion, Dorn, Guilliman, and hell, even Sanguinius? What merits of Horus outweigh those other candidates? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skalpynock Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 The ability to get even the "social pariahs" (Mortarion, Perturabo, Khan, Angron, Magnus) to work where any other would have had authority problems. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4672383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Horus was found first and spent more time with the emperor than any other. And his special gift is charisma. Everyone liked him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4672388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Horus was the longest serving Primarch, the most charismatic, the one with the greatest tally of victories. He was also by far the most dangerous. http://i.imgur.com/WjilRzK.png Book 4: Conquest, prologue Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4672403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azorius Posted March 4, 2017 Author Share Posted March 4, 2017 Horus was the longest serving Primarch, the most charismatic, the one with the greatest tally of victories. He was also by far the most dangerous. http://i.imgur.com/WjilRzK.png Book 4: Conquest, prologue So does Sanguinius. And 'the greatest tally of victories' could be contested by the Lion and the Guilliman. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4672413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 No, it couldn't - they (the Sons of Horus) had the greatest tally of victories. Period. The manner of those victories is an interesting debate, as the Sons were not empire builders like the Ultramarines; they came in, ripped out the throat of a planet and moved on rapidly. Their skills suited the needs of the age, in a different era/time they might not have been considered the best. But the Great Crusade was about raw conquest, and that's what they excelled at. Their reputation was assisted by the name of Horus himself, the Primarch with an 'unequalled record'. His talent for wielding the abilities of his brothers was second to none. Assume for a moment that Sanguinius was the equal of Horus in all of these things (which I don't think he was, especially in terms of his ability to command brothers like Angron); he hadn't been discovered as early, hadn't conquered as many worlds, hadn't been as close to the Emperor. He was also a symbol of divinity in an empire where there were no gods. Horus is the most obvious choice as a result. edit: brothers not brother Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4672420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azorius Posted March 4, 2017 Author Share Posted March 4, 2017 No, it couldn't - they (the Sons of Horus) had the greatest tally of victories. Period. The manner of those victories is an interesting debate, as the Sons were not empire builders like the Ultramarines; they came in, ripped out the throat of a planet and moved on rapidly. Their skills suited the needs of the age, in a different era/time they might not have been considered the best. But the Great Crusade was about raw conquest, and that's what they excelled at. Their reputation was assisted by the name of Horus himself, the Primarch with an 'unequalled record'. His talent for wielding the abilities of his brothers was second to none. Assume for a moment that Sanguinius was the equal of Horus in all of these things (which I don't think he was, especially in terms of his ability to command brothers like Angron); he hadn't been discovered as early, hadn't conquered as many worlds, hadn't been as close to the Emperor. He was also a symbol of divinity in an empire where there were no gods. Horus is the most obvious choice as a result. edit: brothers not brother Horus' tally of victories exceed that of Gulliman and Lion? Yes, Betrayal says Horus has an 'unequalled record', but other sources beg to differ. And Horus is far from the closest son of the Emperor - he is a mere tool, just same as every other Primarch. Otherwise, I largely agree with your opinion that Horus is the most pertinent candidate of Warmaster. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4672423 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 And yet many sources say that the Sons of Horus had the greatest record. 30k, and by extension 40k, is riven with inconsistencies; Horus' primacy, however, speaks for itself. Betrayal also provides an excellent explanation of why they would have been able to have taken the title of 'most victories,' one I find compelling. Indisputable is the fact that they and their Primarch had the greatest reputation. Horus not the closest son of the Emperor? He believed himself to be so, as did the other Primarchs. That was very important, and the Emperor, as per Master of Mankind, knew the value of giving his sons what they wanted: glory. We also have not seen what happens on the bridge of the Vengeful Spirit yet, and people perceived the Emperor in different ways, meaning that we don't know exactly, truthfully, what he thought of or felt about his 'sons,' only what others have 'heard' him say. I do like the idea they were just weapons to him, but either way they didn't know that, and many of the Primarchs were jealous of Horus' proximity to the Emperor. Certainly, he fought beside him alone for ~30 years (from memory), so a genuine relationship is actually quite plausible. We will find out when the Heresy reaches its zenith. If nothing else, the Emperor perhaps trusted Horus more than any other, having known him for so long and witnesses his skill and charisma first hand. Why Horus was chosen is not a mystery. It's kind of amusing that the (continual) debates over his primacy in the real world echo the kinds of discussions that astartes, remembrancers and soldiers would have had in-universe - each arguing for their favourite based on a source they've read or a personal preference. His primacy is, however, indisputable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4672428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dansupvi Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 marshals quote seems to spell it out pretty clearly for me he had all of the strengths of his brothers to greater or lesser degrees, and an unparalleled ability to command his brothers. add to that his proximity to the emperor and unequalled record, and hes the obvious choice Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4672429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corswain Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Tally of victories should go Horus, The Lion, Russ. From the old fluff to now, that doesn't seem to have changed. Guilliman may very well have achieved more compliances than any of them, but that's a different thing. That's the first time I've seen that quote from Conquest - I like it! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4672531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Russ is no longer a "high tally" primarch in current fluff. ...and I don't see how pre-Heresy Horus is the most dangerous "by far" It seems the in-universe historian is simply saying Horus is the most well-rounded, effective and charismatic commander among the primarchs...his use of "dangerous" isn't that clear-cut Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4672891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomMarine Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Horus and the LW/son where seen a glory hounds by the other legions willing to sacrifice other legions just so he could get the glory. ferrus and corax have both fought with Horus over his vainglorious attitude Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4672916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Sanguinius is the "as should have been" choice, hindsight always 20/20. If Sangy was chosen, there would have been no heresy. Choosing the best Primarch for sustaining the Crusade was the worst option for sustaining the Imperium and that's the irony of the kind of foresight Emperor had. #justasplanned, I guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4672939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Chaplain Kage Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Threads like this have a habit of turning nasty. Tread carefully and think before you post. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4672947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Russ is no longer a "high tally" primarch in current fluff. ...and I don't see how pre-Heresy Horus is the most dangerous "by far" It seems the in-universe historian is simply saying Horus is the most well-rounded, effective and charismatic commander among the primarchs...his use of "dangerous" isn't that clear-cut To put it a different way, what other Primarch could have even instigated the Heresy like Horus? None. All others had too many other personal conflicts and interests. Maybe the Lion? But I don't think he'd be too keen to share or get close to people. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4672949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 I think whoever the emperor found first would be warmaster (horus spent the most time with the big e, was very capable and was able to teach and school his brothers.I've always thought it would've been interesting if guilliman was found first. Would there even have been a Heresy? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4672986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 As far as "just another tool" goes, beware of taking at face value something the author told you not to take at face value. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4673044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Nothing Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4673077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 ...and I don't see how pre-Heresy Horus is the most dangerous "by far" It seems the in-universe historian is simply saying Horus is the most well-rounded, effective and charismatic commander among the primarchs...his use of "dangerous" isn't that clear-cut It is extremely clear cut. The historian is saying that Horus is the most dangerous precisely because of the combination of these aforementioned factors. The danger here is the danger posed when turned upon the Imperium he helped create. I don't think it's unfair to say he's the most dangerous 'by far,' as he's the only one that could have pulled this off without going into conjecture over other potential choices, thus why he was chosen. That isn't even taking into account the fact that he was Warmaster and as a result had access to far more information and far more opportunity to manipulate the situation more to his liking, e.g. Prospero, Thramas, Signus, as the blurb regarding his 'gaze' indicates. As I've said before, there are only degrees of difference between Primarchs, not gulfs. It's all relative to the situation here, and 'by far' isn't a 'my Primarch is better than yours' statement. Horus was by far the most dangerous because of a combination of factors relating to his leadership, and his position as Warmaster, not because he'd win every bout of fisticuffs. But he was the only one who would have been able to set the galaxy ablaze the way he did. e: spelling Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4673147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 It is extremely clear cut. The historian is saying that Horus is the most dangerous precisely because of the combination of these aforementioned factors. You're entitled to that opinion In your own mind, you could certainly add "because" between "most dangerous" and "In him were alloyed", just like you could add a "by far" before "most dangerous" It's not actually in the text but it's not unreasonable for you to do so Accepting the above, I would argue it's not clearly explained how having elements of his brothers and great charisma make him the most "dangerous". The word "dangerous" in this context seems to function as a mere substitute for "most pursuasive commander all the other primarchs would be willing to follow". It seems relative to the other primarchs, Horus would have the highest Leadership and versatile abilities and that's what "most dangerous" likely refers to...i.e. under Horus' leadership, the Great Crusade would be the most effective Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4673179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Semantics. The quote from Conquest lays out these points about the character of Horus: In him were arrayed the strengths of his brothers to a greater or lesser extent His ability to forge others to his purpose is a strength of his own, ergo, no other Primarch was able to lead his brothers in the way he was But more than this, it then draws our attention to his seal, the eye, and why it is his symbol. It seems relative to the other primarchs, Horus would have the highest Leadership and versatile abilities and that's what "most dangerous" likely refers to...i.e. under Horus' leadership, the Great Crusade would be the most effective Not only that, as said above, the passage on the 'eye' being his seal is of importance. There is an important connection between this and his post as Warmaster. The historian in this case is drawing attention to his ability to see weakness in the Imperium. But yes, his ability to persuade and bring others to his cause was an extremely important part of why he was the most dangerous, regardless of whether you want to frame it in such strong terms or not. At the end of the day, he was the only Primarch that would have been able to bring down the Imperium. To me, that makes him the most dangerous. You are entitled to your opinion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4673185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 I think Horus always was the right candidate. Not only was he an accomplished general who learned and trained alongside the Emperor for a great deal of time, but he was a silver tongued politician who could mediate the titanic egos of his brothers. I think it was mentioned in one book that Sanguinius was too "Ethereal" to be the right candidate. The Lion inspired no love or loyalty and Guilliman lacked the sheer charisma of Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4673252 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 I think Horus always was the right candidate. Not only was he an accomplished general who learned and trained alongside the Emperor for a great deal of time, but he was a silver tongued politician who could mediate the titanic egos of his brothers. I think it was mentioned in one book that Sanguinius was too "Ethereal" to be the right candidate. The Lion inspired no love or loyalty and Guilliman lacked the sheer charisma of Horus. 1000%. It was Horus's political ability that made him the Warmaster. No other Primarch had that. None. You can argue, but Guilliman was too organized, Russ too personal, Dorn and Ferrus too uncompromising, Fulgrim too arrogant, the Lion too impersonal, and Magnus too ostracized. The rest don't need mentioning save Sanguinius. A lot can be said about Sanguinius, but I think his involvement in the early Librarius project and his wings would have made him a very strange or even intolerable candidate to many other Primarchs who were against that (Mortarion, Angron, Ferrus). Horus had the ability to unify the armed forces of the Imperium. That's what made him the perfect candidate, both for the Emperor's purposes, and for Chaos. It's what allowed him to sway so many to his side at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4673282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Horus, like me, has a 100% speech rating and level 10 charisma ;) he passes all his speech checks with his team that travels the galaxy like Angron the Krogan, Magnus the Taurian, and... Oh wait wrong series. Even being the big fanboy I am for the Lion, I have to admit that though Horus make equal his brothers in some areas, he surpasses them in others, which make him ideal. Sure the head of the department of ed is a smart person, and so is the Secretary of State, but you need someone at the top to direct their strengths. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4673283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Accepting the above, I would argue it's not clearly explained how having elements of his brothers and great charisma make him the most "dangerous". You are looking for faults where there are none. It doesn't need to be explained plainly because It's simply logic and knowledge of true strength. Wars are not won by strength of arms. You don't have to worry about the man who's blade you can see clear as day in the open. You have to worry about the man who's many blades can come at anytime from your blindside, as he walks towards you with open arms. In loyalty, name any other primarch who could do the statecraft, bind his brothers to his will, and understand the gravitas of the project of the Emperor and strive to bring it to fruition. In Treachery, name any other primarch who could have cohersed the Mechanicum, turned half the legions to his cause, and understand how deeply corruptive the powers of Chaos were and gain his own mastery of the warp. That is the power Horus and no other wields. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/331595-horus-the-warmaster/#findComment-4673288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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