Why numerical discrepancy between Loyalists and Traitors?

[Azorius]

In other words, why most of loyal Legions are so small? 

 

According to FW, 130,000 Astartes is mid-level size. And majority of traitor Legions boast a lot more than 130,000 Astartes - only EC, DG and TS have fewer than 130,000 Astartes and especially, size of WB and AL is rivaling the Ultramarines. 

 

Conversely AFAWK, only the Dark Angels and Ultramarines have more than 130,000 legionaries on the loyalist side. And that is reason why I earnestly hope to BA is being confirmed to have 130,000+ Astartes. And two of the smallest Legions, RG and Salamanders, are loyalist ones. 

 

Is that deliberated by Alan? If so, why disparity of such gross degree? 

[Olis]

We know the end result of the Heresy and the subsequent Scouring, we also know that the Traitor Legions (and the Dark Angels) lose their homeworlds at one point or another - although most Legions technically had a number of recruitment worlds under their fiefdom. Seeing as any major engagement or reversal can see a Legion decimated (such as the Raven Guard at Isstvan or the Ultramarines at Calth), I'd say the numbers are much less set in stone than you may think. We only get a particular head count at a given point in time (or maybe another if we're lucky). The vagaries of active deployment, attrition and recruitment rates means that the mid-tier 130,000 mark could be relatively meaningless. Well, by 'meaningless' I mean that your guess at approximate strength at a certain time would be as good as anyone else's.

[apologist]

Narratively speaking, it's more threatening to have the odds stacked against the 'good guys'.

[Captain_Krash]

The numbers are just flawed...I mean look at "Salamanders" you mean to tell me after the heresy the chapter consisted of EXACTLY 1000 marines...give me a break, including all there relics etc. Along with there "supposedly" no  successor chapters...

 

Krash

[Olis]

Narratively speaking, it's more threatening to have the odds stacked against the 'good guys'.

 

That's a fair point. ^_^

[Arkangilos]

I don't think number count really matters.

 

It won't change the outcome. It won't change the organization.

 

Adding 10k extra guys to the BA doesn't do anything.

[Purge the Daemon]

The numbers are just flawed...I mean look at "Salamanders" you mean to tell me after the heresy the chapter consisted of EXACTLY 1000 marines...give me a break, including all there relics etc. Along with there "supposedly" no successor chapters...

 

Krash

Happens to the wolves and raven Guard.

 

I guess they just assume istavan and Yarant just kill 99% of these legions off.

[Azorius]

We know the end result of the Heresy and the subsequent Scouring, we also know that the Traitor Legions (and the Dark Angels) lose their homeworlds at one point or another - although most Legions technically had a number of recruitment worlds under their fiefdom. Seeing as any major engagement or reversal can see a Legion decimated (such as the Raven Guard at Isstvan or the Ultramarines at Calth), I'd say the numbers are much less set in stone than you may think. We only get a particular head count at a given point in time (or maybe another if we're lucky). The vagaries of active deployment, attrition and recruitment rates means that the mid-tier 130,000 mark could be relatively meaningless. Well, by 'meaningless' I mean that your guess at approximate strength at a certain time would be as good as anyone else's.

That does not matter. Exact figures were already given immediately prior the Heresy. 

[Azorius]

I don't think number count really matters.

 

It won't change the outcome. It won't change the organization.

 

Adding 10k extra guys to the BA doesn't do anything.

Of course. You are right. Adding 10k extra guys to BL do not make any difference in any meaningful way. 

 

But that gives to loyalist one more decent size Legion, so it looks good, at the very least. 

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

I guess you can make an argument for realism by making the traitors and loyalists somewhat even in size, but I don't really know if we need to do that. I think it actually makes sense for the loyalists to be outnumbered, as Horus is a smart enough commander to try to get everything on his side before starting his revolt. He had the backing of nine of the legions and he actually thought he might have 10 (he really counted on Fulgrim delivering him the Iron Hands) and after the double punches of Istvaan III purging his own forces of loyalists (thus leaving the loyal legions with uncertain loyalties due to the warrior lodges) and then Istvaan V to crush three of the remaining loyal legions he absolutely should have overall supremacy in numbers of Astartes as well as material due to the time he spent preparing as well as the deal he made with Mars.

 

Why didn't he win then, since he had the advantage in numbers? It's a mixture of individual heroics by several loyal Astartes as well as the problem of trying to dig the Emperor out of the most fortified place on the most fortified planet in the most fortified system in the entire galaxy. Stuff like that is going to be hard, even with numerical and material superiority and the best besieger on your side, as the fortifications were done by the best fortifier.

[Fire Golem]

If 130,000 is a decent sized Legion, 120,000 is a decent sized Legion too.

[Azorius]

If 130,000 is a decent sized Legion, 120,000 is a decent sized Legion too.

I...no, it is okay. That is merely a matter of perspective. After all, SW actually reached 130k during later years of Crusade, so I have thought it would be more...appropriate if BA has comparable number. 

[Arkangilos]

Plus, I could be wrong, but isn't 120,000 the muster for Signus? IIRC, FW said that there were *some* that weren't at Signus (but it wasn't much).

 

 

If 130,000 is a decent sized Legion, 120,000 is a decent sized Legion too.

I...no, it is okay. That is merely a matter of perspective. After all, SW actually reached 130k during later years of Crusade.

Again, though, their geneseed wasn't as rough or as complex as the Blood Angels.

[Olis]

 

We know the end result of the Heresy and the subsequent Scouring, we also know that the Traitor Legions (and the Dark Angels) lose their homeworlds at one point or another - although most Legions technically had a number of recruitment worlds under their fiefdom. Seeing as any major engagement or reversal can see a Legion decimated (such as the Raven Guard at Isstvan or the Ultramarines at Calth), I'd say the numbers are much less set in stone than you may think. We only get a particular head count at a given point in time (or maybe another if we're lucky). The vagaries of active deployment, attrition and recruitment rates means that the mid-tier 130,000 mark could be relatively meaningless. Well, by 'meaningless' I mean that your guess at approximate strength at a certain time would be as good as anyone else's.

 

That does not matter. Exact figures were already given immediately prior the Heresy. 

 

How exactly does that nullify my point? We know how big the Legions were at the start of the heresy. Fair enough. But the "gross disparity" doesn't actually matter. The rebels lose the war, despite their immediate numerical advantage. As Apologist has pointed out already, it makes the position for the loyalists seem that much more threatened when they are outnumbered, especially so after the crippling opening losses of the war (Isstvan and Calth, again).

[Arkangilos]

Also, the Word Bearers knew well in advance of the Heresy, so they would have built up. The other Traitors were discussing it some time before, so they would have slowed down their bloodier offensives, etc. This was well planned, they would have been doing what they could to boost their numbers.

 

Not to mention that some of the ones that are bigger don't have the tactical and strategic insights of the smaller ones. Like the World Eaters. One BA would easily be worth two World Eaters in the grand scheme of things.

[Fire Golem]

 

If 130,000 is a decent sized Legion, 120,000 is a decent sized Legion too.

 

I...no, it is okay. That is merely a matter of perspective. After all, SW actually reached 130k during later years of Crusade, so I have thought it would be more...appropriate if BA has comparable number.

I guess I do see 120k as a pretty comparable number to 130k.

[Azorius]

 

 

If 130,000 is a decent sized Legion, 120,000 is a decent sized Legion too.

I...no, it is okay. That is merely a matter of perspective. After all, SW actually reached 130k during later years of Crusade, so I have thought it would be more...appropriate if BA has comparable number.

I guess I do see 120k as a pretty comparable number to 130k.

 

Sorry. I will check that. More. Or same at least. 

 

While BA has even more quirky gene-seed than SW, it recruits from more than a single planet. The IXth Legion controls three planetary systems and a protectorate dominion. 

 

Moreover, it seems IXth had been suffered fewer casualties than VIth during the late years of the Crusade. Consequently, I consider peek strength of BA would be larger than SW counterpart. 

[RedFurioso]

Imperial Fists recruited boys literally from everywhere, but always were small, though.

[Azorius]

Imperial Fists recruited boys literally from everywhere, but always were small, though.

And that is one of the greatest ever contrived paradox of Legiones Astartes number.

 

Yes, gene seed of IF has higher rejection rate due to intense pain it caused to the inductees. However they recruit from literally from everywhere they set foots. And they do not fight as wasteful as, let's say, WE, DG, and most of all, IW. 

 

So it would be only reasonable that Imperial Fists have to be as numerous as Iron Warriors, if not the Ultramarines, Word Bearers, and Dark Angels. 

 

But in reality, they only have a scant of 100k Marines.  

[Arkangilos]

 

 

 

 

If 130,000 is a decent sized Legion, 120,000 is a decent sized Legion too.

I...no, it is okay. That is merely a matter of perspective. After all, SW actually reached 130k during later years of Crusade, so I have thought it would be more...appropriate if BA has comparable number.

I guess I do see 120k as a pretty comparable number to 130k.

Sorry. I will check that. More. Or same at least.

 

While BA has even more quirky gene-seed than SW, it recruits from more than a single planet. The IXth Legion controls three planetary systems and a protectorate dominion.

 

Moreover, it seems IXth had been suffered fewer casualties than VIth during the late years of the Crusade. Consequently, I consider peek strength of BA would be larger than SW counterpart.

Do you have evidence for any of this? As far as I am aware we don't have any idea how many casualties the BA sustained compared to others. Also, we know that at least prior to Russ the SW recruited from other worlds, and they too even had their own domains.

 

We also don't know how many recruits the BA brought in from other worlds unless you've managed to find that information somewhere (and I would love a source on that).

 

Not to mention, if I recruit 10 people to your 1, it doesn't make a differences if all but one die in the process. So just because they recruit from more planets doesn't mean they retain the numbers. For all we know they have to have more planets simply to match output of other legions.

[Arkangilos]

Also at the time of prospero the SW only had a total of about 100k, not 130k, and took 75k with them. So they were smaller than the BA

[Azorius]

Also at the time of prospero the SW only had a total of about 100k, not 130k

As I cited, due to severe loss they suffered closing days of the Crusade. 

[Kol Saresk]

We know the end result of the Heresy and the subsequent Scouring, we also know that the Traitor Legions (and the Dark Angels) lose their homeworlds at one point or another - although most Legions technically had a number of recruitment worlds under their fiefdom. Seeing as any major engagement or reversal can see a Legion decimated (such as the Raven Guard at Isstvan or the Ultramarines at Calth), I'd say the numbers are much less set in stone than you may think. We only get a particular head count at a given point in time (or maybe another if we're lucky). The vagaries of active deployment, attrition and recruitment rates means that the mid-tier 130,000 mark could be relatively meaningless. Well, by 'meaningless' I mean that your guess at approximate strength at a certain time would be as good as anyone else's.

Don't forget the scattering of the Night Lords. They lost over a sixth of their number and who knows how much of their fleet. And since they've been further scattered, they're pretty much done as an effective force in say, the same capacity as the Word Bearers or Sons of Horus.

 

So while yes, the Loyalists start out handicapped, they rapidly learn how to use their smaller numbers and then ultimately win the Heresy and the Scouring. The Traitors, kinda never really do as even in 40K, they at least rely on massive numbers of slaves if they can't overwhelm with Traitor Marines.

 

Also. of you're only worrped about the BA numbers, then you need to consider the impact of Signus Prime as it took place before the Heresy started, but lasted a significant amount of time due to time warp.

[Delakar]

I just ran some easy numbers for fun, so lets pretend there were 120000 raven guard before Isstvan so even if they faced 99% casualties they still had 1200 after the fight which is still larger than the 40k legions. Which when compared to the original number is next to nothing. I'm not sure what future engagements they were involved in after that but I have a hard time imagining that they weren't involved in any conflict after Isstvan so they probably lost over half that in future engagements lets go with another 70% they would then have around 360 when all was said and done. For the most part these ~300 would be spread out all over the galaxy.

[Azorius]

 

 

 

 

If 130,000 is a decent sized Legion, 120,000 is a decent sized Legion too.

I...no, it is okay. That is merely a matter of perspective. After all, SW actually reached 130k during later years of Crusade, so I have thought it would be more...appropriate if BA has comparable number.

I guess I do see 120k as a pretty comparable number to 130k.

Sorry. I will check that. More. Or same at least.

 

While BA has even more quirky gene-seed than SW, it recruits from more than a single planet. The IXth Legion controls three planetary systems and a protectorate dominion.

 

Moreover, it seems IXth had been suffered fewer casualties than VIth during the late years of the Crusade. Consequently, I consider peek strength of BA would be larger than SW counterpart.

Do you have evidence for any of this? As far as I am aware we don't have any idea how many casualties the BA sustained compared to others. Also, we know that at least prior to Russ the SW recruited from other worlds, and they too even had their own domains.

 

We also don't know how many recruits the BA brought in from other worlds unless you've managed to find that information somewhere (and I would love a source on that).

 

Not to mention, if I recruit 10 people to your 1, it doesn't make a differences if all but one die in the process. So just because they recruit from more planets doesn't mean they retain the numbers. For all we know they have to have more planets simply to match output of other legions.

 

Firstly, it seems only the Iron Warriors suffered comparable casualties during the closing days of the Crusade. And while prior to Russ VIth indeed recruited from more than one planets, they were one of the smallest Legions due to innate gene seed problems. And since they discovered their father and founded the Fang during the third decade of the Crusade, they only recruited from the Fenris.

 

'How many recruits the BA brought in from other worlds' cannot be known, at least for now. We have to wait release of Black Book Eight.

 

It is very doubtful that the BA rejection rate would be significantly higher than SW; their implantation success rate is already abyssal compared to standard median set by the 1st Legion.