Space Wolves Heresy HQ limitations

[Kasper_Hawser]

Hi everyone,

 

I'm planning to delve into 30K using my 40K models as far as can reasonably WSYWIG'ed. Thankfully there's a lot of analogs from 30K to 40K, and frankly, though my 40K models look modern and better, the rules in 30K are infinitely better than 40K. As someone said, less wolf nonsense and more infantry bashing. 

 

That being said, I'm somewhat dismayed at the inflexibility of the HQs. If I read wrong, a Space wolves legion detachment can only be led by a Praetor or a Centurion only. Does this means any other Consul is out? Including the unique and awesome Speakers of the Dead and Rune Priests? Or the other Iron Priests equivalent? (Signals, forge lords, etc.)? Also it says that for every 1000 points, there must be a HQ. So basically after I've breached 1000 points (which I have to if I want a Rite of War anyway), I must have another secondary HQ which CAN be anything I want?

 

Basically I'm more worried about being stuck with Praetor and basic centurion as my first HQ. Is this kind of limitation normal? The way I read most legions, most are forced to take a second specific consul, but the 1st one can be anybody they want.

 

Anyway I can view this limitation as a good thing?

 

Your clarification is greatly appreciated.

 

 

[Lord Blackwood]

speakers of the dead can fill the  Hq slots after the first and are very good for their points for like 125 you get a solid force multiplier 

You are correct that you gotta roll a praetor for your first HQ  it sorta sucks but it is what it is 

For every 1000 bracket you need a next HQ   but you can take speakers for like 115 with just artificer armor and a powermaul and they are pretty solid  ( though I reckon sprining for the great frost weapon is a good go of things ) 

Its a limitation yea , it also sucks , but  its something you can build around 

Dont let it get you down too much. 

[Kasper_Hawser]

speakers of the dead can fill the  Hq slots after the first and are very good for their points for like 125 you get a solid force multiplier 

 

You are correct that you gotta roll a praetor for your first HQ  it sorta sucks but it is what it is 

 

For every 1000 bracket you need a next HQ   but you can take speakers for like 115 with just artificer armor and a powermaul and they are pretty solid  ( though I reckon sprining for the great frost weapon is a good go of things ) 

 

Its a limitation yea , it also sucks , but  its something you can build around 

 

Dont let it get you down too much. 

 

Not just a Praetor for 1st HQ, basic Centurion too right? I guess I'll have to go with a basic Centurion as my "tax" for a Speaker of the Dead or Rune Priest (I forgot the 30K name). Or any of the wonderful consuls that the Wolves are allowed to take. Ah well, for Grey Slayers to reach their maximum potential, only Greigor makes sense to join them. Anybody else will prevent the Grey Slayers from shooting, running, and charging. Another annoying limitation, either they're forcing us to use Greigor, or they just made an oversight that result in almost all of our HQs, even Russ, would be incompatible with Grey Slayers and take away their o. (but what an awesome troop it is, truly what Grey Hunters are suppose to be with an even cooler name)

 

Varagyr terminators seem really meh though. If i read properly, their only gimmick is a stronger Hammer of Wrath.

[Jackalwolf]

You need the following:

 

• 1 HQ for every 1,000 points of your army
• Your first compulsory HQ must be a centurion or a Praetor, taking into account that both named characters, Geigor and Hvarl, do count as such

You can use any HQ option to fill subsequent requirements excepting Primus Medicaes and Librarians.

[apologist]

As Grieux says, it's 'either/or', not 'and'; so while your first compulsory HQ must be either a Praetor or Centurion, any subsequent ones can be anything you like. It's also worth noting that while you have to take an HQ for every 1,000pts, there's nothing stopping you taking more. In principle, you could have three HQs at 1,000pts, though I think the compulsory troops you need to take would make this impossible in practise.

Basically I'm more worried about being stuck with Praetor and basic centurion as my first HQ. Is this kind of limitation normal? The way I read most legions, most are forced to take a second specific consul, but the 1st one can be anybody they want.

Anyway I can view this limitation as a good thing?

I've seen a number of complaints about this limitation for the VIth, and I'm really struggling to understand why a player – of any legion – wouldn't want a solid, all-round leader like a Praetor or Centurion in their force. Background-wise, they're the core line officers of the Legion. They're the sort of officers that fan favourite characters like Garro, Torgaddon, Loken, Tarvitz, Khârn and so forth are.

Even in game terms, Praetors are the go-to leaders of choice, owing to their stats and equipment. Centurions might be relatively lowly, but they're cheap and effective. Is there any way you can see this as a good thing? Absolutely – it's nothing but a good thing!

I can understand that it might be frustrating if you want to make something hugely specific – like an army themed around a group of three Speakers of the Dead, for example – but these outlying extreme examples should be discussed with your gaming group anyway. It becomes quickly obvious if someone's just wanting to do it to give themselves an in-game, rules-based advantage, but most people are pretty open-minded about altering the letter of the limits for good, background-, character- or scenario-led reasons.

On the broader point of whether Space Wolves are somehow specially penalised by their Legion rules, I'd just point out that the limitations and advantages of each Legion are what give them their specific flavour, which is in turn guided by the background. Embrace the limitations, build around them, and I reckon you'll quickly find yourself with a force that surprises you and gives you a lot of enjoyment – and perhaps a new challenge. You'll also find that you get a better reception from other players, as the army looks like a Space Wolf force 'should'.

[Leif Bearclaw]

You need the following:

• 1 HQ for every 1,000 points of your army
• Your first compulsory HQ must be a centurion or a Praetor, taking into account that both named characters, Geigor and Hvarl, do count as such

You can use any HQ option to fill subsequent requirements excepting Primus Medicaes and Librarians.

That isn't what it says though (unless they've stealth FAQed it a lot faster than expected).

The special characters should count as Praetor/Centurions, but don't as written. It also doesn't say anything about only the first compulsory HQ being Praetor/Centurion. It also doesn't address how the 1 per 1000 rule affects interacts with the FoC, and what counts as 'compulsory'. Is it the one listed on the FoC, and the LA-mandated ones being 'soft compulsory', and therefore can be taken as Consuls? It doesn't say with any clarity. Or are all the '1 per 1000' HQs 'compulsory', because the rules say you have to take them, severely limiting the SW's ability to take Consuls? Do these new HQ rules completely supersede the HQ sections of the FoC? If not, then you cannot, shenanigans notwithstanding, play SWs at over 3000 points, as you don't have a 4th HQ slot to cover the 3001-4000 increment.

It also makes allied detachments of SW borderline impossible, because it applies to the army, instead of detachment.

The LA:SW rules are a steaming mess, whichever way you slice it (HQ issues being only one point of contention). Yet more proof that FW's rules are either not edited, or the editor doesn't have a clue.

I've seen a number of complaints about this limitation for the VIth, and I'm really struggling to understand why a player – of any legion – wouldn't want a solid, all-round leader like a Praetor or Centurion in their force. Background-wise, they're the core line officers of the Legion. They're the sort of officers that fan favourite characters like Garro, Torgaddon, Loken, Tarvitz, Khârn and so forth are.

Because people don't like being forced into things? You want to save points (so no Preator) and don't want a kinda pointless melee beatstick (so no Centurion). You're playing small games and would much rather take a Consul Delegatus that actually adds something to the army?

On the broader point of whether Space Wolves are somehow specially penalised by their Legion rules, I'd just point out that the limitations and advantages of each Legion are what give them their specific flavour, which is in turn guided by the background. Embrace the limitations, build around them, and I reckon you'll quickly find yourself with a force that surprises you and gives you a lot of enjoyment – and perhaps a new challenge. You'll also find that you get a better reception from other players, as the army looks like a Space Wolf force 'should'.

I'm sorry but nope. How many times do we hear stuff like 'is a Death Guard jetbike army/Raven Guard tank company fluffy', and the response is 'of course, this isn't 40k, all Legions could do everything', bit now SW are the exception? that.

That said, a lot of the issue atm stems from just how vague and poorly worded the rules are. We need clarification on the HQ issue, and how the Grey Slayers interact with Rites of War that give alternate compulsory troop choices (and Russ's similar rule). Because if they are indeed cut off from these Rites, they are specially penalised.

The HQ rule is just a bad limitation. It was an irritating, frustrating rule in 3rd edition, and no tears were shed when it was dropped from the 40k SW rules. Seeing it return in 30k is not a welcome sight.

[Jackalwolf]

Brah... verbatim from the book:

 

• Detachments with the Legiones Astartes (Space Wolves) special rule must fulfill their compulsory HQ choice with either a Praetor or Centurion (representing a Wolf Lord or Claw Leader). Other HQ choices or Consul types may not be selected as compulsory HQ choices.
• Any detachments with the Legiones Astartes (Space Wolves) special rule must include at least 1 HQ unit per 1,000 points or part thereof in the army regardless of the Force Allocation chart being used. So, for example, in an army of less than 1,000 points, a single HQ choice must be included. In Detachments of 1,001 - 1,999 points (which should read 1,001 - 2,000 points... because math works like that no matter what a typo says), at least two HQ choices must be included , and so on.

 

They're two different rules, not one single rule saying your compulsory HQ choice must be a praetor or centurion and you must select another praetor or centurion for each 1,000 additional points.

Only your first HQ is compulsory since the rest are optional based on the size of the game you've decided to play.

 

And I'm fully behind Apologist in this one. We're whining like spoilt children. ALL legions have limitations, whether it is legion special rules, restricted access to units, different special units or whatevs. Being forced to take an amazing choice like a Praetor or a Centurion isn't a restriction at all since everybody and their mother are already doing that. Much less punishing than other legions limitations.

 

If you want a vanilla army, Ultramarines are out there :P Space Wolves are all about the heroes and our sagas and have been like that since their inception.

[apologist]

Leif Bearclaw, on 23 Mar 2017 - 10:03 AM, said:

Because people don't like being forced into things? You want to save points (so no Preator) and don't want a kinda pointless melee beatstick (so no Centurion). You're playing small games and would much rather take a Consul Delegatus that actually adds something to the army?

Those sound like exactly the specific outlying cases I described. The Age of Darkness rules are explicitly intended to play at larger points values, so I think the 'limitation in a smaller game' objection is a feature, not a bug. Even those specific objections seem a bit contradictory: if saving points is the goal, the bare-bones Centurion is an obvious – and background-rich – alternative for a Praetor.

I'm sorry but nope. How many times do we hear stuff like 'is a Death Guard jetbike army/Raven Guard tank company fluffy', and the response is 'of course, this isn't 40k, all Legions could do everything', bit now SW are the exception? that.

[...]

The HQ rule is just a bad limitation. It was an irritating, frustrating rule in 3rd edition, and no tears were shed when it was dropped from the 40k SW rules. Seeing it return in 30k is not a welcome sight.

Taking the first point, no-one's saying that Space Wolves can't do anything. At worst – at worst – you pay a 50pts and HQ slot 'tax' for a bare-bones Centurion. Even at 1,000pts, that's prevents you from nothing except the most extreme outlying cases. To take the Death Guard jetbikes and Raven Guard tank company counter-examples, both are perfectly possible – but their Legion rules stop them from being optimal.

I understand any limitations can seem frustrating, but I think a lot of the frustration comes from attempts to bypass them; approaching them as obstacles to be overcome; rather than guidance for players to create armies that reflect the 'core competencies' of a particular Legion. Think of them like the force organisation chart, rather than an attack.

That's not to say that I don't sympathise; but ultimately, if you're not happy with them, why not discuss with the other player your reasons for wanting to bypass them?

+++

An edit – reading back over this, I've no intention for this to become heated or pointed; so I wanted to just note that this should all be taken with no malice intended. :)

I mentioned earlier that I struggled 'to understand why a player – of any legion – wouldn't want a solid, all-round leader like a Praetor or Centurion in their force'. That's not rhetoric; I'm genuinely asking for specific lists which are prevented or irredeemably compromised by the limitations we're discussing.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Sorry if I seem like I'm complaining, I haven't even tried a game in 30K yet but I've been reading the Legion stuff ever since the early days. Only recently when the Burning of Prospero was released and combined with the legion rules of 30K Wolves have I started considering seriously how to enter 30K.

 

so bear in mind I am primarily 40K, but have read extensively about 30K rules, down to all the specific legions. that being said, i have ZERO EXPERIENCE hence my asking about the HQ limitation.

 

Just to be clear, my gripe is mainly on constricting the army building freedom. I know every legion has their limits as well as their strengths, from the heavy armour Iron Hands, to the walking siege machines IF and IW, to the zippy White Scars and Dark Angels. Each also has its restrictions whether its one less FA/HS or can never be more than XXXX. In this area, I think Wolves got off easy except for the specific Rite of Wars, but both emphasize infantry maneuvers anyway. I wasn't thinking of spamming Spekaers of the Dead or Forge Lords, but I was thinking as I was starting out, instead of a centurion, I could use a consul instead for my first battle. as it is, unless I use the characters Hvarl and Greigor, I HAVE to use a Praetor or Centurion in my first game. Both of which doesn't synergize with Grey Slayers. and then as I read on, I realized nothing else seems to synergize joining Grey Hunters as it'll take away their Warrior's mettle. In a way, I have to use Grey Slayers like Destroyers, good at what they do but cannot be joined by anyone.

 

At the moment, I think I should use another useful support squad after fulfilling the Grey Slayer compulsory troops and synergize Centurion with THAT instead. the Breachers look so sexy to me, and with Space Wolves inherrent counter attack and hunter's gait, they might actually be a better anvil unit than most breachers while Grey Slayers wait to pounce on anybody else going after the Breachers.

 

Bear in mind, if I'm starting out, I would try at 1000 points first just to get the hang of it.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Brah... verbatim from the book:

• Detachments with the Legiones Astartes (Space Wolves) special rule must fulfill their compulsory HQ choice with either a Praetor or Centurion (representing a Wolf Lord or Claw Leader). Other HQ choices or Consul types may not be selected as compulsory HQ choices.
• Any detachments with the Legiones Astartes (Space Wolves) special rule must include at least 1 HQ unit per 1,000 points or part thereof in the army regardless of the Force Allocation chart being used. So, for example, in an army of less than 1,000 points, a single HQ choice must be included. In Detachments of 1,001 - 1,999 points (which should read 1,001 - 2,000 points... because math works like that no matter what a typo says), at least two HQ choices must be included , and so on.

So? I don't see what contradicts what I said. The interaction of these rules needs clarification. What counts as 'compulsory' in this context? Why does point one talk about a single compulsory choice, when the second one forces additional HQ picks in game larger than 1000? Do we just ignore the HQ section of the FoC, or is it impossible to play SW at over 3000 points?

Quite frankly, your previous post, which may well be the RAI makes more sense, and is less ambiguous, than what FW published. All you'd need to ass there is the specific overwriting of the FoC to allow 4+ HQs in 3k+ games. I'd still hate the restriction, because it was BS in 40k, and it's BS in 30k, but at least it would be clear and unambigous.

And I'm fully behind Apologist in this one. We're whining like spoilt children. ALL legions have limitations, whether it is legion special rules, restricted access to units, different special units or whatevs. Being forced to take an amazing choice like a Praetor or a Centurion isn't a restriction at all since everybody and their mother are already doing that. Much less punishing than other legions limitations.

So being annoyed that only one Legion potentially (because again, the chief problem atm is lack of clarity) gets the vast majority of the cool alternate army builds (which seem to be one of the major draws of 30k, RoW providing a surprising diversity of Marine forces) forbidden to it is "whining like spoilt children" now? No, that is the Wolves being specially penalised. Yes, other Legions have some restrictions, but none as severe as the harshest reading of the Sw rules. So a Salamander Assault Marine Company or RG Siege Artillery force is perfectly OK and 'fluffy', but a SW veteran force or tank company is verboten? That's just messed up and is idiotically restrictive.

I'm sorry but nope. How many times do we hear stuff like 'is a Death Guard jetbike army/Raven Guard tank company fluffy', and the response is 'of course, this isn't 40k, all Legions could do everything', bit now SW are the exception? that.

[...]

The HQ rule is just a bad limitation. It was an irritating, frustrating rule in 3rd edition, and no tears were shed when it was dropped from the 40k SW rules. Seeing it return in 30k is not a welcome sight.

Taking the first point, no-one's saying that Space Wolves can't do anything. At worst – at worst – you pay a 50pts and HQ slot 'tax' for a bare-bones Centurion. Even at 1,000pts, that's prevents you from nothing except the most extreme outlying cases. To take the Death Guard jetbikes and Raven Guard tank company counter-examples, both are perfectly possible – but their Legion rules stop them from being optimal.

And that's the thing, there's a current interpretation of the rules that means exactly that, SWs can't do many of the generic army specialisations (which is weird, even by fluff standards). I don't mind not being 'optimal', but no being able to take so many army builds as SW sticks in my craw (especially stuff like Pride, Tanks and Dreads, thanks to a mix of fluff complaints and personal affection for certain unit types) Granted, this goes beyond the HQ thing a bit into the wider LA rules, but the same infuriatingly badly written rules are the root cause of both.

An edit – reading back over this, I've no intention for this to become heated or pointed

That's probably my fault . Thing is though, the LA:SW rules were a complete kick in the nuts. A return of a rule I was glad to see the back of, a rules lawyer fight waiting to happen, potentially (because again, vague, badly written rules) highly restrictive list building, lacklustre uniques (Priests having worse profiles than Consuls, limited wargear choice vs Consuls, GS shouldn't lose warrior's mettle when joined by characters, Varangyr price etc.). Overall it seemed like FW were trying to dictate that SW should only be run as infantry goonswarm armies. For a product I'd been waiting so long for, and was hoping would serve as some kind of refugee/renaissance when I'm getting increasingly disillusioned with the direction of 40k? Very disappointing.

[apologist]

Just to be clear, my gripe is mainly on constricting the army building freedom. I know every legion has their limits as well as their strengths, from the heavy armour Iron Hands, to the walking siege machines IF and IW, to the zippy White Scars and Dark Angels. Each also has its restrictions whether its one less FA/HS or can never be more than XXXX. In this area, I think Wolves got off easy except for the specific Rite of Wars, but both emphasize infantry maneuvers anyway. I wasn't thinking of spamming Spekaers of the Dead or Forge Lords, but I was thinking as I was starting out, instead of a centurion, I could use a consul instead for my first battle. as it is, unless I use the characters Hvarl and Greigor, I HAVE to use a Praetor or Centurion in my first game. Both of which doesn't synergize with Grey Slayers. and then as I read on, I realized nothing else seems to synergize joining Grey Hunters as it'll take away their Warrior's mettle. In a way, I have to use Grey Slayers like Destroyers, good at what they do but cannot be joined by anyone.

At the moment, I think I should use another useful support squad after fulfilling the Grey Slayer compulsory troops and synergize Centurion with THAT instead. the Breachers look so sexy to me, and with Space Wolves inherrent counter attack and hunter's gait, they might actually be a better anvil unit than most breachers while Grey Slayers wait to pounce on anybody else going after the Breachers.

Bear in mind, if I'm starting out, I would try at 1000 points first just to get the hang of it.

Hi Kasper – let me reassure you that you don't sound like you're complaining; my apologies if our replies seem a little terse

At such an exceptionally low points level, you might consider chatting with the other player – the lists are specifically designed around 2500pts+ (see my follow-up post below), so odd bits like this will pop up.

Alternatively, assign your Claw Leader (Centurion) to a squad other than the Grey Slayers. He does offer some limited synergy in an LD boost, after all. Personally, I'd consider this game a practise one – 1,000pts is small enough that you can swap sides, or play again to try something new.

+++

What counts as 'compulsory' in this context? Why does point one talk about a single compulsory choice, when the second one forces additional HQ picks in game larger than 1000? Do we just ignore the HQ section of the FoC, or is it impossible to play SW at over 3000 points?

The long and the short of this seems to be not considering the rules in the round. The term 'compulsory' refer to the general Compulsory HQ choice on the Force Organisation charts. As the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook says:

The boxes on a Force Organisation Chart are referred to as slots. Each slot will typically specify a Battlefield Role. Each slot allows you to take one unit. Black boxes are compulsory selections – you must take at least this many units of the appropriate Battlefield Role to include this Detachment in your army. If you cannot include the compulsory number of units, you cannot include that Detachment. Grey boxes are optional selections – you can include up to this number of units of the appropriate Battlefield Role when including this Detachment in your army.

My emphasis.

Here's a rundown:

• At 1,000pts or less, your Compulsory selection must be either a Centurion or Praetor. You can take up to two additional HQs as Optional selections, with no limitation of type.
• At 2,000pts or less, your Compulsory selectionmust be either a Centurion or Praetor. At least one other HQ must be taken as one of your Optional selections, which can be of any type. You can take a third Optional selection, with no limitation of type.
• At 3,000pts or less, your Compulsory selection must be either a Centurion or Praetor and at least two other HQs as Optional selections, which can be of any type.

As you can see, writing it out in 'legalese' is not only dull, but opaquely dense.

Beyond this point, the force organisation chart breaks down – as explained in the Battles in the Age of Darkness blurb:

The following Force Organisation chart is recommended for battles of Warhammer 40,000 played between armies of 1,500-3,000 points fought during the terrible wars of the Horus Heresy. [...] For games of 1,500 points or less we advise that you instead use the standard Force Organisation chart found on page 109 of the Warhammer 40,000 rule book, while for considerably larger games, the Apocalypse game expansion is recommended.

+++

Quite frankly, your previous post, which may well be the RAI makes more sense, and is less ambiguous, than what FW published. All you'd need to ass there is the specific overwriting of the FoC to allow 4+ HQs in 3k+ games. I'd still hate the restriction, because it was BS in 40k, and it's BS in 30k, but at least it would be clear and unambigous.

As explained above, the expansion isn't designed to support such size games; Forge World recommend you should use the Apocalypse rules.

Personally, I'd chat with my friends and say – 'Do you mind if I take a second Force Organisation chart, as suggested in the main rulebook?' or 'I'd like to play 4,000pts; how would you like to expand the Space Wolf rules for the game? Should I take a fourth compulsory HQ, or do we stick with a maximum of three and ignore the restriction?'

So being annoyed that only one Legion [...] gets the vast majority of the cool alternate army builds [...] forbidden to it is "whining like spoilt children" now? No, that is the Wolves being specially penalised. Yes, other Legions have some restrictions, but none as severe as the harshest reading of the Sw rules. So a Salamander Assault Marine Company or RG Siege Artillery force is perfectly OK and 'fluffy', but a SW veteran force or tank company is verboten? That's just messed up and is idiotically restrictive.

I think it's very clear.

I don't think the Space Wolves are unfairly or disproportionately restricted.

And that's the thing, there's a current interpretation of the rules that means exactly that, SWs can't do many of the generic army specialisations (which is weird, even by fluff standards). I don't mind not being 'optimal', but no being able to take so many army builds as SW sticks in my craw (especially stuff like Pride, Tanks and Dreads, thanks to a mix of fluff complaints and personal affection for certain unit types) Granted, this goes beyond the HQ thing a bit into the wider LA rules, but the same infuriatingly badly written rules are the root cause of both.

I may have missed something here – what's the reason you can't do these? I may well have missed something, but on specifics, can't you...

• Take a Praetor as your compulsory choice to make a Space Wolf Veteran force?
• Take a Centurion as your compulsory choice and pop him in a Rhino for a tank company?
• Use the Unbound rules from the main Warhammer 40,000 rulebook?

I'll admit these do restrict you a little; but they don't outright prevent you – unless of course I've missed something?

Those answers might sounds a bit 'pat', but the Age of Darkness rules are presented as an expansion of the main Warhammer 40,000 game. They are explicitly intended to be played as part of the campaigns detailed in the main books.

That's probably my fault ermm.gif. Thing is though, the LA:SW rules were a complete kick in the nuts. A return of a rule I was glad to see the back of, a rules lawyer fight waiting to happen, potentially (because again, vague, badly written rules) highly restrictive list building, lacklustre uniques (Priests having worse profiles than Consuls, limited wargear choice vs Consuls, GS shouldn't lose warrior's mettle when joined by characters, Varangyr price etc.). Overall it seemed like FW were trying to dictate that SW should only be run as infantry goonswarm armies. For a product I'd been waiting so long for, and was hoping would serve as some kind of refugee/renaissance when I'm getting increasingly disillusioned with the direction of 40k? Very disappointing.

In creating any interpretation of background, rules writers have to add restrictions, or specialisation becomes meaningless. Unfortunately, GW's and FW's interpretation's are different to yours – I sympathise with that, but ultimately, isn't this a case of differing expectations? To me, a sea of infantry is a really cool image, and one that's very fitting for the 30k Vlka Fenryka. Were I to create an army, I'd find the FW and GW view perfect – it wouldn't alter my army one jot, as I see them much as GW and FW do – not a 'goonswarm', but an army of stoic foot-soldiers led by their champions.

[TL;DR]

Basically, if you don't play the expansion as Forge World intended it to be played, then you'll have to make compromises. The Legion list and sublists are not intended as expansions in themselves – though of course I think the vast majority of people play them as such.

However, in playing outside of the Forge World's explicitly more restrictive rules, and pushing for extremes, then you've got to allow for the rules creaking a bit. I don't think it's outrageous that players are expected to chat with their friends about such things and make their own, considered decisions.

[Baluc]

Apologist... you are severely uninformed as to how the wolves work.

 

We can't take pride, Armoured Breakthrough or chosen duty because Grey Slayers must be compulsory troops. All 3 Rites of War say you must take the relevant unit as compulsory choice. Since you cannot take 4 units in 2 slots the RoW is unavailable.

 

We can't take Furt of the Ancients because we do not have the centurion-consul Primus medicae, on top of not being able to take non-Grey Slayer units as compulsory.

 

LA:SW have the most army building restrictions in the heresy ruleset. Combined with one of the most restrictive RoW on the game.

 

Ironically... 1kS seem to have no restrictions... or more accuratly their restrictions are things you were going to do anyway...

 

To the OP the short answer is, yes your army building is severely restricted from a narrative point of view. You can really only play SW as a wave style army. You can express yourself in your manner of support but your list after 2k will likely always include 40 or so infantry. 20 troops and then a smattering of units yo put your characters in.

 

At 1000 points you won't be able to take a RoW... not even the zone mortalis one really without having a tiny army since Praetors run between 150 and 200 points after gear. But, more importantly you have a minimum spend of 350 pts before you can even look at a breacher unit. At that point you are still going to be rolled by the first contemptor you run across.

 

I've solved this issue personally by taking the most efficient units from other other slot and hopeing beyond hope it shores up my army.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Guys, please be courteous to each other, I don't want to start a rules war just on my account. Bear in mind I'm not asking which Rite of War I can or cannot use as a Wolves, or other limitations I see. I just want to play the game without thinking too much yet able to be fluffy. to be the manly viking marines that 40K wolves used to be before the introduction of the yiff factor. 

 

To Apologist and Grieux, I thank you greatly for your detailed explanations on the explaining the Org chart in general.

 

to Leif and Baluc, I feel a bit of your pain and agree, but as Grieux and Apologist mentioned, I'm not going to let the restrictions undermine my fluff bunny urges. I will still forge on with my 30K wolves, and hopefully get to revel in glorious combat instead of the pervasive Grav/MC/Knight/Superheavy saturation in 40K lately. 

 

Granted, those stuff were probably bigger and nastier back in 30K, but at least EVERY LEGION will be fielding large groups manly marines instead of using MSUs to save points and flood the table with Knights. I played to play marines, not Pacific Rim.

 

Thanks guys. Restrictions aside, you've given me some positive notes to continue forging on as Vlka Fenryka.

[apologist]

My apologies – indeed, I was unaware of the Grey Slayers being your only option for Compulsory troops. That certainly does curtail the available Rites of War.

Rhetorically, though, how restrictive is it? Is it enough to run an army that is effectively the same as the Rites of War allow you? Four Elites slots allows you lots of Terminators (or whatever you want from the PotL list); you can take lots of Predators in a standard Force organisation chart. It's certainly possible to heavily theme an army towards these concepts without having them by the letter of the rule.

Am I right in thinking that Russ allows you a Pride of the Legion-like army? Obviously there's the matter of Russ being compulsory in that example! :D

Now, I'm not denying that Space Wolves have restrictions, but as Grieux says 'Space Wolves are all about the heroes and our sagas and have been like that since their inception.'

Thanks guys. Restrictions aside, you've given me some positive notes to continue forging on as Vlka Fenryka.

Good! I hope you have a fantastic time playing the Vlka Fenryka – sounds like you're in for a treat with your foray into the great world of the Horus Heresy

'Til next winter

[Kasper_Hawser]

My apologies – indeed, I was unaware of the Grey Slayers being your only option for Compulsory troops. That certainly does curtail the available Rites of War.

Rhetorically, though, how restrictive is it? Is it enough to run an army that is effectively the same as the Rites of War allow you? Four Elites slots allows you lots of Terminators (or whatever you want from the PotL list); you can take lots of Predators in a standard Force organisation chart. It's certainly possible to heavily theme an army towards these concepts without having them by the letter of the rule.

Am I right in thinking that Russ allows you a Pride of the Legion-like army? Obviously there's the matter of Russ being compulsory in that example!

Now, I'm not denying that Space Wolves have restrictions, but as Grieux says 'Space Wolves are all about the heroes and our sagas and have been like that since their inception.'

Thanks guys. Restrictions aside, you've given me some positive notes to continue forging on as Vlka Fenryka.

Good! I hope you have a fantastic time playing the Vlka Fenryka – sounds like you're in for a treat with your foray into the great world of the Horus Heresy

'Til next winter

As we say in 30K and 40K, FENRIS HJOLDA!

[Jackalwolf]

 

So? I don't see what contradicts what I said. The interaction of these rules needs clarification. What counts as 'compulsory' in this context? Why does point one talk about a single compulsory choice, when the second one forces additional HQ picks in game larger than 1000? Do we just ignore the HQ section of the FoC, or is it impossible to play SW at over 3000 points?

 

Quite frankly, your previous post, which may well be the RAI makes more sense, and is less ambiguous, than what FW published. All you'd need to ass there is the specific overwriting of the FoC to allow 4+ HQs in 3k+ games. I'd still hate the restriction, because it was BS in 40k, and it's BS in 30k, but at least it would be clear and unambigous.

 

 

And I'm fully behind Apologist in this one. We're whining like spoilt children. ALL legions have limitations, whether it is legion special rules, restricted access to units, different special units or whatevs. Being forced to take an amazing choice like a Praetor or a Centurion isn't a restriction at all since everybody and their mother are already doing that. Much less punishing than other legions limitations.

 

So being annoyed that only one Legion potentially (because again, the chief problem atm is lack of clarity) gets the vast majority of the cool alternate army builds (which seem to be one of the major draws of 30k, RoW providing a surprising diversity of Marine forces) forbidden to it is "whining like spoilt children" now? No, that is the Wolves being specially penalised. Yes, other Legions have some restrictions, but none as severe as the harshest reading of the Sw rules. So a Salamander Assault Marine Company or RG Siege Artillery force is perfectly OK and 'fluffy', but a SW veteran force or tank company is verboten? That's just messed up and is idiotically restrictive.

 

• Nothing to argue there! If the complaint is regarding how sub-par the writing quality of Inferno is I 100% agree, that product should have raised a couple quality control red flags and not make it to the streets in that state. At least not for 80 quid.
• I guess I do see your point if you take the absolute worse possible reading of our (widely ambiguous rules), that does give very valid room to complain but honestly, I don't think no-one would enforce the rules in a way that it crosses the threshold of being unfair restrictions when compared to other legions. But again, you're totally right in that they should be clarified ASAP.

Sorry if I came across offensive! It's just I really think the SPIRIT of the rules is really in line with SW and our restrictions aren't bad at all (If interpreted in a reasonable manner, but again, there is so much FW needs to clarify that I think the real frustration of my peer SW fans is coming from that not from actual restrictions). Of course we could compare with 1kS or Custodes, but that's a whole other story! I think vs the other 14 legions we're pretty fine.

[Runefyre]

I honestly don't have an issue with the HQ restriction, it's being restricted from RoW's that I want to take. At the moment my small collection of 30k wolves is illegal (3x 5 man veteran squads, 5 terminators, a contemptor and the pretty Wolves box dread).

 

If indeed the Wolves are all about heroes and sagas, then I do find it offensive of FW sees fit to nix the Pride of the Legion army I was planning to build. Not all of us want to run Russ, some of us like to create our own characters and forge our own narratives (I know Apologist understands this lol).

 

I'm done being overly negative about our rules, but we definitely have some major gaps that should have been edited out long before Inferno hit the printing presses.

[Jackalwolf]

It's not 100% clear though that we can't take RoWs right? That's just another point to add to the long FAQ list I believe. What about if you take both the RoW compulsive choice and 2x grey slayers and cover all angles?

[Runefyre]

It's not 100% clear though that we can't take RoWs right? That's just another point to add to the long FAQ list I believe. What about if you take both the RoW compulsive choice and 2x grey slayers and cover all angles?

Then what's stopping me from just taking Pale Hunters and not hamstringing myself with the 2 vp's my opponent gains if all my veterans/terminators die?

 

Personally I love the "Jarl leading his band of best and closest brothers" theme Pride of the Legion lets me build.

[Baluc]

I think you misunderstand. I can build, paint and play an army while critising unnecessary and cumbersome restrictions on my imagination.

In fact I've made my way to Chicago to do just that this weekend.

@Grieux

A compulsory choice is a defined term. They are the black boxes on the force organtization chart you choose. So no you can't take extra troops to satisfy both.

[Jackalwolf]

That book is a hot mess.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Well, Russ makes any RoW into the ToW + pride of the legion does he not?

 

 

Here are the things you need to understand when looking at the setting.

 

Weither you like it or not, 30k is a historical game setting, not a competitive or sand box one. It's restrictive for almost everyone, and some more than most. This maintains the flavour of the legions. If you are trying to do what you can do in 40k here, you came to the wrong place. Space Wolves always had janky rules to include more characters. 4th ed anyone? They are represented in the heresy as relying less on armour and more on marines to carry the day.

 

Iron Hands, can't make full use of several rites of war because of rigid tactics. We don't complain all day about it. some legions have several drawbacks when attempting to play certain styles, like BA, DA or Salamanders.

 

This game is also more restrictive because it also represent what legions used to be before the Codex Astartes. Legions were not know for their flexibility in small scale.

 

To address this "All legions had all the tools, I should be able to do what I want" mentality, it was true... until their primarchs came around and messed with their legion's organization. Once they decided on the direction of their legions, some tools fell out of favour, and some even over specialized to the point of no longer being able to efficiently practice certain styles of warfare. Like the Iron Hands or the Space Wolves for example.

 

This game is played on a larger scale.

 

This means that those 1,500 or 1,850 points 40k standards do not cross over well. It is not designed nor intended to be a skirmish game outside of zone mortalis.

[Baluc]

Space wolves have not "Always" had rules forcing additional characters. It was literally only the 3rd edition supplement codex that had this requirement. The 5th edition book had the "Wolves unleashed" detachment which had a extra hq slot, but nothing was compulsory.

 

The problem is actually exasperated at larger points since removing infantry becomes more efficient as the points levels increase.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Well, Russ makes any RoW into the ToW + pride of the legion does he not?

 

 

Here are the things you need to understand when looking at the setting.

 

Weither you like it or not, 30k is a historical game setting, not a competitive or sand box one. It's restrictive for almost everyone, and some more than most. This maintains the flavour of the legions. If you are trying to do what you can do in 40k here, you came to the wrong place. Space Wolves always had janky rules to include more characters. 4th ed anyone? They are represented in the heresy as relying less on armour and more on marines to carry the day.

 

Iron Hands, can't make full use of several rites of war because of rigid tactics. We don't complain all day about it. some legions have several drawbacks when attempting to play certain styles, like BA, DA or Salamanders.

 

This game is also more restrictive because it also represent what legions used to be before the Codex Astartes. Legions were not know for their flexibility in small scale.

 

To address this "All legions had all the tools, I should be able to do what I want" mentality, it was true... until their primarchs came around and messed with their legion's organization. Once they decided on the direction of their legions, some tools fell out of favour, and some even over specialized to the point of no longer being able to efficiently practice certain styles of warfare. Like the Iron Hands or the Space Wolves for example.

 

This game is played on a larger scale.

 

This means that those 1,500 or 1,850 points 40k standards do not cross over well. It is not designed nor intended to be a skirmish game outside of zone mortalis.

 

Great write up Wolf Pack. The fact that its a historical setting instead of a competitive sandbox is the reason I'm moving towards this direction, as sadly 40K, or at least my own meta, has devolved to "who has the biggest guns" for the "least amount of cost", regardless of Chapter or force.

 

That being said, I always thought Space wolves were somewhat more independent in terms of individual squads, not to the point of MSU, but in terms of packmates and command structure. Oh well, I'll just have to think of the Praetor as a Jarl instead. Below Jarl, I don't really see much anyway beyond Russ and Russ's Varangyr guards. As Grievux mentioned, the spirit of the rules isn't all that bad really.

 

I think I better break out of the HQ limitation tunnel vision everyone seems to only see, and remind that Hunter's Gait along Bestial Savagery is awesome, not to mention ability to prevent Infiltrators within 18" regardless of LOS.

 

FINALLY, THE SUPERIOR NOSES OF THE VLKA FENRYKA IS ACKNOWLEDGED IN CRUNCH! LOL, kidding, but for a long time, I've thought the crunch for Wolves superior sense of smell would never be represented in fluff.

 

This bears to mind the battle of Alexxes when the Wolves were being hammered by the Alpha Legion. The sneaky bastards tried numerous time to board and infiltrate the Wolves for their usual backstabbing "I am Alpharius" shenanigans, but despite their replication of armour and even faces to resemble the Wolves iconography almost perfectly, it didn't work. Somehow the Wolves could always tell who wasn't a Wolf. Even if the marine was fully sealed in its armor.

 

 

 

This also happened to a Dark Angel infiltrator who was sneaking around gathering intel. One sniff and a Wolf Legionnaire immediately knew something was off, which became immediately apparently when the helmet came off.

 

 

 

[apologist]

That being said, I always thought Space wolves were somewhat more independent in terms of individual squads, not to the point of MSU, but in terms of packmates and command structure. Oh well, I'll just have to think of the Praetor as a Jarl instead. Below Jarl, I don't really see much anyway beyond Russ and Russ's Varangyr guards. As Grievux mentioned, the spirit of the rules isn't all that bad really.

 

 

Like the Centurion being called a 'Claw Leader' within the Vlka Fenryka, the Praetor choice is specifically noted to be called a 'Wolf Lord' – i.e. a Jarl  :)