How awesome is the Angel?

[Brother Captain Kezef]

The thing about strategy is there are different kinds.

 

Take two of the best allied generals in WW2, Patton and Montgomery.

 

One was a master of the lightning war, learned from the Germans and put it into practice with the full might of the American industry behind him. The other was the master of the set-piece battle, a man who worked out a plan, stuck to it and ignored political interference until he was ready.

 

Take the Duke of Wellington, undisputed master of defensive warfare, a man willing to give up most of Portugal to bring his foe to the time and place of HIS choosing.

 

Ghengis Khan, a charismatic and fierce leader who wielded terror the way his warriors wielded the saber and bow.

 

Ceaser, he was his own propogandist and turned a total failure in Britain into a mighty political triumpth. he was not considered the best general, Mark Antony was a better field general but, like Eisenhower, Ceaser was a adept politician who could use his subordinates to his best advantage.

 

Richard Lioheart, a charismatic and brilliant field commander but the most inept political leader until Charles 1st.

 

Each and every Primarch was an excellent and skilled general, each had legendary and epic feats of leadership that made them the pinnacle of their respective craft.

 

What made Horus better and this is made clear in the very first book of the HH series, is that Horus is an excellent and skilled politician. he could balance and build loyalties between elements of the Imperial forces hostile to each other, broker plans and strategies involving disparate and fractious forces. He created a toolbox out of the Imperial military with each and every force, unit, political body and legion ready and willing to fit into his plans as and where he wanted them.

 

Ferrus Manus, Russ, the Khan? They could not achieve this, other Primarchs would operate alone or with a select circle of elements loyal to them and their own views.

 

Only Guiliman or the Angel could truly equal Horus in this element of war.

[Mellow]

He's going to save the Imperium!

 

He's the best!

 

Woohoo!

 

*cough*

[pompeyladbfp]

Sanguinius will be re born in 40k so its ok...

[Beauceron]

The thing about strategy is there are different kinds.

 

Take two of the best allied generals in WW2, Patton and Montgomery.

 

One was a master of the lightning war, learned from the Germans and put it into practice with the full might of the American industry behind him. The other was the master of the set-piece battle, a man who worked out a plan, stuck to it and ignored political interference until he was ready.

 

Take the Duke of Wellington, undisputed master of defensive warfare, a man willing to give up most of Portugal to bring his foe to the time and place of HIS choosing.

 

Ghengis Khan, a charismatic and fierce leader who wielded terror the way his warriors wielded the saber and bow.

 

Ceaser, he was his own propogandist and turned a total failure in Britain into a mighty political triumpth. he was not considered the best general, Mark Antony was a better field general but, like Eisenhower, Ceaser was a adept politician who could use his subordinates to his best advantage.

 

Richard Lioheart, a charismatic and brilliant field commander but the most inept political leader until Charles 1st.

 

Each and every Primarch was an excellent and skilled general, each had legendary and epic feats of leadership that made them the pinnacle of their respective craft.

 

What made Horus better and this is made clear in the very first book of the HH series, is that Horus is an excellent and skilled politician. he could balance and build loyalties between elements of the Imperial forces hostile to each other, broker plans and strategies involving disparate and fractious forces. He created a toolbox out of the Imperial military with each and every force, unit, political body and legion ready and willing to fit into his plans as and where he wanted them.

 

Ferrus Manus, Russ, the Khan? They could not achieve this, other Primarchs would operate alone or with a select circle of elements loyal to them and their own views.

 

Only Guiliman or the Angel could truly equal Horus in this element of war.

Fair points but I'd look at it from a slight different angle: 'a myriad of skills makes an individual a great general / strategist not there are different kinds.'

 

As you say, all the primarchs were superlative generals but there were some in the fraternity that stood out more. By stating my opinion that Sanguinius is not one of them, I'm not implying he's not one of the strongest / influential Primarchs. His specialist talents lie elsewhere and whilst he surpassed his brothers in many ways, I think many of them have the edge in regards to military application.

[b1soul]

Ghengis Khan, a charismatic and fierce leader who wielded terror the way his warriors wielded the saber and bow.

 

On ol' Genghis...while he was a certainly a highly competent military commander, the greatest Mongol general was arguably Genghis' subordinate Subotai

 

Of the two, Genghis appeared to be the much better politician, able to unify the warring Mongol clans (though he was perhaps not quite as brilliant on the battlefield as Subotai)

 

I think Horus was that perfect balance of politician amd general. Guys like Ferrus and the Lion were all general and rather bad politicians

 

Roboute came somewhat close to Horus...but his charisma still fell short and he was nowhere near as popular among the primarchs. At the end of the day, Roboute was more administrator/logistician, than a charismatic politician like Horus.

 

Julius Caesar also strikes me as a great comparison...both brilliant in the Senate and on campaign.

[Indefragable]

 

Ghengis Khan, a charismatic and fierce leader who wielded terror the way his warriors wielded the saber and bow.

On ol' Genghis...while he was a certainly a highly competent military commander, the greatest Mongol general was arguably Genghis' subordinate Subotai

 

Of the two, Genghis appeared to be the much better politician, able to unify the warring Mongol clans (though he was perhaps not quite as brilliant on the battlefield as Subotai)

 

I think Horus was that perfect balance of politician amd general. Guys like Ferrus and the Lion were all general and rather bad politicians

 

Roboute came somewhat close to Horus...but his charisma still fell short and he was nowhere near as popular among the primarchs. At the end of the day, Roboute was more administrator/logistician, than a charismatic politician like Horus.

 

Julius Caesar also strikes me as a great comparison...both brilliant in the Senate and on campaign.

 

 

Ghengis is probably actually not a bad comparison to Horus: both were deadly on the battlefield, but also had the right combo of traits (whether it was fear or inspiration they instilled in their subordinates is up for debate) to keep other incredibly talented and bloodthirsty leaders in line as well.

 

Subotai.....he almost conquered all of Europe with what was essentially a scouting party....

 

I think Guilliman was pretty charasmatic over all...he was a "good guy" in general, but where he fell short of Horus was that he was opinionated. And he let everyone know his opinions...to their chagrin. Dorn was much the same way. They both had the habit of giving unsolicited advice and commenting on other people's lunches.

 

Horus found a way to make use of everyone's talents, regardless of what he thought of them. Lacking a moral core? Perhaps. But he knew how to make every piece on the chessboard work to his advantage.

 

I think Sanguinius was somewhere in the between. He definitely disapproved of some of his brothers, but I think his big thing was that he led by example and that was part of his charisma. He did not resort to underhanded tactics, but still found a way to win the dirty fights. And so other primarchs either admired that and could get on board with it, or they resented it because they could never emulate those standards (Curze?) or they were the antithesis of their own situation (Angron?).

[hopkins]

Primarch top trumps again? Yay!

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Primarch top trumps again? Yay!

 

It's been this way since 2nd ed

[HeritorA]

In Vengeful Spirit, Horus says that the greatest general of the Primarchs was Ferrus, and that 'he knew war like no other. Terra would already be ours if he had joined us'.

We did not discuss Ferrus provess cause he is dead from the 'start'

 

The one and only novel about the BA 'Fear to Thread' has an opening where Horus directly states to Sanguinius after the nephilim conflict that only Sangy and Ferrus are stellar strategist amongst them all.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I'm definitely looking forward to the battle at the gate - but so far, the BL has been a tremendous letdown for me in regards to the Blood Angels and Sanguinius. I grew up with BA from the first mention of Sanguinius on to the first codex and forever since... but most of the Sanguinius characterization in the Horus Heresy series has painted him too weird/emo (Michael Jackson meets Edward Scissorhands) for my taste. Then in Fear to Thread, somehow noble and pure hearted turned into naive, foolish and slow thinking; despite the vocalized praise from other Primarchs. So I have to admit I am weary about the Blood Angels treatment going forward.

 

So far in Master of Mankind, Zephon, a minor character, had more depth than any other Blood Angel in the series so far, even Sanguinius and that's pretty sad. I would shake ADB's hand if I could and thank him for that tiny but delicious crumb.

 

Don't get me started on 40K... at least in the Heresy era, Chaos is still mostly an unforeseen wildcard, and the breadth of its enchantment is not known, but in 40K - everyone knows what Chaos is, everyone knows what its capable of, everyone that enters a pact with the dark gods at this point does so with full-disclosure. Except of course, the longest living Imperial Space Marines, with the oldest and wisest Space Marine Commander in the galaxy; the dumb Blood Angels are fooled by the laziest chaos trick, twice! ...I'll stop here because I could fill a page with this subject in particular.

[RedFurioso]

 

The one and only novel about the BA 'Fear to Thread' has an opening where Horus directly states to Sanguinius after the nephilim conflict that only Sangy and Ferrus are stellar strategist amongst them all.

 

I don't recall seeing Ferrus' mention in Fear to Thread...

[HeritorA]

Chaplain Gunzhard

'So far in Master of Mankind, Zephon, a minor character, had more depth than any other Blood Angel in the series so far, even Sanguinius and that's pretty sad. I would shake ADB's hand if I could and thank him for that tiny but delicious crumb.'

- exactly and that's says something about how the BA Legion was forgotten and ignored so far in BL books, lol .

'Don't get me started on 40K... at least in the Heresy era, Chaos is still mostly an unforeseen wildcard, and the breadth of its enchantment is not known, but in 40K - everyone knows what Chaos is, everyone knows what its capable of, everyone that enters a pact with the dark gods at this point does so with full-disclosure. Except of course, the longest living Imperial Space Marines, with the oldest and wisest Space Marine Commander in the galaxy; the dumb Blood Angels are fooled by the laziest chaos trick, twice! ...I'll stop here because I could fill a page with this subject in particular.'

- not so. Hundred of thousands died and planet exterminated by Inquisition if they suspect a single heretical or daemonic case, or witnessing of it. And that at the time of Chaos rifts spawning everywhere Inquisition help Chaos more than Chaos deities itself lol

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Chaplain Gunzhard

'So far in Master of Mankind, Zephon, a minor character, had more depth than any other Blood Angel in the series so far, even Sanguinius and that's pretty sad. I would shake ADB's hand if I could and thank him for that tiny but delicious crumb.'

- exactly and that's says something about how the BA Legion was forgotten and ignored so far in BL books, lol .

'Don't get me started on 40K... at least in the Heresy era, Chaos is still mostly an unforeseen wildcard, and the breadth of its enchantment is not known, but in 40K - everyone knows what Chaos is, everyone knows what its capable of, everyone that enters a pact with the dark gods at this point does so with full-disclosure. Except of course, the longest living Imperial Space Marines, with the oldest and wisest Space Marine Commander in the galaxy; the dumb Blood Angels are fooled by the laziest chaos trick, twice! ...I'll stop here because I could fill a page with this subject in particular.'

- not so. Hundred of thousands died and planet exterminated by Inquisition if they suspect a single heretical or daemonic case, or witnessing of it. And that at the time of Chaos rifts spawning everywhere Inquisition help Chaos more than Chaos deities itself lol

Ha yeah well... backworld civilians and local PDF of course, but I mean Armies of the Imperium, for the most part anyway [make deals with chaos having full disclosure at this point]. Certainly the longest living Space Marines should know better. It also doesn't make sense that obnoxious, young, upstart welps are so quickly leading the longest living Space Marines either but I digress. :)

Bottom line, Blood Angel representation in the BL has been horrendous. Though I hear Dante has some promise.

[HeritorA]

Chaplain Gunzhard

'So far in Master of Mankind, Zephon, a minor character, had more depth than any other Blood Angel in the series so far, even Sanguinius and that's pretty sad. I would shake ADB's hand if I could and thank him for that tiny but delicious crumb.'

- exactly and that's says something about how the BA Legion was forgotten and ignored so far in BL books, lol .

'Don't get me started on 40K... at least in the Heresy era, Chaos is still mostly an unforeseen wildcard, and the breadth of its enchantment is not known, but in 40K - everyone knows what Chaos is, everyone knows what its capable of, everyone that enters a pact with the dark gods at this point does so with full-disclosure. Except of course, the longest living Imperial Space Marines, with the oldest and wisest Space Marine Commander in the galaxy; the dumb Blood Angels are fooled by the laziest chaos trick, twice! ...I'll stop here because I could fill a page with this subject in particular.'

- not so. Hundred of thousands died and planet exterminated by Inquisition if they suspect a single heretical or daemonic case, or witnessing of it. And that at the time of Chaos rifts spawning everywhere Inquisition help Chaos more than Chaos deities itself lol

Ha yeah well... backworld civilians and local PDF of course, but I mean Armies of the Imperium, for the most part anyway [make deals with chaos having full disclosure at this point]. Certainly the longest living Space Marines should know better. It also doesn't make sense that obnoxious, young, upstart welps are so quickly leading the longest living Space Marines either but I digress.

Bottom line, Blood Angel representation in the BL has been horrendous. Though I hear Dante has some promise.

Yeap through these year should do good to BA. In october we will have a continuation for Dante - Devastation of Baal.

As for the 'Dante' novel as I mentioned before - it's a story mainly about character creation and his way. The start was brilliant. Middle get's worse - with the conflicts running before our eyes to quickly to truly apprehend them. As for the 'present' timeline it is absolutely blank and not interesting mainly about self-doubt of Dante

[Arkangilos]

I'm definitely looking forward to the battle at the gate - but so far, the BL has been a tremendous letdown for me in regards to the Blood Angels and Sanguinius. I grew up with BA from the first mention of Sanguinius on to the first codex and forever since... but most of the Sanguinius characterization in the Horus Heresy series has painted him too weird/emo (Michael Jackson meets Edward Scissorhands) for my taste. Then in Fear to Thread, somehow noble and pure hearted turned into naive, foolish and slow thinking; despite the vocalized praise from other Primarchs. So I have to admit I am weary about the Blood Angels treatment going forward.

 

So far in Master of Mankind, Zephon, a minor character, had more depth than any other Blood Angel in the series so far, even Sanguinius and that's pretty sad. I would shake ADB's hand if I could and thank him for that tiny but delicious crumb.

 

Don't get me started on 40K... at least in the Heresy era, Chaos is still mostly an unforeseen wildcard, and the breadth of its enchantment is not known, but in 40K - everyone knows what Chaos is, everyone knows what its capable of, everyone that enters a pact with the dark gods at this point does so with full-disclosure. Except of course, the longest living Imperial Space Marines, with the oldest and wisest Space Marine Commander in the galaxy; the dumb Blood Angels are fooled by the laziest chaos trick, twice! ...I'll stop here because I could fill a page with this subject in particular.

What trick did they fall for twice? The fifth Company falling to the Black Rage wasn't them falling to a trick, it was literally them coming out in the middle of a spell. They didn't have a choice. As of the first time, there is no indication it is still canon so they've only had that problem once, and there was nothing they could do to stop it.

[MrDarth151]

Then in Fear to Thread, somehow noble and pure hearted turned into naive, foolish and slow thinking; despite the vocalized praise from other Primarchs. So I have to admit I am weary about the Blood Angels treatment going forward.

Really? I wouldn't call them that, to be honest. I consider Fear to Thread to not be a best book I have ever read, but I don't mind it. Certainly not even close to the worst one of the Horus Heresy.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

 

I'm definitely looking forward to the battle at the gate - but so far, the BL has been a tremendous letdown for me in regards to the Blood Angels and Sanguinius. I grew up with BA from the first mention of Sanguinius on to the first codex and forever since... but most of the Sanguinius characterization in the Horus Heresy series has painted him too weird/emo (Michael Jackson meets Edward Scissorhands) for my taste. Then in Fear to Thread, somehow noble and pure hearted turned into naive, foolish and slow thinking; despite the vocalized praise from other Primarchs. So I have to admit I am weary about the Blood Angels treatment going forward.

 

So far in Master of Mankind, Zephon, a minor character, had more depth than any other Blood Angel in the series so far, even Sanguinius and that's pretty sad. I would shake ADB's hand if I could and thank him for that tiny but delicious crumb.

 

Don't get me started on 40K... at least in the Heresy era, Chaos is still mostly an unforeseen wildcard, and the breadth of its enchantment is not known, but in 40K - everyone knows what Chaos is, everyone knows what its capable of, everyone that enters a pact with the dark gods at this point does so with full-disclosure. Except of course, the longest living Imperial Space Marines, with the oldest and wisest Space Marine Commander in the galaxy; the dumb Blood Angels are fooled by the laziest chaos trick, twice! ...I'll stop here because I could fill a page with this subject in particular.

What trick did they fall for twice? The fifth Company falling to the Black Rage wasn't them falling to a trick, it was literally them coming out in the middle of a spell. They didn't have a choice. As of the first time, there is no indication it is still canon so they've only had that problem once, and there was nothing they could do to stop it.

 

 

C'mon dude really? ... a Blood Angel sprouted wings and everyone stupidly accepted he was Sanguinius returned, how did he not immediately have a bolt round through his skull?  And they didn't just get angry and fall to rage, they were pushed/tricked into it by Chaos. Those books were absolutely awful, forcefully blunt and predictable, and didn't in anyway respect the previous fluff/canon of the Blood Angels. The characters were cliche and one dimension except for the stock introspective and cautious hero... there were Inquisitors promoting Blood Angels to ranking positions etc etc... oh man.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by, "there is no indication it is still canon", but to me those books are not canon, cuz they're terrible.

 

 

 

Then in Fear to Thread, somehow noble and pure hearted turned into naive, foolish and slow thinking; despite the vocalized praise from other Primarchs. So I have to admit I am weary about the Blood Angels treatment going forward.

Really? I wouldn't call them that, to be honest. I consider Fear to Thread to not be a best book I have ever read, but I don't mind it. Certainly not even close to the worst one of the Horus Heresy.

 

 

Yeah I mean Horus dumped plenty of praise on him and warned his other brother of Sanguinius's prowess, but when it came to actual parts with Sanguinius - he had barely one entire sentence of decent dialog in the whole book, he was slow-witted and the last to figure things out like his 'son' succumbed or Horus's tricks, he was depressed into non-action basically by the end until the final scene where he was over-top comic hero.

[MrDarth151]

 

Yeah I mean Horus dumped plenty of praise on him and warned his other brother of Sanguinius's prowess, but when it came to actual parts with Sanguinius - he had barely one entire sentence of decent dialog in the whole book, he was slow-witted and the last to figure things out like his 'son' succumbed or Horus's tricks, he was depressed into non-action basically by the end until the final scene where he was over-top comic hero.

 

 

Eh, what? Can you give actual examples, because I feel very much we have read different books, you and I, and considering I have recently listened to Fear to Tread for the third time, I feel I have fairly good grasp of the book.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Which part?

[MrDarth151]

Which part?

 

I do not consider Sanguinius in Fear to Tread to be slow witted. Nor do I think suffering a psychic backlash counts as being depressed into non-action.

 

As for the "over the top comic hero" thing, that finale of Fear to Tread doesn't even make it into top ten of most ludicrous things Primarchs have done.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Eh ok, I mean he is literally always the last one to come to every realization, his brother Lorgar, his brother Horus, when Captain Ral comes to him and says, 'hey boss we have a legion matter', he stands there stupidly wondering why long enough to tip off Horus, and this had already happened several times at this point; and at the very end of the book, psychic backlash eh it's so weak but ok, but finally he comes to his senses when his legion is almost dead, and only the [insert stock Swallow hero] humble and cautious Meros can save him.

 

I will agree with you on that last point, and I could totally forgive all comic book ridiculousness in the 40k universe, if at a minimum the author respects the background and the dialog at least shouldn't be 'comic book' like. Every line from Sanguinius in that book could've had a comic dialog bubble.

 

I read this book twice, once when it first came out - which prompted me stopping reading the series; then last year as I got back into the HH series again I decided to read it again because it was so forgetful the first time. Perhaps listening to it instead is more dynamic I dunno...

 

 

[Arkangilos]

 

 C'mon dude really? ... a Blood Angel sprouted wings and everyone stupidly accepted he was Sanguinius returned, how did he not immediately have a bolt round through his skull?  And they didn't just get angry and fall to rage, they were pushed/tricked into it by Chaos. Those books were absolutely awful, forcefully blunt and predictable, and didn't in anyway respect the previous fluff/canon of the Blood Angels. The characters were cliche and one dimension except for the stock introspective and cautious hero... there were Inquisitors promoting Blood Angels to ranking positions etc etc... oh man.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by, "there is no indication it is still canon", but to me those books are not canon, cuz they're terrible.

 

First off, that first part you are talking about is CLEARLY not the part I was talking about. How you came to that conclusion based on me saying, "Fifth company literally transitioned from the warp straight into the spell that turned them crazy" is beyond me. It was pretty damn obvious I was talking about Angels Blade, and there is no way in hell you can say they were tricked. 

 

The second part of it "not being canon" was the only reference to the book series I made. Also, I hate to break it to you, but we don't get to decide what is canon or not. We can't go, "I like the EU more so therefore the EU is still canon." No, it's not. The company sets the canon. What I mean when I say there is no longer any indication that it is canon is that it literally does not show up anywhere else ever again despite the extreme importance of the events. Basically, since it happens After Tycho's death, yet there is no mention of the tyranid threat then it likely happens in an alternate timeline and is not canon. However, I don't set canon policy, so I don't know.

 

Also, since you went ahead and brought it up, lets talk about why they were so easily duped. In the book, they literally discuss that, and they explain very clearly that they have a scroll from Sanguinius himself saying he would return in a similar manner.

 

And if you are talking about them being duped in the Horus Heresy and duped again in 40k, well it was TEN THOUSAND YEARS LATER WITH PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT EVEN ALIVE WHEN THEY WERE TRICKED THE FIRST TIME.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

 

 

 C'mon dude really? ... a Blood Angel sprouted wings and everyone stupidly accepted he was Sanguinius returned, how did he not immediately have a bolt round through his skull?  And they didn't just get angry and fall to rage, they were pushed/tricked into it by Chaos. Those books were absolutely awful, forcefully blunt and predictable, and didn't in anyway respect the previous fluff/canon of the Blood Angels. The characters were cliche and one dimension except for the stock introspective and cautious hero... there were Inquisitors promoting Blood Angels to ranking positions etc etc... oh man.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by, "there is no indication it is still canon", but to me those books are not canon, cuz they're terrible.

 

First off, that first part you are talking about is CLEARLY not the part I was talking about. How you came to that conclusion based on me saying, "Fifth company literally transitioned from the warp straight into the spell that turned them crazy" is beyond me. It was pretty damn obvious I was talking about Angels Blade, and there is no way in hell you can say they were tricked. 

 

The second part of it "not being canon" was the only reference to the book series I made. Also, I hate to break it to you, but we don't get to decide what is canon or not. We can't go, "I like the EU more so therefore the EU is still canon." No, it's not. The company sets the canon. What I mean when I say there is no longer any indication that it is canon is that it literally does not show up anywhere else ever again despite the extreme importance of the events. Basically, since it happens After Tycho's death, yet there is no mention of the tyranid threat then it likely happens in an alternate timeline and is not canon. However, I don't set canon policy, so I don't know.

 

Also, since you went ahead and brought it up, lets talk about why they were so easily duped. In the book, they literally discuss that, and they explain very clearly that they have a scroll from Sanguinius himself saying he would return in a similar manner.

 

And if you are talking about them being duped in the Horus Heresy and duped again in 40k, well it was TEN THOUSAND YEARS LATER WITH PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT EVEN ALIVE WHEN THEY WERE TRICKED THE FIRST TIME.

 

 

Angel's Blade? ...ahh yeah ok, way way off from where I was going... I was talking about the (black library) Deus books in particular and the 'sprouting wings' guy and the Fabius Bile tricks; scroll or no scroll, a thousand+ year old Space Marine Commander would have put his Inferno pistol up that dudes nose.

 

As for your canon rant, I don't even know what point you are trying to make or why?

 

In the HH, while I thought Fear to Tread was bad, I can actually forgive the 'entire chapter falls to black rage' trope this one time because the legions hadn't really experienced chaos yet and this book also seemed to fall more in line with previous background "canon" - my issues with the book were elsewhere, as noted, and again in 40K I was talking about the BA novels.

 

As far as Angel's Blade goes... I actually liked most of it, but I think they do lean way too hard on the 'everyone falls to black rage' theme, when we already have the very interesting - Death Company; it's redundant. Still that book inspired me to finally make a Captain Aphael model and again it was mostly pretty cool.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

 

 C'mon dude really? ... a Blood Angel sprouted wings and everyone stupidly accepted he was Sanguinius returned, how did he not immediately have a bolt round through his skull?  And they didn't just get angry and fall to rage, they were pushed/tricked into it by Chaos. Those books were absolutely awful, forcefully blunt and predictable, and didn't in anyway respect the previous fluff/canon of the Blood Angels. The characters were cliche and one dimension except for the stock introspective and cautious hero... there were Inquisitors promoting Blood Angels to ranking positions etc etc... oh man.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by, "there is no indication it is still canon", but to me those books are not canon, cuz they're terrible.

 

First off, that first part you are talking about is CLEARLY not the part I was talking about. How you came to that conclusion based on me saying, "Fifth company literally transitioned from the warp straight into the spell that turned them crazy" is beyond me. It was pretty damn obvious I was talking about Angels Blade, and there is no way in hell you can say they were tricked. 

 

The second part of it "not being canon" was the only reference to the book series I made. Also, I hate to break it to you, but we don't get to decide what is canon or not. We can't go, "I like the EU more so therefore the EU is still canon." No, it's not. The company sets the canon. What I mean when I say there is no longer any indication that it is canon is that it literally does not show up anywhere else ever again despite the extreme importance of the events. Basically, since it happens After Tycho's death, yet there is no mention of the tyranid threat then it likely happens in an alternate timeline and is not canon. However, I don't set canon policy, so I don't know.

 

Also, since you went ahead and brought it up, lets talk about why they were so easily duped. In the book, they literally discuss that, and they explain very clearly that they have a scroll from Sanguinius himself saying he would return in a similar manner.

 

And if you are talking about them being duped in the Horus Heresy and duped again in 40k, well it was TEN THOUSAND YEARS LATER WITH PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT EVEN ALIVE WHEN THEY WERE TRICKED THE FIRST TIME.

 

 

Angel's Blade? ...ahh yeah ok, way way off from where I was going... I was talking about the (black library) Deus books in particular and the 'sprouting wings' guy and the Fabius Bile tricks; scroll or no scroll, a thousand+ year old Space Marine Commander would have put his Inferno pistol up that dudes nose.

 

As for your canon rant, I don't even know what point you are trying to make or why?

 

In the HH, while I thought Fear to Tread was bad, I can actually forgive the 'entire chapter falls to black rage' trope this one time because the legions hadn't really experienced chaos yet and this book also seemed to fall more in line with previous background "canon" - my issues with the book were elsewhere, as noted, and again in 40K I was talking about the BA novels.

 

As far as Angel's Blade goes... I actually liked most of it, but I think they do lean way too hard on the 'everyone falls to black rage' theme, when we already have the very interesting - Death Company; it's redundant. Still that book inspired me to finally make a Captain Aphael model and again it was mostly pretty cool.

 

Ah yeah, we were on totally different pages xD

 

My canon rant was about the, "I don't consider it canon" thing. I mean, I obviously agree with you on the grounds that I don't think it's canon, but not because I dislike it. No matter how much I dislike something, it's still canon unless there are other things (such as the codex) saying it's not. And the codex seems to imply that it is no longer canon.

[HeritorA]

 

Which part?

 

I do not consider Sanguinius in Fear to Tread to be slow witted. Nor do I think suffering a psychic backlash counts as being depressed into non-action.

 

As for the "over the top comic hero" thing, that finale of Fear to Tread doesn't even make it into top ten of most ludicrous things Primarchs have done.

 

Exactly. As for the Fear to Thread it is bad not because of Sangy description - but due to the overall prose and story.