Orbital bombardment of prospero

[AceofAllTradez]

Now that Inferno has been out for awhile now I'm curious as to what everyone thinks about the motivation behind Russ's orbital bombardment of Prospero. At that point the censure host met no resistance, so why would he choose to resort to this tactic?

[Brother Pheidias]

Most likely expecting a trap, plus it being standard operating procedure?

[Kais Klip]

Pretty much that, a healthy dose of Trust not the Witch, Nuke the Witch before they went all Harry Can't Cast a Spell If You Disable His Hand. 

 

But, throne forbid you were looking for some actual discussion: yes, it was SOP, and yes, the fleet was expecting a devious, devious trap, but also a general bombardment has some benefits for the attacking force in the form of panicking the civilians to murder any organised military movement, plus leveling flat a suitable beachhead from which to establish a forward operating zone (like they did), and once again, to prevent any devious Tzeentchian trickery. Can't emphasise that part enough.

 

The whole decision was probably mostly nerves. 

[Brother Captain Kezef]

It was rage for the most part. A direct quote from Inferno after Leman Russ' attempts to communicate with the surface and give his brother a chance to surrender and explain himself:

 

"Yet, there was no answer. The fleet waited
as Valdor entreated for further time with
Russ on behalf of the accused Primarch to
await a reply, but as Russ' fury steadily grew
and as the ships of the fleet sat idle in space,
still there was no answer. After almost a
standard hour without word, neither to ask
forgiveness of to threaten resistance, nor
even to acknowledge the fleet's presence,
Leman Russ called an end to the efforts at
diplomacy. Incensed that Magnus would
offer such an insult to his own brother, Russ
gave the word and unleashed the firepower
of the assembled Censure Host's fleet against
the helpless planet below."

 

We know that after Russ recieved Horus' message and the Censure Host changed from a retrieval op to a mission of annihilation, the Wolves loaded up with Exterminatus ordnance. We don't know what exactly was in the message or what drove Russ to these lengths. Obviously Horus gave Russ a pretty damning reason to go all out on Prospero

[Jackalwolf]

Maybe Horus told the truth. That's the best way to make a lie be believed. The sons were lost to the imperium as soon as Magnus did a pact with the Chaos gods.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Maybe Horus told the truth. That's the best way to make a lie be believed. The sons were lost to the imperium as soon as Magnus did a pact with the Chaos gods.

 

QFT

[Athrawes]

From my understanding, the Orbital bombardment was due to Russ' Pride/arrogance. Everything he does is grand and over the top to make a show of it, to build up the reputation of the Wolves, and being ignored in his "moment of Triumph" over the brother he hates most was too much for him to bear.

 

This was the first moment that Russ betrayed the Emperor and disregarded his specific orders. 

 

Yes Horus changed the orders, but honestly, Horus doesn't have the authority to countermand the Emperors command. That is why the book makes such a big deal about the animosity between Valdor and Russ over the purpose of the Censure host. Valdor was always trying to carry out the Emperors orders, Russ let arrogance blind him and so murdered the only other person who could have manned the great work and allowed the Emperor Autonomy from the webway war.

[Baluc]

From my understanding, the Orbital bombardment was due to Russ' Pride/arrogance. Everything he does is grand and over the top to make a show of it, to build up the reputation of the Wolves, and being ignored in his "moment of Triumph" over the brother he hates most was too much for him to bear.

 

This was the first moment that Russ betrayed the Emperor and disregarded his specific orders. 

 

Yes Horus changed the orders, but honestly, Horus doesn't have the authority to countermand the Emperors command. That is why the book makes such a big deal about the animosity between Valdor and Russ over the purpose of the Censure host. Valdor was always trying to carry out the Emperors orders, Russ let arrogance blind him and so murdered the only other person who could have manned the great work and allowed the Emperor Autonomy from the webway war.

 

Not going to absolve the SW of needless carnage here... but "He's The Warmaster to you" -  Gavriel Loken. The whole point of Horus is to give orders to his Brothers, trusted by the All-father himself to oversee the legions in the universe. And, to be honest if they weren't expecting hostility the Censor host would be a bunch of idiots. Legion of no, the TS are just Astartes they can always make more with Magnus chained on Terra, under the eye of the All-father. The only thing that matters in Magnus. The people of Prospero, the industry, the Legionaries are all replaceable.  The bunring of Prospero only seems like a waste in hindsight, at the time it was the most pressing issue facing the Imperium. With that amount of responsibility resting on Russ shoulders extreme measures are well within reason. 

 

Moralistic arguments are fine and dandy but the SW are by design built for violence, if the intent was a measured, diplomatic, open approach he would have sent Guilliman or Dorn.

[Sigismund229]

From my understanding, the Orbital bombardment was due to Russ' Pride/arrogance. Everything he does is grand and over the top to make a show of it, to build up the reputation of the Wolves, and being ignored in his "moment of Triumph" over the brother he hates most was too much for him to bear.

 

This was the first moment that Russ betrayed the Emperor and disregarded his specific orders. 

 

Yes Horus changed the orders, but honestly, Horus doesn't have the authority to countermand the Emperors command. That is why the book makes such a big deal about the animosity between Valdor and Russ over the purpose of the Censure host. Valdor was always trying to carry out the Emperors orders, Russ let arrogance blind him and so murdered the only other person who could have manned the great work and allowed the Emperor Autonomy from the webway war.

Horus was the Warmaster, appointed to act and speak for the Emperor when He was on Terra. We know that he's turned traitor by this stage and is trying to weaken the Imperium but Russ doesn't. If Horus gives him an order, that order might as well have come from the Emperor himself. It's not his job to scrutinize every single order he's given. If he is given an order from the Emperor's chosen Warmaster, he follows it without question. 

 

He's not making a show of it. He's been given orders to destroy Prospero and the Thousand Sons, kill Magnus. He's making sure and going for overkill in the process, as the consequences of him getting it wrong don't bear thinking about from his perspective. So he's hitting Prospero too hard to make sure that he accomplishes his given task rather than not hit hard enough and allow the Thousand Sons and Magnus to escape and wreak havoc. 

[Athrawes]

That is certainly an odd to claim that the Warmaster has the authority to countermand a direct order from the Emperor, seeing as the Warmasters authority is Derived from the higher authority of the Emperor.

 

On pretty much any matter it can be assumed that the Warmaster speaks with the Emperors authority, but not when that voice contradicts an explicit command by the Emperor. 

 

If Horus really had that power, then Valdor should have been fine with Russ following Horus' Orders. As it happens, Valdor had serious concerns over Russ'  disregarding the Emperors direct command in favor of that which came from Horus.

 

There is no way to describe the Oribital Bombardment as being sanctioned by the Emperor.

 

Russ had a choice when Horus changed his orders, Be loyal to his father, or be loyal to Horus who told him he could do what he wanted to, If Russ was a dutiful son, he should have sought clarification, but he didn't (likely because the changed orders were offering him the motive to do that which he relished, punishing Magnus)

 

The Orbital bombardment wasn't an act of extreme loyalty to the Emperor by Russ, it was an act of Petty revenge for Russ' slighted honour, sanctioned by the Warmaster, against the Emperors wishes.

[Runefyre]

From my understanding, the Orbital bombardment was due to Russ' Pride/arrogance. Everything he does is grand and over the top to make a show of it, to build up the reputation of the Wolves, and being ignored in his "moment of Triumph" over the brother he hates most was too much for him to bear.

 

This was the first moment that Russ betrayed the Emperor and disregarded his specific orders. 

 

Yes Horus changed the orders, but honestly, Horus doesn't have the authority to countermand the Emperors command. That is why the book makes such a big deal about the animosity between Valdor and Russ over the purpose of the Censure host. Valdor was always trying to carry out the Emperors orders, Russ let arrogance blind him and so murdered the only other person who could have manned the great work and allowed the Emperor Autonomy from the webway war.

Magnus's deal with Tzeentch not-with-standing. Wrath of Magnus makes it clear Magnus was doomed to reap what he sowed with Tzeentch, but the Space Wolves hastened the consequences set in motion even before Horus became Warmaster. Magnus thought he was loyal but was in fact blinded by his own hubris.

 

That is certainly an odd to claim that the Warmaster has the authority to countermand a direct order from the Emperor, seeing as the Warmasters authority is Derived from the higher authority of the Emperor.

 

On pretty much any matter it can be assumed that the Warmaster speaks with the Emperors authority, but not when that voice contradicts an explicit command by the Emperor. 

 

If Horus really had that power, then Valdor should have been fine with Russ following Horus' Orders. As it happens, Valdor had serious concerns over Russ'  disregarding the Emperors direct command in favor of that which came from Horus.

 

There is no way to describe the Oribital Bombardment as being sanctioned by the Emperor.

 

Russ had a choice when Horus changed his orders, Be loyal to his father, or be loyal to Horus who told him he could do what he wanted to, If Russ was a dutiful son, he should have sought clarification, but he didn't (likely because the changed orders were offering him the motive to do that which he relished, punishing Magnus)

 

The Orbital bombardment wasn't an act of extreme loyalty to the Emperor by Russ, it was an act of Petty revenge for Russ' slighted honour, sanctioned by the Warmaster, against the Emperors wishes.

I haven't read that part of Inferno yet, but does it mention whether Valdor received the message from Horus as well as Russ?

[Baluc]

That is certainly an odd to claim that the Warmaster has the authority to countermand a direct order from the Emperor, seeing as the Warmasters authority is Derived from the higher authority of the Emperor.

 

On pretty much any matter it can be assumed that the Warmaster speaks with the Emperors authority, but not when that voice contradicts an explicit command by the Emperor. 

 

If Horus really had that power, then Valdor should have been fine with Russ following Horus' Orders. As it happens, Valdor had serious concerns over Russ'  disregarding the Emperors direct command in favor of that which came from Horus.

 

There is no way to describe the Oribital Bombardment as being sanctioned by the Emperor.

 

Russ had a choice when Horus changed his orders, Be loyal to his father, or be loyal to Horus who told him he could do what he wanted to, If Russ was a dutiful son, he should have sought clarification, but he didn't (likely because the changed orders were offering him the motive to do that which he relished, punishing Magnus)

 

The Orbital bombardment wasn't an act of extreme loyalty to the Emperor by Russ, it was an act of Petty revenge for Russ' slighted honour, sanctioned by the Warmaster, against the Emperors wishes.

 

You are assuming Russ' orders were. "Bring back Magnus", and not "Bring back Magnus unless..." As we also don't know what Horus' message fully included it could have simply have been a more complete picture of how far Magnus had gone. If Horus only expounded on the ritual Magnus used to breach the webway that alone would be enough to set the tone for Russ and the censure host. Like any emergency circumstances change, and Russ could reasonably expect that updated orders could come from The Warmaster Horus, a man he had known for 200 years. But again, the argument can at this point only be under who's authority did Russ execute Magnus. The fate of Prospero and ultimately the Thousand Son only ranges from unimportant, to unfortunate.

[Jareddm]

That is certainly an odd to claim that the Warmaster has the authority to countermand a direct order from the Emperor, seeing as the Warmasters authority is Derived from the higher authority of the Emperor.

 

On pretty much any matter it can be assumed that the Warmaster speaks with the Emperors authority, but not when that voice contradicts an explicit command by the Emperor. 

 

If Horus really had that power, then Valdor should have been fine with Russ following Horus' Orders. As it happens, Valdor had serious concerns over Russ'  disregarding the Emperors direct command in favor of that which came from Horus.

 

There is no way to describe the Oribital Bombardment as being sanctioned by the Emperor.

 

Russ had a choice when Horus changed his orders, Be loyal to his father, or be loyal to Horus who told him he could do what he wanted to, If Russ was a dutiful son, he should have sought clarification, but he didn't (likely because the changed orders were offering him the motive to do that which he relished, punishing Magnus)

 

The Orbital bombardment wasn't an act of extreme loyalty to the Emperor by Russ, it was an act of Petty revenge for Russ' slighted honour, sanctioned by the Warmaster, against the Emperors wishes.

The thing is, as far as Russ is concerned, it was not a direct order from the Emperor.  It's an order relayed through Valdor.  As far as Valdor was concerned, that order consisted of two things, "Escort Magnus back to Terra.  Russ is in charge of the mission."

 

Now having read the events in Inferno, my understanding is that Valdor was to meet up with Russ at Beta Garmon to tell him of the mission.  However, because of the favoritism of the warp, Horus found out about the mission and sent his own emissaries to Beta Garmon, beating Valdor to Russ by over a month.  By the time Valdor showed up, Russ and the legion had been preparing for a mission to kill Magnus for over five weeks.  If anything, it was Valdor who was coming with the change in orders.  It doesn't help Valdor's case that part of those orders are, "Russ is in overall command of this mission.  Obey him."  Now Valdor fought with Russ about the mission objectives for the entire length of the trip to Prospero, although it doesn't go into detail on those specific arguments, but clearly this wasn't something he was going to stand for, because as far as Valdor was concerned, it WAS a direct order from the Emperor.  Neither side of this argument is in a position they like.  Russ has overall control of the mission and original orders from Horus, who speaks with the voice of the Emperor.  Valdor has supposedly a change in orders, but does he technically have the jurisdiction to speak with the voice of the Emperor the same as Horus?  I don't think it's 100% clear. 

[AceofAllTradez]

 

From my understanding, the Orbital bombardment was due to Russ' Pride/arrogance. Everything he does is grand and over the top to make a show of it, to build up the reputation of the Wolves, and being ignored in his "moment of Triumph" over the brother he hates most was too much for him to bear.

 

This was the first moment that Russ betrayed the Emperor and disregarded his specific orders. 

 

Yes Horus changed the orders, but honestly, Horus doesn't have the authority to countermand the Emperors command. That is why the book makes such a big deal about the animosity between Valdor and Russ over the purpose of the Censure host. Valdor was always trying to carry out the Emperors orders, Russ let arrogance blind him and so murdered the only other person who could have manned the great work and allowed the Emperor Autonomy from the webway war.

Magnus's deal with Tzeentch not-with-standing. Wrath of Magnus makes it clear Magnus was doomed to reap what he sowed with Tzeentch, but the Space Wolves hastened the consequences set in motion even before Horus became Warmaster. Magnus thought he was loyal but was in fact blinded by his own hubris.

 

That is certainly an odd to claim that the Warmaster has the authority to countermand a direct order from the Emperor, seeing as the Warmasters authority is Derived from the higher authority of the Emperor.

 

On pretty much any matter it can be assumed that the Warmaster speaks with the Emperors authority, but not when that voice contradicts an explicit command by the Emperor. 

 

If Horus really had that power, then Valdor should have been fine with Russ following Horus' Orders. As it happens, Valdor had serious concerns over Russ'  disregarding the Emperors direct command in favor of that which came from Horus.

 

There is no way to describe the Oribital Bombardment as being sanctioned by the Emperor.

 

Russ had a choice when Horus changed his orders, Be loyal to his father, or be loyal to Horus who told him he could do what he wanted to, If Russ was a dutiful son, he should have sought clarification, but he didn't (likely because the changed orders were offering him the motive to do that which he relished, punishing Magnus)

 

The Orbital bombardment wasn't an act of extreme loyalty to the Emperor by Russ, it was an act of Petty revenge for Russ' slighted honour, sanctioned by the Warmaster, against the Emperors wishes.

I haven't read that part of Inferno yet, but does it mention whether Valdor received the message from Horus as well as Russ?

 

No Valdor doesn't get the message it was between Horus an Russ only.

[Jackalwolf]

I think it's safe to say if Russ would have sanctioned Magnus immediately after he broke the edict of Nikea the first time or at any point before Davin, the Emperor would not have been bound to the golden throne, the webway project not destroyed and the Heresy would have had altogether a different outcome.

 

Russ wasn't wrong in killing Magnus and destroying Prospero. He was just too late.

 

The betrayal of Horus is insignificant compared to the mess Magnus caused.

[Sigismund229]

That is certainly an odd to claim that the Warmaster has the authority to countermand a direct order from the Emperor, seeing as the Warmasters authority is Derived from the higher authority of the Emperor.

 

On pretty much any matter it can be assumed that the Warmaster speaks with the Emperors authority, but not when that voice contradicts an explicit command by the Emperor.

 

If Horus really had that power, then Valdor should have been fine with Russ following Horus' Orders. As it happens, Valdor had serious concerns over Russ' disregarding the Emperors direct command in favor of that which came from Horus.

 

There is no way to describe the Oribital Bombardment as being sanctioned by the Emperor.

 

Russ had a choice when Horus changed his orders, Be loyal to his father, or be loyal to Horus who told him he could do what he wanted to, If Russ was a dutiful son, he should have sought clarification, but he didn't (likely because the changed orders were offering him the motive to do that which he relished, punishing Magnus)

 

The Orbital bombardment wasn't an act of extreme loyalty to the Emperor by Russ, it was an act of Petty revenge for Russ' slighted honour, sanctioned by the Warmaster, against the Emperors wishes.

It's also worth bearing in mind that Russ gave Magnus a chance to surrender, even after his orders had been changed by Horus. That doesn't seem like the kind of thing he would do if he was out for Magnus' head and only Magnus' head. Why would he continue, even at the last minute, to give Magnus the opportunity to lay down his arms and surrender if he just wanted to punish Magnus?

 

If he was solely out for vengeance, he would have charged in guns blazing and immediately bombarded Prospero. He didn't. He threw Magnus that lifeline even as he prepared to bombard and assault Prospero. In doing so he gave Magnus and his TS, had they genuinely turned traitor(which, as we all know, they hadn't), more time to prepare their defences against his assault meaning that his throwing Magnus that lifeline could well have led to greater VIth legion casualties. He left it an hour before concluding he wasn't going to even get a response, which is both an insult and a challenge.

 

So he then went full on overkill at Prospero for reasons which I outlined previously. He's given Magnus the last chance that he can with what he believes his orders to be. Now he needs to burn Prospero and make sure he doesn't get it wrong so he'll utterly annihilate Prospero rather than risk that.

[Plaguecaster]

What I would really love to see would be if BL/ FW ever did a conversation between Russ and the Emperor before Russ left Terra after returning from prospero. Maybe that was the reason Russ left and wasn't there for the siege his father didn't want him there (that's if he wasn't too busy with the throne and webway)

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I think people are forgetting that the EMPEROR's orders had the line "by any means neccesary"

 

It's always dangerous to add that clause to an order, it gives carte blanche. Russ was within his remit, otherwise why wasn't he sanctioned post Prospero? Moraly his actions are as dubious as Dresden but legaly and by his orders he was justified to take any measure he deemed required.

 

The Wolves even wrote the "Omega Codex" after Prospero, a textbook for taking on Legiones Astartes and the Emperor refused to sanction Russ despite many Primarchs demanding it.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Ok, to settle the argument, here is the Emperor's writ, word for word, as shown in Inferno:

 

"By the word and will of the master of mankind, imperator, imperatoris, Terra regnum,

 

It is hereby decreed that Magnus, Primarch of the XVth Legiones Astartes, be brought forth in censure and bound by law to stand before the throne imperial of Terra, there to answer for his actions and those of his gene sons.

 

To this end is Leman Russ, Primarch of the VIth Legiones Astartes, so charged upon the deliverace of his brother, by any means he may find needful, without limit in law, sanction or imposition of attainder, unto the limitless void and to the last day.

 

So it is written, so it shall be."

 

It's pretty clear Russ was given authority to do whatever he damn well wanted in pursuit of his mission, including a full orbital bombardment.

[Laughingman]

Kind of assumed that the Emperor wanted Magnus alive to power the golden throne while he went into the webway an attempted to fix it. If that was his intent then he did a poor job conveying that to Valdor, Krole and Russ.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Kind of assumed that the Emperor wanted Magnus alive to power the golden throne while he went into the webway an attempted to fix it. If that was his intent then he did a poor job conveying that to Valdor, Krole and Russ.

 

Events on the ground went out of control. Nobody knows what message Horus delivered, what he accused Magnus of.

 

The 6th had long been given the role of cleaning up mess left by the terrors of old night so it's a good bet they knew what rogue sorcery could and would lead to.

 

You can not micro-manage these things and the Emperor never planned for or knew of Horus' interference.

[Jackalwolf]

Regardless of the Emperor's orders, the second you start a fight with the 1ks, even if it was a nuanced and surgical strike to minimise casualties and capture Magnus, the 1ks will resort to sorcery, open the doors to Tzeentch and then it's pointless what the original mission is, Chaos taint must be purged.

[Sandlemad]

Inferno goes pretty far in deliberately complicating how absolute the burning was and how/when exactly it changed from 'escort Magnus' to 'kill everything'.

 

- Valdor and the Terran contingent were officially a ceremonial honour guard but Valdor brought with him not just anti-psyker SoS but also large-scale crowd suppression/extermination weapons in the form of the Ordo Sinister.

 

- Horus played on Russ's hatred of Magnus to turn the mission into a wipeout but Russ still gave Magnus a chance by trying to communicate via Hawser.

 

- Russ launched the orbital bombardment but still only deployed limited forces initially, partly to keep it as an astartes affair but partly to claim or capture Magnus.

 

- Valdor launches his troops against Russ's orders but Russ doesn't actually have a problem with it as the situation on the ground changes. Some VI legion forces do the same, while some follow the letter of the law and stay in orbit.

 

It's purposefully made into a complicated subject. There are a few fixed turning points: Russ receiving Horus's orders (whatever exactly they were), the orbital bombardment, the beginning of the flesh-change, the appearance of the Canis Vertex howling with warpfire, but the feelings of the leading characters of the censure hosts at these moments are kept deliberately opaque.

 

Look at the acrimonious debates surrounding the intent and exact sequence of events behind real life historical events, say the firebombing of Dresden. What were the stated motives, what was planned, who ordered what, how did the plan change, were orders actually followed, what found its way into the history books. Inferno definitely has a stronger non-omniscient historical approach than previous FW books and that itself colours what's described.

 

Think of the Solar imperial army forces Valdor brought (and those which Horus sponsored). The text notes that some of them had cultural distaste for psykers or experience of fighting them. Does this mean that they were deliberately chosen over other army forces in case things turned bloody? Or were they just the closest forces at hand to the censure host, and the in-universe author (presumably Keeler) is looking back and seeing patterns that were not necessarily there or not foremost in the minds of the commanders?