Why numerical discrepancy between Loyalists and Traitors?

[Kol Saresk]

I just ran some easy numbers for fun, so lets pretend there were 120000 raven guard before Isstvan so even if they faced 99% casualties they still had 1200 after the fight which is still larger than the 40k legions. Which when compared to the original number is next to nothing. I'm not sure what future engagements they were involved in after that but I have a hard time imagining that they weren't involved in any conflict after Isstvan so they probably lost over half that in future engagements lets go with another 70% they would then have around 360 when all was said and done. For the most part these ~300 would be spread out all over the galaxy.

You're forgetting their recruitment drive. Just in Deliverance Lost they picked up 2000 Marines in just a few weeks and with their accelerated gene-seed, numbers are easy.

[Arkangilos]

Dude, in the last thread I posted PROOF that the BA rejection rate was WORSE than the SW. And as you said, we have no way to prove their their casualties are any better than SW. But again it doesn't matter. They have a mid tier legion, why does it matter so much that they have 10k more people?

[Arkangilos]

 

 

I just ran some easy numbers for fun, so lets pretend there were 120000 raven guard before Isstvan so even if they faced 99% casualties they still had 1200 after the fight which is still larger than the 40k legions. Which when compared to the original number is next to nothing. I'm not sure what future engagements they were involved in after that but I have a hard time imagining that they weren't involved in any conflict after Isstvan so they probably lost over half that in future engagements lets go with another 70% they would then have around 360 when all was said and done. For the most part these ~300 would be spread out all over the galaxy.

You're forgetting their recruitment drive. Just in Deliverance Lost they picked up 2000 Marines in just a few weeks and with their accelerated gene-seed, numbers are easy.

But don't forget that also damaged their geneseed, and then the scouring happen d so more would die.

[Azorius]

Dude, in the last thread I posted PROOF that the BA rejection rate was WORSE than the SW. And as you said, we have no way to prove their their casualties are any better than SW. But again it doesn't matter. They have a mid tier legion, why does it matter so much that they have 10k more people?

Yeah, I KNOW the fact. However, like I said, it is rather doubtful BA rejection rate would be significantly worse. 

 

And yes, I'm perfectly aware of this discussion is meaningless. I just wish to BA peek strength would be greater than SW peek strength and so loyalists have one more Legion which actually more numerous than some of smaller traitor Legions.

 

Regardless, this is petty and nonproductive debate, so I'm going to be out of this and cease the endless spirals. Thank you for the discussion, anyway, and have a nice day. 

[Arkangilos]

 

 

Dude, in the last thread I posted PROOF that the BA rejection rate was WORSE than the SW. And as you said, we have no way to prove their their casualties are any better than SW. But again it doesn't matter. They have a mid tier legion, why does it matter so much that they have 10k more people?

Yeah, I KNOW the fact. However, like I said, it is rather doubtful BA rejection rate would be significantly worse.

 

And yes, I'm perfectly aware of this discussion is meaningless. I just wish to BA peek strength would be greater than SW peek strength and so loyalists have one more Legion which actually more numerous than some of smaller traitor Legions.

 

Regardless, this is petty and nonproductive debate, so I'm going to be out of this and cease the endless spirals. Thank you for the discussion, anyway, and have a nice day.

1) We have no proof that it wasn't significantly worse.

2) We have no idea what the BA peak was. 120k is only their number at Signus.

3) What we DO know is that Leman Russ was found before Sanguinius (so they had an earlier "stabilizing" moment. Even after Sanguinius was found it was the most difficult, so before then it would have been even worse), giving the SW a head start on recruitment.

[Azorius]

 

 

Dude, in the last thread I posted PROOF that the BA rejection rate was WORSE than the SW. And as you said, we have no way to prove their their casualties are any better than SW. But again it doesn't matter. They have a mid tier legion, why does it matter so much that they have 10k more people?

Yeah, I KNOW the fact. However, like I said, it is rather doubtful BA rejection rate would be significantly worse.

 

And yes, I'm perfectly aware of this discussion is meaningless. I just wish to BA peek strength would be greater than SW peek strength and so loyalists have one more Legion which actually more numerous than some of smaller traitor Legions.

 

Regardless, this is petty and nonproductive debate, so I'm going to be out of this and cease the endless spirals. Thank you for the discussion, anyway, and have a nice day.

1) We have no proof that it wasn't significantly worse.

2) We have no idea what the BA peak was. 120k is only their number at Signus.

3) What we DO know is that Leman Russ was found before Sanguinius (so they had an earlier "stabilizing" moment. Even after Sanguinius was found it was the most difficult, so before then it would have been even worse), giving the SW a head start on recruitment.

 

Just one more question: according to Lexicanum, 120,000 figure was given at the prologue Melchior, during the late years of the Crusade, extermination of xenos Nephilim, not Signus. I'm currently not available to get my hand on the book. So would you mind if I ask to you cite it?

 

And if 120,000 figure is indeed Blood Angels mustered at Singus to conduct campaign, then it proves my point unequivocally - Retribution explicitly states like the below:

 

"The Blood Angels had been ordered to muster at the Nartaba System and from there to deploy to Sign us Prime to crush a major recidivist uprising. Several thousand Legionaries never arrived there however, some serving as Lamentii honour guardians watching over silent battlefields wherever the Legion had shed its blood while others simply never reached Nartaba, their vessels cast far and wide upon the tides of the Warp when the Ruinstorm struck."

 

Furthermore, garrisons on Baal is 9,000+ strong, and Lord Captain Morrachi's 78th Expeditionary fleet could not returned in time due to machinations of the traitors. 

[Arkangilos]

Ah, probably right there (and I mentioned that they had a few not show up).

 

Good point on when the number was given though. It's been ages since I've read Fear to Tread.

[Azorius]

Ah, probably right there (and I mentioned that they had a few not show up).

 

Good point on when the number was given though. It's been ages since I've read Fear to Tread.

May I ask you meaning of 'probably right there'? 

[Arkangilos]

That I was wrong about 120k being at Signus. I was admitting I made a mistake.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Also, bear in mind that the loyalists got most of the "specialist" Legions that where not suited to grinding, attrition-based warfare. Legions like the Raven Guard, Space Wolves and White Scars.

 

The Traitors got the Legions that where built and suited to grinding down any foe, including Astartes. Also Istvaan was a complete one-sided massacre that crippled the Salamanders and Raven Guard, leaving the Iron hands leaderless and broken.

 

Those three legions where basicly out of the game from this point. Sure they played a small role, hit and run raids and harrassment missions but could play no significant part in the rebellion after Istvaan.

Calth gutted the Ultramarines and the ruin storm kept what was left from playing a part and the Wolves where led a merry little dance before being hammered at Yarant.

 

Horus was the Warmaster and he earned that title. The Heresy has always been a tale of Horus out fighting, out thinking and playing the loyalists for fools. Only reason he lost was because he ran out of time and had to gamble rather than sticking to his script.

 

This is something that can't be down played, Horus was the better man and he created a war in which he had the advantage and kept it.

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

When it comes to numbers what happens when ships go missing in the warp? Are they counted as MIA and not part of the overall legion numbers or maintained as part of it's active total?

[Xenith]

Read The first Heretic and Betrayer.

 

The traitor legions are larger because they knew there would be a civil war so increased recruitment.

 

The loyalists didn't so carried on as normal.

[Hergrmir]

Horus was the Warmaster and he earned that title. The Heresy has always been a tale of Horus out fighting, out thinking and playing the loyalists for fools. Only reason he lost was because he ran out of time and had to gamble rather than sticking to his script.

 

This is something that can't be down played, Horus was the better man and he created a war in which he had the advantage and kept it.

This is worth emphasising, but I'd add the caveat that Horus, evidently, was ready to fight the war he planned and not the war he got. The ruinstorm evidently didn't shatter or slow the Ultramarines as much as he wished, Terra turned out to be a harder nut to crack (quite possibly hindered by Fulgrim and the EC just going nuts instead of doing anything operationally useful), and the noose was drawing tight. It's also evidently true that at least some of the Isstvaan survivors and the Ultramarines survived and adapted where they were expected not to, and the White Scars did land on the loyalist side, which beforehand nobody would have guessed one way or the other. Alphas playing secret pseudo-fifth column didn't help either.

 

None of that is to deny to Horus' primacy, but it does bear mentioning that at low points he posited Sanguinius might have been the better pick, and after his turn he did realise he got more of the broken and the frayed on his side than he'd have liked.

[Farseer Anath'lan]

These numbers before or after the purging's that occurred in the Traitor Legions?

 

'Cause if before, even if 'only' 15-20% are lost (either purged, or killed while purging), numbers start to equalise a bit.

[Azorius]

These numbers before or after the purging's that occurred in the Traitor Legions?

 

'Cause if before, even if 'only' 15-20% are lost (either purged, or killed while purging), numbers start to equalise a bit.

Then Isstvan, Signus and Calth. 

[Azorius]

Read The first Heretic and Betrayer.

 

The traitor legions are larger because they knew there would be a civil war so increased recruitment.

 

The loyalists didn't so carried on as normal.

I had read both. However, that is mostly applied on Word Bearers, and perhaps SoH, in a lesser extend. And Heresy or not, WB had already been one of the largest Legion. 

 

In contrast, Iron Warriors lost a fourth of Legion during the extermination of Hrudd, and in spite of increased recruitment drive in preparation of Heresy, they could not recover their original number, just as Space Wolves depleted from 130k to 100k in closing years of the Crusade. 

 

In case of NL, they forcefully recruited from every planet they conquered since destruction of their homeworld, but that was not to prepare heresy; they were already renegade decades before onset of the Heresy. 

[Azorius]

Also, bear in mind that the loyalists got most of the "specialist" Legions that where not suited to grinding, attrition-based warfare. Legions like the Raven Guard, Space Wolves and White Scars.

 

The Traitors got the Legions that where built and suited to grinding down any foe, including Astartes. Also Istvaan was a complete one-sided massacre that crippled the Salamanders and Raven Guard, leaving the Iron hands leaderless and broken.

 

Those three legions where basicly out of the game from this point. Sure they played a small role, hit and run raids and harrassment missions but could play no significant part in the rebellion after Istvaan.

Calth gutted the Ultramarines and the ruin storm kept what was left from playing a part and the Wolves where led a merry little dance before being hammered at Yarant.

 

Horus was the Warmaster and he earned that title. The Heresy has always been a tale of Horus out fighting, out thinking and playing the loyalists for fools. Only reason he lost was because he ran out of time and had to gamble rather than sticking to his script.

 

This is something that can't be down played, Horus was the better man and he created a war in which he had the advantage and kept it.

I think it should go on the other way round; loyalists got most of 'generalist' Legions - such as Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, Iron Hands, Ultramarines and Salamanders.

 

Whereas traitors largely comprised of specialist Legions - Iron Warriors, Night Lords, World Eaters, Death Guard, Alpha Legion. Only Sons of Horus and Word Bearers are true 'all-rounder' in conventional sense on traitors side. 

 

And while 'generalist', it is rather explicitly stated that Emperors Children and Thousand Sons are scathingly unsuitable to conduct grinding, attrition-based warfare. Conversely, while 'specialist', grinding, attrition-based warfare is bread and butter of Iron Warriors, and Space Wolves and World Eaters attrition rate is always extremely high. 

 

So that is not really clear-cut dichotomy as you suppose. 

[Brother Captain Kezef]

 

Also, bear in mind that the loyalists got most of the "specialist" Legions that where not suited to grinding, attrition-based warfare. Legions like the Raven Guard, Space Wolves and White Scars.

 

The Traitors got the Legions that where built and suited to grinding down any foe, including Astartes. Also Istvaan was a complete one-sided massacre that crippled the Salamanders and Raven Guard, leaving the Iron hands leaderless and broken.

 

Those three legions where basicly out of the game from this point. Sure they played a small role, hit and run raids and harrassment missions but could play no significant part in the rebellion after Istvaan.

Calth gutted the Ultramarines and the ruin storm kept what was left from playing a part and the Wolves where led a merry little dance before being hammered at Yarant.

 

Horus was the Warmaster and he earned that title. The Heresy has always been a tale of Horus out fighting, out thinking and playing the loyalists for fools. Only reason he lost was because he ran out of time and had to gamble rather than sticking to his script.

 

This is something that can't be down played, Horus was the better man and he created a war in which he had the advantage and kept it.

I think it should go on the other way round; loyalists got most of 'generalist' Legions - such as Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, Iron Hands, Ultramarines and Salamanders.

 

Whereas traitors largely comprised of specialist Legions - Iron Warriors, Night Lords, World Eaters, Death Guard, Alpha Legion. Only Sons of Horus and Word Bearers are true 'all-rounder' in conventional sense on traitors side. 

 

And while 'generalist', it is rather explicitly stated that Emperors Children and Thousand Sons are scathingly unsuitable to conduct grinding, attrition-based warfare. Conversely, while 'specialist', grinding, attrition-based warfare is bread and butter of Iron Warriors, and Space Wolves and World Eaters attrition rate is always extremely high. 

 

So that is not really clear-cut dichotomy as you suppose. 

 

 

Inferno does make it clear that the Wolves where NOT an attrition force, they where a shock assault force that suffered if they didn't get a quick win. Thier nature meant that casaulties mounted if the initial assault did not succeed. Taking severe casaulties in attrition is the very definition of a force not suited to it.

 

If you look at the Traitors, they got the Iron Warriors and Deathguard as anvils, legions built from the ground up to grind down an opponent.

 

SoH and WB provided the numbers and meat. TS where not a factor at all in the heresy till the siege of Terra.

 

It is a bit of a stretch to call salamanders and fists "generalist" while declaring Death Guard "specialist".

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

 

And yes, I'm perfectly aware of this discussion is meaningless.

 

I'm glad we're both in agreement.

 

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