Horus the Warmaster

[Indefragable]

The quote from Conquest is pretty straightforward to me.

 

But even if I hadn't read that, I would have to say that Horus was the clear choice for Warmaster (there's a few other threads on here going into good detail, including the "who other than Horus?" one...I forget where exactly on these forums it is.

 

A couple reasons to me why Horus is made Warmaster:

 

1. He spent the most time with the Emperor of all the Primarchs. I think this can't really be overrated: he got to experience the Emperor's methods, arguments, conflict resolution (of both the nice and not-so-nice varieties), way of balancing the checkbook and what to set the thermostat at. Likewise, the Emperor would only come to rely on him more and more as a result.

 

2. The Emperor had not originally planned for him to be "first among equals." Horus had to earn it. He was not meant to be Warmaster. This is far more subjective and contentious, but to me, the fact that he is XVI gave him a chip on his shoulder that led him to strive that much harder. Yes his disproportional amount of time alongside Big Daddy E is important, but beyond that Horus had something to prove.

 

3. Cthonia: I know only basic details of his "birth" world, but it is clear that the worlds each Primarch got spirited off to had dramatic effect on them. [To my understanding] Cthonia was a former mining world overrun by gangs. I think the "gangland" aspect is important as well. Think of every stereotypical gang leader/crimeboss ever: they survive and excel by always watching their back and making brutal examples of those who cross them. Those gang-war tactics also play into Horus' "go for the throat" tactics: the best way to to cower a rival gang is to stride right into the their holdout and off their leader right in front of everyone. The brazenness is as effective as the deed itself.

So not only did the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus have more victories than anyone else because of the length of time Horus was around, but I imagine Horus would make sure that their record was never surpassed.

 

4. Bringing out the "best" in those around him. By "best" I mean keeping people focused and empowered to do what they do best. He saw each of his brothers for who they were....and how to get the most out of them. Even Angron and Curze, "damaged" brothers that others balked at, Horus instead found a way to make use of them towards the bigger end goal.

So often we see primarchs bickering or distracted by each other when together.  As depthcharge13 points out, he knew when to take the lead and when to step back and let others do their thing. Knowing when to be hands-off is one of the hardest parts of leadership. This has a self-sustaining effect as well, as the more successful you become at orchestrating things, the more willingly and confidently people will follow your ideas.

In contrast, I think of the scene in Fulgrim where Ferrus Manus has Vulkan and Corax on his flagship to plan for Isstvaan and basically is like "I don't care about your ideas, this is what we're going to do!"

[Azorius]

I have always wondered:

 

Horus and his Legion never participated in Rangdan Xenocides like Dark Angels and Space Wolves - in fact, Luna Wolves is one of few Legions who did not suffer at hands of the Rangdan. 

 

Nor he exterminated Enslaver outbreaks like Blood Angels and Space Wolves. 

 

If Horus and his Legion avoided to test their mettle and prowess against the hardest enemies of mankind universe has to offer like other prominent Legions, then how they could 'prove' their adequacy in the Emperor's eyes? 

[Azorius]

 

I think Horus always was the right candidate.

Not only was he an accomplished general who learned and trained alongside the Emperor for a great deal of time, but he was a silver tongued politician who could mediate the titanic egos of his brothers.

 

I think it was mentioned in one book that Sanguinius was too "Ethereal" to be the right candidate. The Lion inspired no love or loyalty and Guilliman lacked the sheer charisma of Horus.

 

1000%. It was Horus's political ability that made him the Warmaster. No other Primarch had that. None.

 

You can argue, but Guilliman was too organized, Russ too personal, Dorn and Ferrus too uncompromising, Fulgrim too arrogant, the Lion too impersonal, and Magnus too ostracized. The rest don't need mentioning save Sanguinius. A lot can be said about Sanguinius, but I think his involvement in the early Librarius project and his wings would have made him a very strange or even intolerable candidate to many other Primarchs who were against that (Mortarion, Angron, Ferrus).

 

Horus had the ability to unify the armed forces of the Imperium. That's what made him the perfect candidate, both for the Emperor's purposes, and for Chaos. It's what allowed him to sway so many to his side at all.

 

 

If Sanguiniu's wing is manufactured aspect by the Emperor, then he elucidate origin of wings to the other Primarchs. And I doubt brother Primarchs will resist Sang's authority due to his 'mutation'. After all, majority of Primarchs are abhuman/mutants and AFAIK, neither Angron nor Mortarion hate or abhor Sanguinius. In contrast, Sang is one of few Primarchs Angron did not dislike.

 

As for his involvement of early Librarius project...that is a little complicated but only Mortarion, Angron, and Russ(although Corax also hated 'irrational sorcery') openly deplored and opposed the project and even then their primary target was Magnus, not other prominent proponents - such as Curze, Fulgrim, and Sanguinius. 

[bluntblade]

I distinctly remember Angron's disdain for the "fey mutant". Mortarion and Sanguinius have a mutual, if muted, hostility because of the Librarius (only a small mention in Scars, but it's there, and Sanguinius actually brings it up himself).

[Azorius]

I distinctly remember Angron's disdain for the "fey mutant". Mortarion and Sanguinius have a mutual, if muted, hostility because of the Librarius (only a small mention in Scars, but it's there, and Sanguinius actually brings it up himself).

Oh really? Why Angron hates Sanguinius? 

[bluntblade]

AD-B didn't give much detail, but aside from the "fey mutant" thing, Sanguinius was a psyker, who helped build the Librarius Angron was so keen to see wither and die.

[Azorius]

AD-B didn't give much detail, but aside from the "fey mutant" thing, Sanguinius was a psyker, who helped build the Librarius Angron was so keen to see wither and die.

Hmm...it seems their acrimony against Sang is sprung from Librarius project, while Horus firmly maintained neutrality...interesting. 

[bluntblade]

Tacit support. You have to keep in mind that Mortarion viewed the continued use of psyker a within the Imperium as a total deal-breaker, and Sanguinius as a hypocrite for openly supporting them.

[Jackalwolf]

Horus was the best, simply put, for acumen, history of victories and his personal charisma. Only Sanguinius or Guilliman could have worked but Sanguinius was too riddled with doubts and Guilliman a bit of an isolationist and too young in the discovery order to have he respect of all his brothers.

[Azorius]

Horus and his Luna Wolves had not participated Rangdan Xenocides at all. So how Horus and his Legion could prove their worth in the Emperor's eye, if they avoided to take part in the greatest fight ever and baptize in their own blood, then how they demonstrate their suitability to lead the mightiest warriors in the Galaxy as Warmaster and Warmaster's owns? 

[Antaonix]

Because unlike SW or DA, Horus and later legions got fame and honour from 'winning war'

 

While every early crusade legions like SW and DA suffering so many casualties and doing dirty works,SoH doing the bright side of great crusade and bring good news to imperium.

 

True power of Horus is some kind of Gang style charisma and political thingy. He wouldn't do anything that harm his fame, and make others do dirty work instead.

[bluntblade]

Presumably Ullanor and other campaigns rivalled or exceeded the scale of Rangdan. I'm wary of considering it the biggest fight ever unless the fluff says so outright.

[Azorius]

Presumably Ullanor and other campaigns rivalled or exceeded the scale of Rangdan. I'm wary of considering it the biggest fight ever unless the fluff says so outright.

Nope. Current fluffs are outright stating Rangdan definitely overshadows Ullanor and every other major campaigns combined. 

 

"Imperium facing waves of attack from the galactic east and north, suffering losses that would not be exceeded until the dark days of the Heresy, the wars of the Rangdan Xenocides were the most terrible of any yet fought."

[Iron Lord]

AD-B didn't give much detail, but aside from the "fey mutant" thing, Sanguinius was a psyker, who helped build the Librarius Angron was so keen to see wither and die.

Oddly, Angron had no problem using Librarians - even after the Conclave and their ban. However, by using the Butchers Nails on so many, and then removing them, he ended up killing most of his Librarians, with only a few left by the time of Betrayal.

[Azorius]

Because unlike SW or DA, Horus and later legions got fame and honour from 'winning war'

 

While every early crusade legions like SW and DA suffering so many casualties and doing dirty works,SoH doing the bright side of great crusade and bring good news to imperium.

 

True power of Horus is some kind of Gang style charisma and political thingy. He wouldn't do anything that harm his fame, and make others do dirty work instead.

Horus could deceive Imperium war machine, certainly. He might be able to deceive some of other Legions and their Primarchs, even.

 

But he could not deceive the Emperor. After all, it is the Emperor who ordered SW and DA to clean up Rangdan and bio-purge each and every afflicted sector. It is the Emperor who ordered SW and BA to eradicate Enslaver outbreaks. 

 

Emperor KNOWS who do the real work and who steals all glories in expense of truly deserved Legions. And he is nothing if not clinical, objective and impartial in his decision making. 

[bluntblade]

Stealing glories, though? FW really ought to work on what Horus was actually doing at this point, but it jars grotesquely with everything else about him that he'd avoid hard fights and simply take the prestigious ones.

[Azorius]

Stealing glories, though? FW really ought to work on what Horus was actually doing at this point, but it jars grotesquely with everything else about him that he'd avoid hard fights and simply take the prestigious ones.

Corax, Raven Guard and Legio Atarus beg to differ. They demand justice. 

[Fire Golem]

 

Because unlike SW or DA, Horus and later legions got fame and honour from 'winning war'

While every early crusade legions like SW and DA suffering so many casualties and doing dirty works,SoH doing the bright side of great crusade and bring good news to imperium.

True power of Horus is some kind of Gang style charisma and political thingy. He wouldn't do anything that harm his fame, and make others do dirty work instead.

 

Horus could deceive Imperium war machine, certainly. He might be able to deceive some of other Legions and their Primarchs, even.

 

But he could not deceive the Emperor. After all, it is the Emperor who ordered SW and DA to clean up Rangdan and bio-purge each and every afflicted sector. It is the Emperor who ordered SW and BA to eradicate Enslaver outbreaks. 

 

Emperor KNOWS who do the real work and who steals all glories in expense of truly deserved Legions. And he is nothing if not clinical, objective and impartial in his decision making.

Lots of factors we don't know about the Rangdan Xenocides, the Dark Angels and Space Wolves might have simply been chosen because they were nearby for example. The Sons of Horus not fighting in the xenocides means nothing. There were plenty of difficult, brutal fights in the great Crusade for the Sons to have proven themselves in. The Emperor wouldn't have made Horus Warmaster if all Horus did was steal glory from other legions. Part of what made Horus the right candidate was circumstance (being found first etc) but most of it was earned.

[Calas Typhon]

 

AD-B didn't give much detail, but aside from the "fey mutant" thing, Sanguinius was a psyker, who helped build the Librarius Angron was so keen to see wither and die.

Oddly, Angron had no problem using Librarians - even after the Conclave and their ban. However, by using the Butchers Nails on so many, and then removing them, he ended up killing most of his Librarians, with only a few left by the time of Betrayal.

 

Its not really that he had no problem using them as I gather, its that he did not actually care for/acknowledge them, and that goes for the edict too. I mean the only real interaction we see is when he nods his thanks to Esca after the Librarians save his life. And whilst they were saving his life, he shows what he thinks about them. 

 

Lets not forget the mention that his Legion would be cleaner when the last of them were wiped out. Which does me wonders when he could have done exactly that on Isstvan III.

 

I think that Angron disliked Sanguinius for the same reasons he disliked most of the other Primarchs: they were either hypocrites, pompous, self righteous or a mess of inconsistencies. In the case of Sanguinius and the original quote, he thought him Fey, which makes perfect sense and aligns to his distrust of the unnatural.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Presumably Ullanor and other campaigns rivalled or exceeded the scale of Rangdan. I'm wary of considering it the biggest fight ever unless the fluff says so outright.

Nope. Current fluffs are outright stating Rangdan definitely overshadows Ullanor and every other major campaigns combined. 

 

"Imperium facing waves of attack from the galactic east and north, suffering losses that would not be exceeded until the dark days of the Heresy, the wars of the Rangdan Xenocides were the most terrible of any yet fought."

 

Only regarding Imperial losses. It's still conceivable that the likes of Ullanor/Gorro campaigns or whatever were comparable sized engagements, only that the Imperium took fewer casualties in their execution.

 

As for Horus, hasn't one of the FW book placed him leading the southern arm of the Great Crusade at this point? So he was literally on the other side of the Imperium when the Xenocides went down. So it doesn't seem fair to accuse him of stealing glories, picking fights etc., just because he was somewhere else when the Rangdan showed up. Besides, the Emperor was still in command at this point (and was directly involved in the Xenocides), if he thought that it was worth calling the Luna Wolves in from across the Imperium, he would have done so.

[Azorius]

 

 

Presumably Ullanor and other campaigns rivalled or exceeded the scale of Rangdan. I'm wary of considering it the biggest fight ever unless the fluff says so outright.

Nope. Current fluffs are outright stating Rangdan definitely overshadows Ullanor and every other major campaigns combined. 

 

"Imperium facing waves of attack from the galactic east and north, suffering losses that would not be exceeded until the dark days of the Heresy, the wars of the Rangdan Xenocides were the most terrible of any yet fought."

 

Only regarding Imperial losses. It's still conceivable that the likes of Ullanor/Gorro campaigns or whatever were comparable sized engagements, only that the Imperium took fewer casualties in their execution.

 

As for Horus, hasn't one of the FW book placed him leading the southern arm of the Great Crusade at this point? So he was literally on the other side of the Imperium when the Xenocides went down. So it doesn't seem fair to accuse him of stealing glories, picking fights etc., just because he was somewhere else when the Rangdan showed up. Besides, the Emperor was still in command at this point (and was directly involved in the Xenocides), if he thought that it was worth calling the Luna Wolves in from across the Imperium, he would have done so.

 

Horus was leading southern arms of the Great Crusade during 840s, not 860s.

 

Besides, during the Xenocides, Horus was 'occupied' in Galactic West. So we could deduct Horus already finished his Crusade duty before onset of the Rangdan.

 

And it seems Rangdan Xenocides occurred across entire Galactic East and North. I seriously doubt whether Ullanor/Gorro Crusade could boast comparable size or scope. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Horus was leading southern arms of the Great Crusade during 840s, not 860s.

 

Besides, during the Xenocides, Horus was 'occupied' in Galactic West. So we could deduct Horus already finished his Crusade duty before onset of the Rangdan.

 

And it seems Rangdan Xenocides occurred across entire Galactic East and North. I seriously doubt whether Ullanor/Gorro Crusade could boast comparable size or scope. 

 

Oh yes, my bad. But the point remains, south or west. Horus was occupied with other wars, on the other side of the Imperium, and wasn't in overall command of the Crusade at that point, so it wasn't really his call. So using his absence from the Rangdan Wars to claim he wasn't 'worthy' of being Warmaster isn't really a valid criticism.

[Azorius]

 

 

Horus was leading southern arms of the Great Crusade during 840s, not 860s.

 

Besides, during the Xenocides, Horus was 'occupied' in Galactic West. So we could deduct Horus already finished his Crusade duty before onset of the Rangdan.

 

And it seems Rangdan Xenocides occurred across entire Galactic East and North. I seriously doubt whether Ullanor/Gorro Crusade could boast comparable size or scope. 

 

Oh yes, my bad. But the point remains, south or west. Horus was occupied with other wars, on the other side of the Imperium, and wasn't in overall command of the Crusade at that point, so it wasn't really his call. So using his absence from the Rangdan Wars to claim he wasn't 'worthy' of being Warmaster isn't really a valid criticism.

 

Conversely, since he is already discharged from Crusade duty, he could run to bolster beleaguered Imperial forces if he really desire so. And 'occupied', in other words, 'busy', reeks bad excuse to me - the same word could readily be used to avoid responsibility and rationalize his absence in crucial, focal point of history. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Conversely, since he is already discharged from Crusade duty, he could run to bolster beleaguered Imperial forces if he really desire so. And 'occupied', in other words, 'busy', reeks bad excuse to me - the same word could readily be used to avoid responsibility and rationalize his absence in crucial, focal point of history. 

 

Where are you getting this 'discharged from Crusade duty' idea from? He was fighting on the other side of the Imperium, that's the important bit, there's no in universe implication that this was anything other than his duty, especially given the sparse amount of fluff we have about this period. The rest of the Imperium would still need defending/expanding, even if the North-east area was in trouble. For all we know the Emperor (who was in overall command, remember, not Horus) may have even ordered Horus to remain on the Western frontier, and keep that border under control. Again, there's no actual evidence that the absence of Horus and the XVI from the Rangdan wars was in any way suspicious, or renders the Primarch and Legion 'unworthy'.

[Memento Of Prospero]

@Azorious

 

Most primarchs felt a deep shaming in being "reinforced" or helped. It was seen as a sign of weakness for some, failure for others.

 

And to be reinforced by the favoured son must of been the worst possible outcome.

 

I am not sure how much of the series you have read, but this is a recurring theme in primarch discussions and actions.