The Might of the Custodes (fluff discussion)

[Spiritual Liege]

I think they should be superior to a space marine, both physically and by training. Their current rules, however, are a bit op, I agree. They should have brought the power level down a bit, but just better trained Astartes? Nah.

[b1soul]

Again...no one thinks it's a good idea to reduce Custodes to "better-trained" marines. Strange that this point keeps getting raised.

 

Even under Abnett's conception, Custodes are somewhat larger and more powerful than marines, with fundamental mental differences.

 

EDIT: Also to clarify, I'm not saying any authour (Abnett, ADB, McNeill, or Bligh) got it wrong or messed up prior canon.

 

40K canon is constantly evolving and canon policy seems to be everything is canon.

 

My question is...what's your subjective preference, as a 40k fan, as to the power difference between Custodes and Astartes?

 

What past portrayal do you subjectively like the most? Or do you not really like any of them...and you have your original ideas?

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Personaly I prefer Inferno's portrayal (the background rather than the rules).

 

The Custodes are very different, arising from a more detailed, tailored creation. It's like comparing a hand forged katana from the 15th/16th century to the mass-produced army, showato, katanas of WW2.

 

Both will do the job, but the original, hand forged, water quenched blade will be better and last longer.

 

Put both into the press of mass battle and they will break sooner or later.

[b1soul]

The traditional, Masamune Katana vs. WWII, Showato Katana is a great analogy

 

That said, I feel like the current difference is like that between a traditional Katana and this infomercial "Katana":

 

 

One Custodes could break dozens of "cheap knock-off" Astartes.

[Marshal Rohr]

That's silly though. This is a unvierse where guns still exist. An unarmored marine shooting an unarmored custode in the head should kill him the same as it would any genetically modified human. But the rules and 'special genetics' don't reflect that.

[b1soul]

I found it a bit silly when 6,000 TSons decided to charge 500 Custodes...instead of laying down massed firepower at range

[TheTrans]

Yeah they really should of shot them to death....also don't forget the 2000 sisters....

[Azorius]

I'm perfectly satisfied with Inferno's portrayal of them. That stuff is superb. 

[b1soul]

Yeah they really should of shot them to death....also don't forget the 2000 sisters....

I'm wondering how SoS are able to hang in melee with Astartes...if SoS are unaugmented.

 

Wouldn't they be too slow?

[Icarus1138]

It really comes down to three aspects of quality.

 

1. Equipment. Custodian equipment is far superior, I don't think any of us disagree here.

 

2. Training. Honestly, I don't think Custodians having superior training makes much sense. When exactly are Marines not training? When they aren't training it's often because they're on an actual battlefield. I'd argue that the only way Custodes could keep up with Marine experience is to have squads of Custodes rotate out to crusade forces for combat experience. The important difference here is the nature of the training. Marines have to make time to train in battlefield tactics, logistics, boarding, piloting, fortification engineering, squad/platoon/company/chapter level maneuvers, orbital assault stuff, and who knows what else. Custodes can reasonably cut a lot of that out of their schedule and replace it with other things or just increase their time spent on blade-work. 

 

One potential explanation for better training, however: perhaps their genetic enhancements include greater mental improvements, allowing them to learn faster. Just a thought.

 

3. Genetics. I'd honestly prefer to see Custodians with slightly improved performance, but much greater refinement. It would be more interesting to see warriors 100-125% as strong as a marine, but with the proportions of a large, fit human. Bodyguards that could blend in with nobility at an event, or infiltrate serving staff or mechanical support at a location. This would better fit the Emperor's preference for a civilization built on pure humanity, while emphasizing the relatively crude and blatant enhancements of the Astartes.

[b1soul]

Agreed...big size doesn't really fit the Custodes role as intel gatherers and counter-assassins

 

That said, the Custodes do havr other roles, e.g. the Emperor's bodyguard on the battlefield

 

The Custodes would be trained more like individual assassins than like soldiers who need to operate as a cog within a larger army

 

Their training would be "superior" only in certain areas

[Laughingman]

Its worth noting that the role of Custodes extended beyond simple warriors or bodyguards. They had a whole internal organization called the Ephoroi dedicated to intelligence gathering, counter-intel operations, assassinations, etc. Given that organizations goals "smaller" Custodes likely exist, they just aren't as prevalent as regular Custodes.

[TheTrans]

I believe it blood games the Custodes wore like 'displacement' fields which made them seem like normal humans.

[olsol]

What bout the Pillarstodes? They managed to fend of an enraged Daemon-Magnus... Just saying we should watch out for these guys...

[Dagoth Ur]

What bout the Pillarstodes? They managed to fend of an enraged Daemon-Magnus... Just saying we should watch out for these guys...

Must've been the work of an enemy stand user :p

 

I was actually pleasantly surprised with how much the Custodes struggled in Master of Mankind. They still appeared to be insanely powerful and fast, yet their enemies and their fatigue made the war seem that much more horrid.

[Laughingman]

I believe it blood games the Custodes wore like 'displacement' fields which made them seem like normal humans.

 

I was under the impression it optically covered up the custodes, It still cannot change the physical attributes of the custodes that might blow his cover. For example an inability to use regular human size tableware, sit on regular furniture or chairs, activities expected of people in the courts of Terran nobility that custodes would be infiltrating.

[TheTrans]

 

I believe it blood games the Custodes wore like 'displacement' fields which made them seem like normal humans.

 

I was under the impression it optically covered up the custodes, It still cannot change the physical attributes of the custodes that might blow his cover. For example an inability to use regular human size tableware, sit on regular furniture or chairs, activities expected of people in the courts of Terran nobility that custodes would be infiltrating.

 

I have NFI brother. They where in pretty close proximity to people and everything and the only person that thought that something may of been up was the Lucifer Black which are like uber body guards or some such... I'm sure there will be some hand wavium for and against. 

[b1soul]

That's because the Custodes in that mission didn't have to do the things mentioned

 

The displacement field won't prevent someone from bumoing into you...heck, just shaking someone's hand could be very awkward

[A D-B]

I've been surprised twice by this in the series - first in 'Blood Games' (great story) by how relatively weak the Custodians were, and how powerful they were in Inferno.

 

But in both cases they were exceptional/unusual circumstances, and in the case of 'Blood Games', there's no real evidence beyond a huuuuuuge fan-latching reaction onto a single line about "No one could predict the outcome of a fight between a Space Marine and a Custodian" which was plainly a single line enshrined as sacred by the readership: ignoring that in the very same story, two Custodians face Rogal Dorn down and blatantly think they've got the situation covered.

 

So my surprise had faded by the end of 'Blood Games', because it wasn't all about that earlier line at all.

 

The Custodians, ultimately, spend their lives studying and training endlessly to be ready to kill any threat to the Emperor. They train more, and they study more, than any other living beings. That's interesting, and confers certain advantages, whether genetics comes into play too much or not. But they have the genetic step-up too, so who knows.

 

I've written a fair bit of the Custodians now, and I've done my best to avoid that tedious power level stuff. Everything is about circumstances and individuals, just like a primarch fight, or a scrap between a Fire Warrior and a Guardsman. But that's part of the angle - judging all Custodians by Aquillon, Vendatha, Ra, and Diocletian's standards would be like judging all Space Marines by Abaddon, Sigismund, Sevatar, and Khârn's standards. They're specialists and/or supremely high-ranking officers.

[Memento Of Prospero]

I've been surprised twice by this in the series - first in 'Blood Games' (great story) by how relatively weak the Custodians were, and how powerful they were in Inferno.

 

But in both cases they were exceptional/unusual circumstances, and in the case of 'Blood Games', there's no real evidence beyond a huuuuuuge fan-latching reaction onto a single line about "No one could predict the outcome of a fight between a Space Marine and a Custodian" which was plainly a single line enshrined as sacred by the readership: ignoring that in the very same story, two Custodians face Rogal Dorn down and blatantly think they've got the situation covered.

 

So my surprise had faded by the end of 'Blood Games', because it wasn't all about that earlier line at all.

 

The Custodians, ultimately, spend their lives studying and training endlessly to be ready to kill any threat to the Emperor. They train more, and they study more, than any other living beings. That's interesting, and confers certain advantages, whether genetics comes into play too much or not. But they have the genetic step-up too, so who knows.

 

I've written a fair bit of the Custodians now, and I've done my best to avoid that tedious power level stuff. Everything is about circumstances and individuals, just like a primarch fight, or a scrap between a Fire Warrior and a Guardsman. But that's part of the angle - judging all Custodians by Aquillon, Vendatha, Ra, and Diocletian's standards would be like judging all Space Marines by Abaddon, Sigismund, Sevatar, and Khârn's standards. They're specialists and/or supremely high-ranking officers.

 

And so wisdom cometh, and so wisdom sayeth.

 

Praise the A to the B through the D!

[b1soul]

there's no real evidence beyond a huuuuuuge fan-latching reaction onto a single line about "No one could predict the outcome of a fight between a Space Marine and a Custodian" which was plainly a single line enshrined as sacred by the readership

In all fairness, the readership can only base their views on what's printed on the page

 

ignoring that in the very same story, two Custodians face Rogal Dorn down and blatantly think they've got the situation covered.

I'm not sure that's what they think. It seems they simply refuse to back down, regardless of who's standing in front of them.

 

I think you're claiming a contradiction when the two parts could easily be reconciled, for example:

 

1. Dorn would massacre the two Custodes. The Custodes simply lack a deeply ingrained respect for Dorn (or any other primarchs) and are utterly dedicated to their task, supremely confident against even overwhelming odds.

 

In short, the Custodians would not hesitate to take on Dorn if he were to oppose them...but that doesn't necessarily imply anything about their chances of defeating Dorn.

 

2. In Blood Games, Abnett may view Astartes and Custodes as being relatively closer to primarchs in power.

 

Recall that in Unremembered Empire, Abnett has Guilliman narrowly avoid death at the hands of 10 Alpha Legionnaires inside an enclosed space. A squad of SW draw blood against a blood-crazed Curze. The SW pack leader, Faffnr, astonishes Guilliman with the skill and speed of his axe swing.

 

 

 

Faffnr sighed and swung his axe at the Lion. Guilliman flinched as the blade cut the air beside him. It was a sensationally good strike. Faffnr had betrayed no cues, no hint of muscle tension, no focus of powered plate. The blow had just come. Guilliman wondered if it would have taken him by surprise. He was forced to admit that it might have.

The Lion caught Faffnr’s swing with one hand, blocking the haft with the blade edge millimetres from his face.

 

 

 

It's possible that in Blood Games, Abnett views two elite Custodes (or two elite Astartes, e.g. around Faffnr's ability) as a potential threat to Dorn.

 

So my surprise had faded by the end of 'Blood Games', because it wasn't all about that earlier line at all.

Power level certainly isn't the focus of the story, but that earlier line isn't automatically invalidated by the Custodians' later exchange with Dorn. Far from it...as I've explained, the two are easily reconcilable.

 

I would argue that the earlier line is harder to dismiss because it's stated very plainly, whereas the exchange between the two Custodes and Dorn is more open to interpretation.

 

As a general rule, if it's possible to interpret a part of the text so that another part of the text doesn't have to be thrown out, I'll generally opt for that interpretation.

 

But that's part of the angle - judging all Custodians by Aquillon, Vendatha, Ra, and Diocletian's standards would be like judging all Space Marines by Abaddon, Sigismund, Sevatar, and Khârn's standards. They're specialists and/or supremely high-ranking officers.

Agreed...and I think your Custodes strike a nice balance or sweet spot, if you will.

[A D-B]

 

there's no real evidence beyond a huuuuuuge fan-latching reaction onto a single line about "No one could predict the outcome of a fight between a Space Marine and a Custodian" which was plainly a single line enshrined as sacred by the readership

In all fairness, the readership can only base their views on what's printed on the page

 

ignoring that in the very same story, two Custodians face Rogal Dorn down and blatantly think they've got the situation covered.

I'm not sure that's what they think. It seems they simply refuse to back down, regardless of who's standing in front of them.

 

I suspected that'd be the main defence, but it's also not really what's on the page. Or, rather, not entirely. It definitely conveys their readiness no matter who they're facing, I totally agree. But there's no mention of anything regarding fear, doubt, or anything at all. They're absolutely confident, utterly certain, and there's just as much evidence for them utterly expecting to survive. I'm not saying they 100% think they're going to take down Rogal Dorn and a Tactical Squad (because Duh), but the text also doesn't imply there's any chance they're screwed.

 

That's what I mean. If it goes one way, it has to go the other. There's no answer there - but the readership latched onto 50% of the text as The Answer, and largely ignored the other half, which is a significant loss of context. (Especially, as it's shown, compared with almost every other presentation since.)

 

The even more tedious answer, of course, is that the Custodians' relative strengths weren't known at the time of 'Blood Games'. It was one of the things me, Alan Bligh, and Alan Merrett ended up talking a lot about much later when it came time to decide it, with some really fascinating possibilities that I don't think will ever see the light of day. There was no change or ramping up for sales (Jesus Christ, gang, come on...). It was just a case of an earlier portrayal having very little to go on, and being considered wrong (ish) when it came time to set it in stone.

 

But the good thing about 'Blood Games' is that apart from that one line, the actual text and context can fit in with any presentation since. That's part of Dan's talent, as usual. 

 

EDIT: What a long post to say "Yes, I agree."

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

 

EDIT: What a long post to say "Yes, I agree."

 

 

Force of habit from someone who gets paid by the word, perhaps? ;)

 

I kid.

 

 

Kinda.

[Sothalor]

I feel like part of the current perception of this disparity is due to the Custodes recent time in the limelight as a playable tabletop force. Before this, there really wasn't all that much information about them, or that many detailed accounts of Custodians engaged in battle. What we had typically showcased individuals and small groups of them - where, admittedly, they tended to make pretty strong cases for "Do Not With These Guys."

However, there always remained a clear delineation between Astartes and Custodes. The Astartes were legions of soldiers: armies with the organization and logistical support and mission statement of "Go out and conquer the galaxy." The Custodes were few in number and had a very specific role: bodyguards to the Emperor. They may well have been individual badasses of unsurpassed caliber, but they weren't a full-blown army; that just wasn't their function.

With the release of Inferno and a playable Talons of the Emperor list, that's obviously changed. Now the Custodes have Shield-Captains, Dreadnoughts, armored support of various kinds, hover transports, etc. I'm not saying they didn't before, but that those elements were very much not the focus of who the Custodes were. It's not surprising that with all this new stuff, quite a few people are left going "Wait, why bother with the Astartes Legions then?"

Part of that, I think, comes down to the tabletop game's inability to really portray the staggering logistical differences between equipping the Custodes and equipping the Legiones Astartes. There's a quote from a professor about comparing the various qualities of Main Battle Tanks; it goes something like, "A tank that performs 10% better than its counterpart but costs twice as much may win a one-on-one duel, but it does not win the war." I feel the Custodes are rather like that: they may outperform Space Marines on individual levels, they may be equipped with the very finest of gear available to nobody else, but they are also so expensive, rare, and precious, that the loss of each one is costly to the Imperium in a way that the loss of a Space Marine isn't.

[b1soul]

There's no answer there - but the readership latched onto 50% of the text as The Answer, and largely ignored the other half, which is a significant loss of context.

I can't speak for other readers...but personally, I didn't ignore the later exchange. I tried to place the later exchange in the context of the earlier description.

 

That said, I agree that there are different ways one could go about interpreting context.

 

Anyway, here's the scene with the two Custodes facing down Dorn and his squad. Nice bit of writing. I'll note that Dorn seems semi-bemused by the Custodes refusal to back down...though of course, he may perhaps have been in for a rude awakening if the poop had hit the fan. Abnett's "power levels" can be a bit wonky at times.

 

 

 

‘Put up your weapons,’ he said gently.

The Imperial Fists smartly raised the boltguns to their shoulders.

‘I meant everyone,’ added Dorn, looking at the custodes.

Amon and Haedo kept their spears aimed at the canopied throne.

‘My lord, Pherom Sichar is a traitor and spy,’ replied Amon carefully. ‘He is using the networks of his extensive mercantile empire to communicate with the Warmaster and his benighted rebels. We have just cause and evidence enough to hold him and interrogate him. He will come with us.’

‘Or?’ asked Dorn with a soft, almost amused smile.

‘He will come with us, my lord,’ Amon insisted.

Dorn nodded.

‘An object lesson in determination and loyalty, eh, Archamus?’ he said.

‘Indeed, my lord,’ replied the commander of the huscarls.

‘They would fight six Astartes and a primarch in order to accomplish their duty,’ Dorn said.

‘My lord,’ Amon said, ‘please stand aside.’

‘I’m half-tempted to let you attempt to go through me,’ said Dorn. ‘I would, of course, hurt you both.’

‘You would try,’ replied Haedo. ‘My lord,’ he added.

‘Enough,’ said Dorn. ‘Archamus?’

The retinue commander stepped forwards.

‘Lord Sichar of Hy Brasil is a spy,’ he announced, quite matter-of-factly. ‘Lord Sichar of Hy Brasil has been in regular communication with Horus Lupercal, and has exchanged with the traitor a great deal of intelligence.’

‘You admit it?’ asked Amon.

‘He’s our spy,’ said Dorn.

 

 

 

On a side note, I like how Dorn is portrayed as quite competent at counter-intelligence here.