Celestine rules question

[ValourousHeart]

I am not sure how Celestine's Divine Guardians rule and Eternal Warrior interact.

Does she take the save, apply EW, and then give the wound to one of the girls?

Or does she pass it at the beginning, and one of the girls take the save.

 

Also it seems that Devine Guardians is has a similar effect as Look Out Sir, but the wording seems to indicate that it doesn't work in the same way.

 

Divine Guardians seems like it will even take affect when Celestine is in a challenge.

[Commander Dawnstar]

I can't speak on this with any authority, but the consensus in my GW was that, like you said, it's essentially an automatic Look Out Sir that still applies in challenges.

[Drider]

At first glance you automatically assume that it works the same way as 'look out sir' but it's not 'look out sir' if it was they would more than likely have phrased the rule to say that she automatically passes 'look out sir tests'.

 

The way I've been playing it is: 

You roll the saves closest model first, if that model is celestine then you roll against her save.

if celestine takes a wound it bounces to her seraphim.

If that wound is S6 or Instant Death it outright kills the seraphim, because they don't have eternal warrior.

 

I had a massive chat about it with the folk at my club when they came out and that was the general consensus that we came to.

 

It's only when the seraphim are gone and celestine is tanking wounds herself that the eternal warrior comes into play.

 

And yes, it does come into play in challenges.

[Commander Dawnstar]

What causes the confusion here is that GW is inconsistent on what it means to suffer a wound:

 

Sometimes they use it to refer to wounds before saves: "They suffer a total of six wounds ... He then picks up and rolls six saving throws" or "To take a Dangerous Terrain test roll a D6. On a result of a 1, that model suffers a wound."

 

Sometimes they use it to refer to unsaved wounds: "If the roll is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a wound" or "If both sides suffer the same number of wounds, the combat is drawn and continues next turn."

 

---

 

I think Drider's reading is totally valid here, it just isn't the one that my local GW has settled on.

[Brother Sefiel]

Greetings

I've played Celestine four times. I've always resolved the wounds against her escorts rather than have her make the save.

As it happens, every game I've fielded her in I've won either comfortably or embarrassingly easily, so allowing Celestine to take the save and then pass any unsaved wounds on seems perhaps more than a little overpowered...

[Atrus]

Hopefully it'll get a FAQ, but round my parts, we've had it as Drider described and kept it that way.

Surprisingly, I'm the only one in my area who fields her- though that may have more to do with the amount of Tau and Space Marine players around. So this issue doesn't come up too often.

[Shifte]

Eternal Warrior turns instant death into a single wound. The question is when all of this occurs in the 'stack'. I could make either case, so it needs an FAQ. No clear answer in the rulebook.

[Montford]

In concurrence with Drider. "Resolve any wounds suffered by Celestine against the nearest Geminae Superia instead".

 

In that sequence. It doesn't say hit, it says wound. Celestine must first suffer a wound, which means that she must fail a save, and then that wound is transferred to the nearest Geminae.

[Commander Dawnstar]

I'm going to move to agreeing with that reading on account of the wording of 'Look Out Sir.'

 

Even if I still consider "wounds suffered" to be ambiguous language, as GW uses it interchangeably for wounds before and after armour saves, the game changer for me is that 'Look Out Sir' comes into play "When a Wound is allocated to one of your [...] characters," and that's a completely different kettle of fish to the wording in Celestine's rules. There's a very clear precedent there for how they could have worded things if the intent was to have the Geminae take the save rather than Celestine, and the absence of that wording forces me to conclude that "wounds suffered" is referring to unsaved wounds in this instance.

[Brother Sefiel]

Hello
 

 

Even if I still consider "wounds suffered" to be ambiguous language, as GW uses it interchangeably for wounds before and after armour saves, the game changer for me is that 'Look Out Sir' comes into play "When a Wound is allocated to one of your [...] characters," and that's a completely different kettle of fish to the wording in Celestine's rules. There's a very clear precedent there for how they could have worded things if the intent was to have the Geminae take the save rather than Celestine, and the absence of that wording forces me to conclude that "wounds suffered" is referring to unsaved wounds in this instance.

Heh, that may be so, but for the sake of not steamrollering my mates every time I take her (well, any worse than I already do) I'm going to keep playing her as I said before for the time being.

[Jacinda]

We discussed this in OR but I don't think there was any clear consensus on all the different issues other than Divine Guardian works even in a challange.

 

Locally we play it like Drider said.  Closest model is allocated wounds and makes saves.  Unsaved wounds are then reduced from the closest twin.  Also, a Look Out, Sir roll may be attempted before the saves if you want to pass this off to someone else in a joined unit.  While we agreed it was possible no one has seen a good reason why you would.

[A.T.]

While we agreed it was possible no one has seen a good reason why you would.

Palming off instant death-type attacks away from the gemini to regular models I guess.

[hunterkiler86]

I am not sure how Celestine's Divine Guardians rule and Eternal Warrior interact.

Does she take the save, apply EW, and then give the wound to one of the girls?

Or does she pass it at the beginning, and one of the girls take the save.

 

Also it seems that Devine Guardians is has a similar effect as Look Out Sir, but the wording seems to indicate that it doesn't work in the same way.

 

Divine Guardians seems like it will even take affect when Celestine is in a challenge.

reading the fall of cadia book, the nearest gemini takes the wounds first. let me explain it in a scenario.

 

 

celestine takes 3 lascannon shots.  the closest gemini to celestine automatically takes the wound first.  i roll 3 dice and make none of my invul save on the first gemini.  I lose her because she is not an eternal warrior.  the next two saves, i take on the other gemini, fail them both. she's knocked off. so then Celestine has to take one 4+ invul save.  It just isn't my day, and i fail that save too.  Since she an eternal warrior, she only takes one wound.

 

does that help? 

[Noeh]

The problem is that it says "unsaved wounds". The gemini don't make the save, Celestine does. The gemini just take the wounds instead of Celestine. Interpretation of eternal warrior only being on Celestine and if it's instant death for the other two..well you decide that I guess. Personally I feel a wound that would instantly kill the gemini would do so since only Celestine has EW.

 

Also, her ability works in any situation. Challenge or otherwise. It's not a look out, sir. The ability itself says they just take the unsaved wounds first. That means any unsaved wounds at any time.

[Commander Dawnstar]

The problem is that it says "unsaved wounds".

 

It doesn't say that at all. My whole point of contention here was based in the rule saying "... resolve any wounds suffered..." rather than specifically stating unsaved wounds.

[Drider]

you make it sound like you're rerolling the dice each time you try to pass a wound. rolling 3 then rerolling 2 then rerolling 1. not sure if it's just bad phrasing but if that's what you're doing then it's totally wrong seeing as the BRB says you can only reroll a dice once. 

 

The whole point of contention is the wording 'suffers a wound'. if the twins were supposed to roll the saves then surely they would have just worded it as an automatic look out sir that you don't have to test for. 

[Noeh]

 

The problem is that it says "unsaved wounds".

 

It doesn't say that at all. My whole point of contention here was based in the rule saying "... resolve any wounds suffered..." rather than specifically stating unsaved wounds.

 

Wounds suffered is the same thing as unsaved wounds. A unit cannot suffer a wound unless a save is failed.

[Commander Dawnstar]

 

Wounds suffered is the same thing as unsaved wounds. A unit cannot suffer a wound unless a save is failed.

 

I have a post earlier in the thread with multiple examples of the core rulebook referring to units as suffering wounds before they had taken armour saves. The rules for Dangerous Terrain Tests are a good example of this, stating that "On a roll of a 1, that model suffers a Wound. The model may take an armour or invulnerable save, but not a cover save, against this Wound."

[Noeh]

 

 

Wounds suffered is the same thing as unsaved wounds. A unit cannot suffer a wound unless a save is failed.

 

I have a post earlier in the thread with multiple examples of the core rulebook referring to units as suffering wounds before they had taken armour saves. The rules for Dangerous Terrain Tests are a good example of this, stating that "On a roll of a 1, that model suffers a Wound. The model may take an armour or invulnerable save, but not a cover save, against this Wound."

 

 

It also uses "unit" to mean 1 single guy or a whole squad of them..but it would have just been easier for them to say Celestine gets an automatic look out sir than what they wrote. Everyone I know of has taken what they wrote to mean Celestine makes the save and if it fails the geminae take the wound.

[Jacinda]

 

 Everyone I know of has taken what they wrote to mean Celestine makes the save and if it fails the geminae take the wound.

 

 

If she is the closest, yes.  That is how we play it here.

 

I think we are all ariving at the same conclusion, just taking different routes.  If the rule actually said "unsaved wounds" there would not be a problem.  But it doesn't and so there is. -.-

 

The way I see it, (fluff alert!) it is not like a LO,S test because the geminae are not moving in front to take the hit.  They are emphatically linked to the point that when Celestine is hurt, the gaminae take her pain.

[ValourousHeart]

Well I think I am going to play it that the EW does not take effect until the Saint is actually losing the wound herself instead of one of the twins.

But you guys made enough arguments that convinced me that it is the Saint who is tanking the wounds, so she gets to use her 2+ armor first.

 

The more I think about this, the more it seems to work like Shadowsword apoc formation... the one with the Shadowsword surrounded by several Leman Russ and Sentinels where damage to the Shadowsword was resolved on all of the Leman Russ and Sentinels first.