How awesome is the Angel?

[Rafen IX]

Yup, Horus wouldn't have feared him more than any other if he was just a great fighter.

[Beauceron]

I've read 95% of the HH series and can't think of a single quote to verify that. However, please feel free to reference the relevant books and pages and I'll be happy to admit my error.

 

Sanguinius is a highly respected primarch and must certainly be considered as one of the most influential / powerful.

 

He was a considered choice for warmaster because of his ability to unite and work with a divided and dysfunctional group. He was beloved by the majority within the imperium because he was inspirational and likeable. Of all the primarchs, he and Horus are most like the Emperor in that regard which was why they were the only two realistic choices.

 

Quite simply, a great primarch or great leader is not the same thing as a great general although of course the concepts are not mutually exclusive.

[Rafen IX]

I don't have a direct quote other than implication.

But I would put forward as evidence the scene in Fear to Tread where Horus and Sanguinius plan the strategy of war against the Nephilim. Horus (unarguably top 3 best generals) relinquishes his plan in favour of the Angels. He viewed him as an equal in that regard I would propose.

[HeritorA]

I've read 95% of the HH series and can't think of a single quote to verify that. However, please feel free to reference the relevant books and pages and I'll be happy to admit my error.

 

Sanguinius is a highly respected primarch and must certainly be considered as one of the most influential / powerful.

 

He was a considered choice for warmaster because of his ability to unite and work with a divided and dysfunctional group. He was beloved by the majority within the imperium because he was inspirational and likeable. Of all the primarchs, he and Horus are most like the Emperor in that regard which was why they were the only two realistic choices.

 

Quite simply, a great primarch or great leader is not the same thing as a great general although of course the concepts are not mutually exclusive.

1) Fear to Thread,

2) First Heretic,

3) Aurellian,

4) Betrayer (scene on Fidelitas Lex with Erebus arrival after Armatura).

5) Legacies of Betrayal - BA short

6) The Unremembered Empire

7) Pharos

8) The Path of Heaven

9) Angels of Caliban

10) MoM (Primarchs discussion)

and lot of audios and shorts

[Indefragable]

I've read 95% of the HH series and can't think of a single quote to verify that. However, please feel free to reference the relevant books and pages and I'll be happy to admit my error.

 

Sanguinius is a highly respected primarch and must certainly be considered as one of the most influential / powerful.

 

He was a considered choice for warmaster because of his ability to unite and work with a divided and dysfunctional group. He was beloved by the majority within the imperium because he was inspirational and likeable. Of all the primarchs, he and Horus are most like the Emperor in that regard which was why they were the only two realistic choices.

 

Quite simply, a great primarch or great leader is not the same thing as a great general although of course the concepts are not mutually exclusive.

 

Not trying to turn this into a pissing contest, especially since I am biased myself. 

 

There is certainly an argument to be made for Sanguinius' capabilities, as others have pointed out/will have quicker access to sources than I. 

 

That being said, I will concede a few points to you:

 

1) In regards to almost anything about Sangy, so little has been actually written on Sanguinius, that we sort of half to wait and see one way or another. There is another anecdotal /3rd party tidbits that you can't outright deny the argument, but then again without more information we can't (yet) make any definitive proclamations either

 

2) Was Sanguinius the best chess player of the Primarchs? Maybe not. I do agree that it's possible that Sanguinius' personal BAMF-ness could have made up for any strategy in a lot of ways. I would think he would at least be in the top 10 (again, referring to tidbits such as Horus fawning over him in Horus Rising) for generalship, but I will concede the point you're making. 

[Arkangilos]

Also, the BA codex said he was.

 

"Sanguinius now stepped into the void left by Horus' Desertion, assuming command of the Emepror's loyal forces." ~Codex: Blood Angels, Page 8.

 

"It is said that Horus hated and feared Sanguinius more than any of his brothers and wove many strategies to ensnare or slay him, though all failed." Same source.

 

So, at Terra, out of Kahn, Dorn, and Sanguinius, Sanguinius was put in charge.

 

Horus, one of the best generals, consistently failed to defeat him, with Sanguinius overcoming his traps, strategies, and tactics.

 

Does this make Sanguinius the best? No, but it ranks him in the top five.

 

Guilliman, Horus, the Lion, Fulgrim (maybe, ish), Sanguinius.

 

I say maybe for Fulgrim because while his strategies and plans were masterworks, didn't they take a lot more effort and time? It goes back to the saying, "a bad plan now is better than a perfect plan later".

[Indefragable]

I say maybe for Fulgrim because while his strategies and plans were masterworks, didn't they take a lot more effort and time? It goes back to the saying, "a bad plan now is better than a perfect plan later".

 

Fulgrim would have been better, but getting your hair right takes time. 

[Beauceron]

 

 

I've read 95% of the HH series and can't think of a single quote to verify that. However, please feel free to reference the relevant books and pages and I'll be happy to admit my error.

 

Sanguinius is a highly respected primarch and must certainly be considered as one of the most influential / powerful.

 

He was a considered choice for warmaster because of his ability to unite and work with a divided and dysfunctional group. He was beloved by the majority within the imperium because he was inspirational and likeable. Of all the primarchs, he and Horus are most like the Emperor in that regard which was why they were the only two realistic choices.

 

Quite simply, a great primarch or great leader is not the same thing as a great general although of course the concepts are not mutually exclusive.

Not trying to turn this into a pissing contest, especially since I am biased myself.

 

There is certainly an argument to be made for Sanguinius' capabilities, as others have pointed out/will have quicker access to sources than I.

 

That being said, I will concede a few points to you:

 

1) In regards to almost anything about Sangy, so little has been actually written on Sanguinius, that we sort of half to wait and see one way or another. There is another anecdotal /3rd party tidbits that you can't outright deny the argument, but then again without more information we can't (yet) make any definitive proclamations either

 

2) Was Sanguinius the best chess player of the Primarchs? Maybe not. I do agree that it's possible that Sanguinius' personal BAMF-ness could have made up for any strategy in a lot of ways. I would think he would at least be in the top 10 (again, referring to tidbits such as Horus fawning over him in Horus Rising) for generalship, but I will concede the point you're making.

Very fair points; the information is incomplete and more than a little subjective.

 

One thing to consider though; many books speak about the primarchs considers to be the best generals and Sanguinius is not mentioned amongst them that I can recall. The names most commonly mentioned are Dorn, Guilliman, Jonson and Horus.

 

We might not know everything about his capabilities, but the same can be said for most of the Primarchs. However, the source material does point to him being a great Melee fighter and inspirational leader and that is certainly what he is more renowned for.

[Loesh]

 

I say maybe for Fulgrim because while his strategies and plans were masterworks, didn't they take a lot more effort and time? It goes back to the saying, "a bad plan now is better than a perfect plan later".

 

 

Effort yes, time no. He conquered a planet in a month that the imperium calculated to take a decade at least otherwise.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

 

I say maybe for Fulgrim because while his strategies and plans were masterworks, didn't they take a lot more effort and time? It goes back to the saying, "a bad plan now is better than a perfect plan later".

 

Effort yes, time no. He conquered a planet in a month that the imperium calculated to take a decade at least otherwise.

Then I maintain his place in my list :p

[Indefragable]

 

I say maybe for Fulgrim because while his strategies and plans were masterworks, didn't they take a lot more effort and time? It goes back to the saying, "a bad plan now is better than a perfect plan later".

 

Fulgrim would have been better, but getting your hair right takes time....

 

 

 

 

I say maybe for Fulgrim because while his strategies and plans were masterworks, didn't they take a lot more effort and time? It goes back to the saying, "a bad plan now is better than a perfect plan later".

 

 

Effort yes, time no. He conquered a planet in a month that the imperium calculated to take a decade at least otherwise.

 

 

...but when it looks fabulous, WALLS WILL FALL.

[b1soul]

On best generals, Ferrus is one of them as well...according to FW

 

Also Guilliman and in his own way Alpharius

[Loesh]

 

 

I say maybe for Fulgrim because while his strategies and plans were masterworks, didn't they take a lot more effort and time? It goes back to the saying, "a bad plan now is better than a perfect plan later".

 

Fulgrim would have been better, but getting your hair right takes time....

 

 

 

 

I say maybe for Fulgrim because while his strategies and plans were masterworks, didn't they take a lot more effort and time? It goes back to the saying, "a bad plan now is better than a perfect plan later".

 

 

Effort yes, time no. He conquered a planet in a month that the imperium calculated to take a decade at least otherwise.

 

 

...but when it looks fabulous, WALLS WILL FALL.

 

 

That's his secret, his hairs always fabulous.

[HeritorA]

 

 

I've read 95% of the HH series and can't think of a single quote to verify that. However, please feel free to reference the relevant books and pages and I'll be happy to admit my error.

 

Sanguinius is a highly respected primarch and must certainly be considered as one of the most influential / powerful.

 

He was a considered choice for warmaster because of his ability to unite and work with a divided and dysfunctional group. He was beloved by the majority within the imperium because he was inspirational and likeable. Of all the primarchs, he and Horus are most like the Emperor in that regard which was why they were the only two realistic choices.

 

Quite simply, a great primarch or great leader is not the same thing as a great general although of course the concepts are not mutually exclusive.

Not trying to turn this into a pissing contest, especially since I am biased myself.

 

There is certainly an argument to be made for Sanguinius' capabilities, as others have pointed out/will have quicker access to sources than I.

 

That being said, I will concede a few points to you:

 

1) In regards to almost anything about Sangy, so little has been actually written on Sanguinius, that we sort of half to wait and see one way or another. There is another anecdotal /3rd party tidbits that you can't outright deny the argument, but then again without more information we can't (yet) make any definitive proclamations either

 

2) Was Sanguinius the best chess player of the Primarchs? Maybe not. I do agree that it's possible that Sanguinius' personal BAMF-ness could have made up for any strategy in a lot of ways. I would think he would at least be in the top 10 (again, referring to tidbits such as Horus fawning over him in Horus Rising) for generalship, but I will concede the point you're making.

Very fair points; the information is incomplete and more than a little subjective.

 

One thing to consider though; many books speak about the primarchs considers to be the best generals and Sanguinius is not mentioned amongst them that I can recall. The names most commonly mentioned are Dorn, Guilliman, Jonson and Horus.

 

We might not know everything about his capabilities, but the same can be said for most of the Primarchs. However, the source material does point to him being a great Melee fighter and inspirational leader and that is certainly what he is more renowned for.

 

They are particularly mentioned cause the latest novels were about them. And then Primarchs (in Scars) discussed the most powerful between them  - guys like Perturabo, Dorn wasn't even mentioned. They are not in the league.

Sangy is definitely in the top 3 - Horus, the Lion, Sanguinius.

Lorgar directly said to Horus in 'Betrayer' - only you (Horus) and Angron have any chance to win over Sanguinius. And Horus agreed with him - so from the Lorgar and A D-B mouths Sangy is top 3.

[Rafen IX]

Yup, Lion wasn't even mentioned in Scars to be fair.

[HeritorA]

Yup, Lion wasn't even mentioned in Scars to be fair.

But he was mentioned by Horus in VS and by Guilliman in UE as one of the top. To be truthful it's hard to build a top tier of Primarchs.

In general if you would include comments of both sides through all mentions in 42 numbered books so far it goes these way:

First - Horus/Lion.

Second - Sanguinius/Angron.

Third -  Russ/Guilliman.

[Mellow]

Most of you are a little off about Sanguinius and Angrons stare down. Sanguinius hadn't killed any Bloodthristers at this point, or indeed anyone. The traitors have landed on Terra and taken both of the spaceports and the tide has turned very much in their favour, the battle then stops for a moment at which point Angron comes forward. The actual extract is:

 

 

This was a war where there could be no honourable peace. It was destroy or be destroyed. For a moment all was silence, then Angron strode forth. In his brazen voice he demanded that the loyalists surrender. He told them that their cause was hopeless, as they faced a foe which could not be defeated. They were cut off, outnumbered, and defending a ruler too weak to be worthy of their loyalty. In that moment the men on the walls felt their resolve weaken. Looking at the transformed face of the Primarch who had once been one of the Emperor's finest warriors, they saw an invincible, relentless foe backed by a numberless horde and all the daemonic might of Chaos.

 

There was a clamour on the walls as Sanguinius and the Blood Angels arrived. Standing on the wall, the angel-winged Primarch glared on Angron with angry contempt. For long moments their gazes locked, each Primarch seemed to be measuring the other, searching for chinks in the armour, for any sign of weakness and lack of resolve. Who knows what they saw there? Perhaps they communicated telepathically, brother Primarch to brother Primarch. The truth will never be known. Eventually Angron turned and walked back to his lines. He told his troops that there would be no surrender; they should kill everyone they found within the palace. No stone should be left upon stone.

I love Sanguinius as much as the next BA player, hell look at my name. But this scene to me, is very clearly not Angron being afraid to fight him. They haven't even breached the walls yet. I picture Angron sort of grunting in a "Whatever" way and walking away to tell the troops to begin the attack again, not really that phased or bothered, if anything hoping that would be the answer from the defenders. Still an awesome scene though and epic in how Sanguinius arrived and revitalises all the defenders who were on the verge of giving up.

I'm so glad you produced that quote. I was wondering why everyone was Mis-remembering the scene ever so slightly. I take the whole thing that Angron just sees the stubborn loyalty of Sanguinius and just orders the attack knowing there's no words to sway him.

 

They may have communicated telepathically but at that point it's not hugely important as to whether that happens or whether they just stare at each other.

 

As for his fight with Horus. Maybe the "chink" in the armour isn't a physical one. Maybe it's just putting a grain of doubt in Horus. Something so small it causes the hesitancy in the final attack on The Emperor which in turn gives Him time for the soul destroying mind bullet

[Morovir]

In Vengeful Spirit, Horus says that the greatest general of the Primarchs was Ferrus, and that 'he knew war like no other. Terra would already be ours if he had joined us'.

[bluntblade]

Actually, the Lion is referenced in Scars - "the I Legion, led by the consummate general"

[TheRealMcCagh]

Considering we have Horus himself saying Sanguinius should be Warmaster (False Gods), Horus saying many of the Primarchs would think Sanguinius should have been Warmaster (Fear to Tread), Erebus (or was it Lorgar?) saying Horus didn't want Sanguinius to rebel because then Horus would have competition, which Horus confirms (Fear to Tread), Guilliman and the Lion saying no one embodies the Emperor better then Sanguinius before they elect him to rule Imperium Secundus (Unremembered Empire), shouldn't Horus and Sanguinius be tied for the top spot?

 

I think it's mentioned somewhere that the Lion had the most tactical acumen of the Primarchs, which I always took to mean battlefield ingenuity sort of. So the Lion should be a contender for the top, but he also had a not-insignificant portion of his own legion go rogue and rebel against him. It wasn't even really a pro-Chaos mutiny, just anti-Lion. Kind of works against his 'greatest Primarch general' credibility in my opinion.

[Indefragable]

 

I think it's mentioned somewhere that the Lion had the most tactical acumen of the Primarchs, which I always took to mean battlefield ingenuity sort of. So the Lion should be a contender for the top, but he also had a not-insignificant portion of his own legion go rogue and rebel against him. It wasn't even really a pro-Chaos mutiny, just anti-Lion. Kind of works against his 'greatest Primarch general' credibility in my opinion.

 

I don't know about that. For one, it's a narrative/character arc. Using that against the Lion would be like saying "well, some of Sanguinius's sons had their own blood rebel against him! Disqualification!" Secondly, the rebels (not the same as traitors, though traitors were also rebels) in the DA were really more fanatically pro-Caliban than anti-Lion. And especially since they were essentially try to uphold the knightly ideas that the Lion himself embodied before the arrival of the Imperium, it's something that I would say we can't really hold against him. Yes there was a rivalry with Luther, but that was a symptom rather than a cause. And if go around blaming people for being stabbed in the back by those they trust the most, then the Emperor was a shmuck as well. 

[TheRealMcCagh]

I don't think using a gene flaw is the same argument at all. One is a biological flaw, the other is a character flaw. You wouldn't fault a general for having Lupus or Diabetes. You would fault a general for making a string of poor decisions that led to a huge portion of his men rebel against him. You would also fault a general for giving WMD's to the enemy because he allowed himself to get sweet talked (wasn't the Lion supposed to have trust issues??). If someone tries to assassinate me, I'm not sending them back home to raise my army and watch after my house. That's just asking for it

[Rafen IX]

Here's a quote from 'The Outcast Dead' Graham McNeil

 

Black and red entwined, a golden eye, slitted like a cats. Ivory pinions, a boom of air and a clash of swords. Halo and thorny crown clash, a beating of breasts. Luminous and wondrous rears above hard edged plate and monstrous ambition. They are clawed and enraged. A stalemate of blows, a battle of wills fought in realms beyond the understanding of mortal senses.

It is martial perfection unmatched. Only one battle in the history of the Galaxy will ever eclipse its fury, and it will be fought in the same place in a matter of moments. That one such battle should take place is remarkable. Two is unheard of.

There are no forms he can see, only light and darkness, fleeting impressions of battling Titans. These warriors are avatars, numinous and filled with the light of creation at the heart of the universe. Mounded into ideally-wrought mortal form and unleashed upon the Galaxy, they are bright burning stars, all the brighter for their achingly short existence.

Voices take shape, but Kai is relieved beyond imagining that he cannot understand them, for who would dare listen to the words of the gods? These incredible beings come together once more, and though their language is unknown to him, meaning seeps into his consciousness.

Gods may be beyond understanding but they WILL be heard.

Promises are made. Offers of power and servitude. Seductive bargains offered as promises. Angelic scorn is poured them. Hurt tears of rage and rejection. Bloody tears on golden features, a necessary death, the most infinitesimal crack in the most impenetrable armour. A life given willingly, a sacrifice on the altar of the future.

 

 

[simison]

I think the Greatest General Primarch question is really hard to answer because there are several different traits that make a great general. There is the tactical level, simply able to respond and counter your enemy on the battlefield. There is the strategic level, arranging the battlefield in the first place. Then you have logistics, making sure your troops are equipped and fed enough to fight. And there are still others. How about loyalty? Making sure your own men stay on the field. Then there's always sheer personal combat ability. Hard to win a battle against a general who is making mincemeat of your soldiers. 

 

Of course, I'm biased, so Sanguinius is totes best EVAR! *runs off* 

[Beauceron]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've read 95% of the HH series and can't think of a single quote to verify that. However, please feel free to reference the relevant books and pages and I'll be happy to admit my error.

 

Sanguinius is a highly respected primarch and must certainly be considered as one of the most influential / powerful.

 

He was a considered choice for warmaster because of his ability to unite and work with a divided and dysfunctional group. He was beloved by the majority within the imperium because he was inspirational and likeable. Of all the primarchs, he and Horus are most like the Emperor in that regard which was why they were the only two realistic choices.

 

Quite simply, a great primarch or great leader is not the same thing as a great general although of course the concepts are not mutually exclusive.

Not trying to turn this into a pissing contest, especially since I am biased myself.

 

There is certainly an argument to be made for Sanguinius' capabilities, as others have pointed out/will have quicker access to sources than I.

 

That being said, I will concede a few points to you:

 

1) In regards to almost anything about Sangy, so little has been actually written on Sanguinius, that we sort of half to wait and see one way or another. There is another anecdotal /3rd party tidbits that you can't outright deny the argument, but then again without more information we can't (yet) make any definitive proclamations either

 

2) Was Sanguinius the best chess player of the Primarchs? Maybe not. I do agree that it's possible that Sanguinius' personal BAMF-ness could have made up for any strategy in a lot of ways. I would think he would at least be in the top 10 (again, referring to tidbits such as Horus fawning over him in Horus Rising) for generalship, but I will concede the point you're making.

Very fair points; the information is incomplete and more than a little subjective.

 

One thing to consider though; many books speak about the primarchs considers to be the best generals and Sanguinius is not mentioned amongst them that I can recall. The names most commonly mentioned are Dorn, Guilliman, Jonson and Horus.

 

We might not know everything about his capabilities, but the same can be said for most of the Primarchs. However, the source material does point to him being a great Melee fighter and inspirational leader and that is certainly what he is more renowned for.

They are particularly mentioned cause the latest novels were about them. And then Primarchs (in Scars) discussed the most powerful between them - guys like Perturabo, Dorn wasn't even mentioned. They are not in the league.

Sangy is definitely in the top 3 - Horus, the Lion, Sanguinius.

Lorgar directly said to Horus in 'Betrayer' - only you (Horus) and Angron have any chance to win over Sanguinius. And Horus agreed with him - so from the Lorgar and A D-B mouths Sangy is top 3.

Yes; in combat, not as a strategist.