Space Wolves Heresy HQ limitations

[Jackalwolf]

I think you misunderstand. I can build, paint and play an army while critising unnecessary and cumbersome restrictions on my imagination.

 

In fact I've made my way to Chicago to do just that this weekend.

 

@Grieux

 

A compulsory choice is a defined term. They are the black boxes on the force organtization chart you choose. So no you can't take extra troops to satisfy both.

 

Yes, that's fair, but the ruling with Russ is that you can actually swap to veterans since his specific rule overrides the legion general one, I can't see how it's so different that the RoW compulsory overrides our less specific compulsory restriction.

 

After all, all legions must take a troop choice as compulsory but noone says it's contradictory with the compulsory requirement to take vets or termies in the Pride RoW, they just understand one supersedes another.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if that's the final ruling when a very needed faq comes our way, but I wouldn't be surprised if your interpretation is correct either.

 

I really think most of the anger coming from our SW community is coming from how vaguely and poorly worded our rules are. I mean, it's even getting to me and I'm normally Mr Positive Good-vibe.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Well, Russ makes any RoW into the ToW + pride of the legion does he not?

 

Does he though? The same issue as with Rites is also applicable to Russ's rule. One rule turn unit X into compulsory troops, rule Y renders all troops other than Grey Slayers support units. Which takes precedence? There's no indication in the rules as written.

 

 

Iron Hands, can't make full use of several rites of war because of rigid tactics. We don't complain all day about it. some legions have several drawbacks when attempting to play certain styles, like BA, DA or Salamanders.

Yes, you're right, IH can't take 2 (Sky Hunter Phalanx and Drop Assault Vanguard) and struggle with Angel's Wrath. Salamander have no restrictions other than no Destroyers/Moritats. BAs, while the vehicle limitation is harsh (and something I'd have preferred not to be included), doesn't seem to automatically forbid taking any Rite, though Armoured Breakthrough is probably the most difficult to build. The DAs don't seem to have any restrictions at all in their LA rules to limit army composition.

 

Contrast to the Wolves, which (assuming the harsher interpretation of the badly written rules) can only take 3-4 of the generic Rites period. And even with a more liberal interpretation, are forbidden from some that the 'it's fluffy' excuse just doesn't wash (like Fury of the Ancients, the Wolves' unique alternate consuls should count).

 

 

To address this "All legions had all the tools, I should be able to do what I want" mentality, it was true... until their primarchs came around and messed with their legion's organization. Once they decided on the direction of their legions, some tools fell out of favour, and some even over specialized to the point of no longer being able to efficiently practice certain styles of warfare. Like the Iron Hands or the Space Wolves for example.

Sorry, but this is underplaying just how harshly the Wolves are being restricted, even beyond the RoW. Jump Pack focussed assault force? ZM Breacher force? Nothing in the fluff suggests that the VI wouldn't be using such forces, yet they're verboten because of the Grey Slayer tax. GS replace Legion Tacticals? OK fine, but only being able to take GS is selling both the players, and the Legion's fluff short imo. So many cool, thematic army builds nixed, because of the damn GS tax.

[Atia]

 

I think you misunderstand. I can build, paint and play an army while critising unnecessary and cumbersome restrictions on my imagination.

 

In fact I've made my way to Chicago to do just that this weekend.

 

@Grieux

 

A compulsory choice is a defined term. They are the black boxes on the force organtization chart you choose. So no you can't take extra troops to satisfy both.

 

Yes, that's fair, but the ruling with Russ is that you can actually swap to veterans since his specific rule overrides the legion general one, I can't see how it's so different that the RoW compulsory overrides our less specific compulsory restriction.

 

After all, all legions must take a troop choice as compulsory but noone says it's contradictory with the compulsory requirement to take vets or termies in the Pride RoW, they just understand one supersedes another.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if that's the final ruling when a very needed faq comes our way, but I wouldn't be surprised if your interpretation is correct either.

 

I really think most of the anger coming from our SW community is coming from how vaguely and poorly worded our rules are. I mean, it's even getting to me and I'm normally Mr Positive Good-vibe.

 

 

As I understand it:

 

- Grey Slayers are the only troop choices that are compulsatory in the basic list - tactical squads and breachers become support units. Not sure about the wording but that's how I would play it.

- If you choose a certain RoW, lets say PotL your veterans and terminators turn into compulsatory troop choices too and you have to take them.

[Baluc]

Its not an apples to apples comparison. The remaining legions don't have a clause adding rules to units. They have the support squad rule that excludes units from filling the compulsory troops slots. It is easy and make sense. Units without it are available as your first 2 troops.

 

Where Pride and LA:SW collide is that we have 2 must statements. It doesn't matter if Vets or Terminators actually gain support squad or not. The issue is LA:SW says we must take grey slayers as compulsory troops, and Pride/AB/DAV all say you must take x unit as compulsory troops.

 

You are a good child, and do exactly what your parents tell you to do all the time. On the way to the kitchen your mom stops you and says Their are 2 empty jugs in the kitchen, fill them both with water. Before you get there, your dad stops you and says fill them both with juice.

 

What do you do?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Continuing playing my Raven Guard until FW makes my glorious doorstop a useable book

[Baluc]

Their weakness is generally overstated, I think they are firmly around the top of mid tier. They just lack builds which will mean after a 10 or 15 games people will get bored of playing with and against them sadly.

[Runefyre]

Personally, because of the precedent (or rather contradiction) Leman Russ set combined with my lack of empathy towards FW regarding their lack of coherent rules-writing skills I'm going to interpret it as Grey Slayers are compulsory unless Leman Russ or a RoW that modifies the required troops choice is taken. I'm hoping this is RAI, it makes sense in my head.

[Lord Blackwood]

Personally, because of the precedent (or rather contradiction) Leman Russ set combined with my lack of empathy towards FW regarding their lack of coherent rules-writing skills I'm going to interpret it as Grey Slayers are compulsory unless Leman Russ or a RoW that modifies the required troops choice is taken. I'm hoping this is RAI, it makes sense in my head.

I mean whos gonna argue with you ?   My lists are built around veterans because im taking Russ and if someone said " you shouldnt play that way because of the grey slayer thing" Id probably just not play that person , or attend that event.  Or just say " alright"  and put my 7 imperial knights down at 3k  and say  "  You  did this to yourself"  

[Grimtooth]

30k Wolves don't play like 40k Wolves and that seems to be the underlying issue with the RoW and LA: SW rules and restrictions that people ar finding hard to grasp. Having read through Inferno several times now, the 30k Wolves waged war almost completely different then the 40k Wolves do.

[Lord Blackwood]

30k Wolves don't play like 40k Wolves and that seems to be the underlying issue with the RoW and LA: SW rules and restrictions that people ar finding hard to grasp. Having read through Inferno several times now, the 30k Wolves waged war almost completely different then the 40k Wolves do.

I  do not think  this is where the disconnect is happening at all nor do I  see where you are getting this idea from. 

 

The issue is that the restrictions placed on list building for 30k  wolves are a bit more of a constraint than  is seen in other 30k  legion lists.

 

This issue has literally nothing to do with 40k wolves it had nothing to do with the differences between the legion and the chapter but instead on how the legion is built ( FROM A TABLE TOP GAMING STANDPOINT)   vs other legions. 

 

 

[Grimtooth]

 

30k Wolves don't play like 40k Wolves and that seems to be the underlying issue with the RoW and LA: SW rules and restrictions that people ar finding hard to grasp. Having read through Inferno several times now, the 30k Wolves waged war almost completely different then the 40k Wolves do.

I  do not think  this is where the disconnect is happening at all nor do I  see where you are getting this idea from. 

 

The issue is that the restrictions placed on list building for 30k  wolves are a bit more of a constraint than  is seen in other 30k  legion lists.

 

This issue has literally nothing to do with 40k wolves it had nothing to do with the differences between the legion and the chapter but instead on how the legion is built ( FROM A TABLE TOP GAMING STANDPOINT)   vs other legions. 

 

 

 

No because if you look back in this thread as well as the tactica thread people are complaining that they cannot run armored spearheads of tanks or a jarl and his best and baddest in the form of a Varangyr bodyguard.  The VIth does not fight that way in 30k, period.  This is backed by their doctrines of battle and how they fight in Inferno and it is how it plays out on the tabletop with the RoW and LA: SW rules.  Sure they can be cleaned up for clarity, but don't expect them to drastically take away what they have portrayed the 30K VIth Legion and how they go to battle.  That won't happen as we already have that in 40k.

[Lord Blackwood]

No because if you look back in this thread as well as the tactica thread people are complaining that they cannot run armored spearheads of tanks or a jarl and his best and baddest in the form of a Varangyr bodyguard.  The VIth does not fight that way in 30k, period.  This is backed by their doctrines of battle and how they fight in Inferno and it is how it plays out on the tabletop with the RoW and LA: SW rules.  Sure they can be cleaned up for clarity, but don't expect them to drastically take away what they have portrayed the 30K VIth Legion and how they go to battle.  That won't happen as we already have that in 40k.

 

 

1. You absolutely can do that armored spearhead is absolutely possible with space wolves ( Armored Breakthrough is also possible) 

2. You can absolutely take a Jarl and a tooled up Varangyr squad in a spartan theres nothing prohibiting you from doing that

3. Neither of those things are things that stem from the comparison to 40k  that you made. 

 

For the sake of argument , I will take my own Imperial Fists which are played as an Armored Breakthrough list , comprising of MANY tanks. In no place in extermination or any fluff other than my own works are the imperial fists shown as commiting large armored companies to engagements.  The idea ironically enough was inspired by the novel Tallan Ironclad , where I learned that the Iron warriors have Armored Divisions that have a "Master"  The armored breakthrough rite of war gave me a means to make my idea a reality , and the LA: Imperial Fists rules did not create any sort of barrier to my  lists design , infact  if anything the special characters gave me some very interesting curveballs to throw. 

 

But again thats just for the sake of argument. 

 

You made a statement that people are looking at the Vith and are upset because they do not play like they do in 40k  which is a baseless statement with no real weight behind it.  

 

I made a counter point that people are complaining because the Vith lack the flexibility that most other legions have.

 

Your rebuttle seems to state that people are complaining because the Vith lack the flexibility that most other legions have , but amusingly enough the things you cite are things the Vith can indeed do. 

 

I am not sure where your argument stems from , your initial point is incorrect  , yer counter argument is incorrect , and your justification holds no water when applied in the reality of the game system ?   

 

The HQ restriction is exactly that a restriction , the rules while not BAD are written poorly and require several clarifications to not hamstring the legion. 

 

you CAN come to an understanding with your opponent but that doesnt change the above at all. 

[NoLifeKing]

I would take grey slayers as my compulsory troop happily over those darn veterans.  

Oh and speaking of annoying restrictions, My Word Bearers can never, NEVER, field more than 1 support officer(if we're following the rules as written by FW), And there is nothing that can help me with it. Nothing.

[Lord Blackwood]

I would take grey slayers as my compulsory troop happily over those darn veterans.  

 

Oh and speaking of annoying restrictions, My Word Bearers can never, NEVER, field more than 1 support officer(if we're following the rules as written by FW), And there is nothing that can help me with it. Nothing.

Yer dislike of veterans is noted , but in the same breath veterans are far and away the most effective troop choice ( assuming you can make them truth )  with the broadest range of application and the highest level of tactical flexibility. 

 

That being said , thats not  the argument for here. 

[twistinthunder]

 

Well, Russ makes any RoW into the ToW + pride of the legion does he not?

 

Does he though? The same issue as with Rites is also applicable to Russ's rule. One rule turn unit X into compulsory troops, rule Y renders all troops other than Grey Slayers support units. Which takes precedence? There's no indication in the rules as written.

 

 

Iron Hands, can't make full use of several rites of war because of rigid tactics. We don't complain all day about it. some legions have several drawbacks when attempting to play certain styles, like BA, DA or Salamanders.

Yes, you're right, IH can't take 2 (Sky Hunter Phalanx and Drop Assault Vanguard) and struggle with Angel's Wrath. Salamander have no restrictions other than no Destroyers/Moritats. BAs, while the vehicle limitation is harsh (and something I'd have preferred not to be included), doesn't seem to automatically forbid taking any Rite, though Armoured Breakthrough is probably the most difficult to build. The DAs don't seem to have any restrictions at all in their LA rules to limit army composition.

 

Contrast to the Wolves, which (assuming the harsher interpretation of the badly written rules) can only take 3-4 of the generic Rites period. And even with a more liberal interpretation, are forbidden from some that the 'it's fluffy' excuse just doesn't wash (like Fury of the Ancients, the Wolves' unique alternate consuls should count).

 

 

To address this "All legions had all the tools, I should be able to do what I want" mentality, it was true... until their primarchs came around and messed with their legion's organization. Once they decided on the direction of their legions, some tools fell out of favour, and some even over specialized to the point of no longer being able to efficiently practice certain styles of warfare. Like the Iron Hands or the Space Wolves for example.

Sorry, but this is underplaying just how harshly the Wolves are being restricted, even beyond the RoW. Jump Pack focussed assault force? ZM Breacher force? Nothing in the fluff suggests that the VI wouldn't be using such forces, yet they're verboten because of the Grey Slayer tax. GS replace Legion Tacticals? OK fine, but only being able to take GS is selling both the players, and the Legion's fluff short imo. So many cool, thematic army builds nixed, because of the damn GS tax.

 

 

 

No because if you look back in this thread as well as the tactica thread people are complaining that they cannot run armored spearheads of tanks or a jarl and his best and baddest in the form of a Varangyr bodyguard.  The VIth does not fight that way in 30k, period.  This is backed by their doctrines of battle and how they fight in Inferno and it is how it plays out on the tabletop with the RoW and LA: SW rules.  Sure they can be cleaned up for clarity, but don't expect them to drastically take away what they have portrayed the 30K VIth Legion and how they go to battle.  That won't happen as we already have that in 40k.

 

 

1. You absolutely can do that armored spearhead is absolutely possible with space wolves ( Armored Breakthrough is also possible) 

2. You can absolutely take a Jarl and a tooled up Varangyr squad in a spartan theres nothing prohibiting you from doing that

3. Neither of those things are things that stem from the comparison to 40k  that you made. 

 

For the sake of argument , I will take my own Imperial Fists which are played as an Armored Breakthrough list , comprising of MANY tanks. In no place in extermination or any fluff other than my own works are the imperial fists shown as commiting large armored companies to engagements.  The idea ironically enough was inspired by the novel Tallan Ironclad , where I learned that the Iron warriors have Armored Divisions that have a "Master"  The armored breakthrough rite of war gave me a means to make my idea a reality , and the LA: Imperial Fists rules did not create any sort of barrier to my  lists design , infact  if anything the special characters gave me some very interesting curveballs to throw. 

 

But again thats just for the sake of argument. 

 

You made a statement that people are looking at the Vith and are upset because they do not play like they do in 40k  which is a baseless statement with no real weight behind it.  

 

I made a counter point that people are complaining because the Vith lack the flexibility that most other legions have.

 

Your rebuttle seems to state that people are complaining because the Vith lack the flexibility that most other legions have , but amusingly enough the things you cite are things the Vith can indeed do. 

 

I am not sure where your argument stems from , your initial point is incorrect  , yer counter argument is incorrect , and your justification holds no water when applied in the reality of the game system ?   

 

The HQ restriction is exactly that a restriction , the rules while not BAD are written poorly and require several clarifications to not hamstring the legion. 

 

you CAN come to an understanding with your opponent but that doesnt change the above at all. 

 

 

People seem to forget that rules you take at the beginning of writing an army list trump rules for the army list.

 

This has been the case since *at least* 4th edition (when I started).

 

Otherwise lots of Rites of War wouldn't work straight up.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Oh dear God, I had no idea this discussion was still ongoing. Instead, its turning out to be a rage thread against what the Vlka Fenryka can or cannot do compared to other legions, especially in terms of troop choices.

 

Come on guys, I only asked to confirm that my first HQ must be a Praetor, after which I can take any consul I like. I wasn't actually asking about the Grey Slayer troop limitation. You guys are seriously barking up the wrong thread.

 

Let it go guys.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Aww, but I visit this thread once a day to get my daily dosage of laughter.  

[Jackalwolf]

I think we're really not focusing on what's really Important: which shade of grey are we?

[Kasper_Hawser]

Aww, but I visit this thread once a day to get my daily dosage of laughter.  

 

don't make me sing THAT SONG guys. Every Legion has their limitations. Whether SW ones are worse or not is irrelevant, we're all playing a super expensive game in terms of points and money without the min maxing that defines 40K at the moment.

 

So don't make me call a certain ice queen who is Russ' secret wife on Fenris to freeze everyone. AFTER she sings. :P