Thematic armies

[Bartali]

 

Part of me wonders if the "thematic" element is hinting at a change to army construction that will move more in the AoS direction. In AoS you gain access to additional rules and equipment if your army draws entirely on factions from the same alliance (so think Armies of the Imperium, Chaos, Eldar etc) and an army built entirely from a single faction gains access to some more gimmicks as well as broadening its selection of units that can count for (in 40k terms) their Compulsory Troops in a CAD. It's the first thing that comes to mind anyway.

 

As for Command Points, one thing I recall is that Guilliman's debut batrep on Warhammer TV used a resource by that name. Essentially they were a (fairly sizeable) pool of rerolls that could be used to reroll any single die, with no limits on how many you could use per turn.

This would make lots of sense. Not sure how that would pan out. However, it would be nice to consider "thematic" as a list one one faction, 3 and 4 sets of allies in one list doesn't always seem like a "theme" imo.

 

 

Yup. I'd hate to think Azrael sitting in a pack of 75 Fenrisian Wolves would be considered thematic

[Waking Dreamer]

Isn't that pretty much exactly what the NSF already does? You can take only knights in TDA and deep strike up to half of them on turn one and the rest from turn 2 onwards.

 

Well you can deep strike with Strike Squad's PA too.

 

It seems by Codex design GW intended GK's to rely on the "Rites of Teleportation" special rule as a way to show their heavy use of Teleportation. Especially since they wont allow us to use Drop Pods. But it's just not that good. You get to roll for reserves on turn 1. That's pretty much it. You're no better at avoiding failed reserve rolls, scattering mishaps or surviving enemy fire before getting into assaults than your average army. For an army that only has 2 non-vehicle/transport units that aren't bound to foot-slogging (DKs/Interceptors), you'd think GK's rules for deep-striking would be more dependable...

 

Plus, an all TDA army (which can all inherently DS) is hard to come by with other SM chapters while it was basically one of the most common army set ups for GKs at one time. Giving thematic bonuses to a GK TDA army can make them competitive while maintaining a very uniquely GK trait - that every GK has access to TDA and therefore can deploy much more Terminators than other SMs, (but Terminators are sub-par currently - so have the new thematic buffs to actually make them better). Win-win!

[Quixus]

Well you can deep strike with Strike Squad's PA too.

I know, but woulnd#t that be a different theme?

 

It seems by Codex design GW intended GK's to rely on the "Rites of Teleportation" special rule as a way to show their heavy use of Teleportation. Especially since they wont allow us to use Drop Pods. But it's just not that good. You get to roll for reserves on turn 1. That's pretty much it. You're no better at avoiding failed reserve rolls, scattering mishaps or surviving enemy fire before getting into assaults than your average army. For an army that only has 2 non-vehicle/transport units that aren't bound to foot-slogging (DKs/Interceptors), you'd think GK's rules for deep-striking would be more dependable...

There are still things you can do without getting allies. for example start your 2-4 dreadnihts on the board and have at least one of the TDA guys in a baby carrier operate a comms relay, the others can shunt forwards and eliminate the opponents reserve manipulators (or any other priority target) while the Termiantors take care of the rest.

 

Plus, an all TDA army (which can all inherently DS) is hard to come by with other SM chapters while it was basically one of the most common army set ups for GKs at one time. Giving thematic bonuses to a GK TDA army can make them competitive while maintaining a very uniquely GK trait - that every GK has access to TDA and therefore can deploy much more Terminators than other SMs, (but Terminators are sub-par currently - so have the new thematic buffs to actually make them better). Win-win!

That is not really common for an faction at the moment. (Pure) Deathwing can't do it either.

[Gentlemanloser]

As for all TDA or even Dsing TDA, both the Dark Angels, and Space Wolves (with WG Terminators in Drop Pods) did it before we got the ability to in our 5th Edition Ward-Dex.

 

WGT were still the cheapest (Imperial) TDA at 33 points per, until we got our current Dex.

 

I wonder which Imperial army would win the 'theme' of Deep Striking Terminators, out of Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Grey Knights...

[Waking Dreamer]

As for all TDA or even Dsing TDA, both the Dark Angels, and Space Wolves (with WG Terminators in Drop Pods) did it before we got the ability to in our 5th Edition Ward-Dex.

 

WGT were still the cheapest (Imperial) TDA at 33 points per, until we got our current Dex.

 

I wonder which Imperial army would win the 'theme' of Deep Striking Terminators, out of Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Grey Knights...

 

If the theme is something akin to teleporting maximum Terminators into battle, it would be between GKs and Deathwing.

[Bartali]

As for all TDA or even Dsing TDA, both the Dark Angels, and Space Wolves (with WG Terminators in Drop Pods) did it before we got the ability to in our 5th Edition Ward-Dex.

 

WGT were still the cheapest (Imperial) TDA at 33 points per, until we got our current Dex.

 

I wonder which Imperial army would win the 'theme' of Deep Striking Terminators, out of Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Grey Knights...

 

Don't forget Blood Angels who have got turn 1 deep strike (with reserves re-rolls), reduced scatter and assault from deep strike spread across various formations and detachments.

 

Deep strike really needs to change for 8th ed (and not just as a formation/detachment bonus)

[Gentlemanloser]

While you could have DSing LR (Dante surfing one down!  Cherry Axe!), Bangles could never have pure TDA lists.

[Quixus]

While you could have DSing LR (Dante surfing one down!  Cherry Axe!), Bangles could never have pure TDA lists.

Before the Angel's Blade that is.

[Gentlemanloser]

Too many supplements and formations/datasheets tucked away in multitudes of places to keep up with.

Edit: I suppose with Unbound, everyone could now field pure TDA lists. ;)

I have a strong feeling that one of the three types of play in 8th will be Unbound by another name. ;)

[Bartali]

BA could field pure Terminator lists for a while now via Archangels detachment from Shield of Baal.

But yeah, too many detachments/formations. If it wasn't for 1d4chan (of all places) I'd loose track

[Waking Dreamer]

So basically GKs can field pure terminator lists easier than any other faction...which at least matches the lore respectably. All you need is the basic 7th ed. Codex and your CAD will allow us to field 6 units of terminators and 3 units of Paladins. 

 

That's not including the 3 Dreadknights and your HQ slots where pretty much anyone worth taking is in TDA anyway. Nice.

 

 

That's one possible theme very applicable to GKs - which Im sure majority of GK players could make work since there's AT LEAST 15-20 models of terminators/paladins in in your collection if you been building GKs for at least a couple years. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Well now that Logan Grimnar lost the ability to have WG as Troops, sure. ;)  It's easier for the GK.

 

Apart form Unbound, and all the TDA only Formations that let seemingly everyone field Pure TDA lists now...

 

Point was, before we had out 5th Edition Codex, both the Dark Angels and Space Wolves could *already* field pure TDA lists.

 

Without Unbound, or Formation shenanigans.

 

Our 5th Edition dex just let us keep pace.  Both our original Incarnation (way back when) and the Daemonhunters Codex didn't allow us to do that.

 

It's a sad mechanics/fluff disconnect that our Chapter, who has a Suit of TDA for every member (supposedly...) routinely fields PA units.  Because, in some case (none...) PA is better than TDA...

[Race Bannon]

I gotta agree that the PA additions to the GK was ... odd to me too.  I mean, I get it.  But it was still odd.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well to be fair to GW, the original Grey Knights were just Power Armour marines, and thier Terminators came later, when Terminators wee intorduced.

 

It's just the fluff / mechanics disconnect of the new (er/ish?) fluff.

 

Actually, with the fluff removal from the Ward dex to the current 'mini-dex', I'm not even sure if it states anywhere that we *do* have  suit of TDA for every GK.  could be another ret-con.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Considering it still states all members of the Chapter start their service in a Terminator squad, I'd say its still current. 

 

Regarding themes, I'd say the following are needed;

 

- A Brotherhood detachment, in the style of a Battle Demi-Company of Marines. Not dumb forced meme like the current Formation, but benefits for taking a force that represents a typical Brotherhood. 

- Nemesis Strikeforce reworked into a Terminator assault focused force (currently its just '1 less min Troops/FA max/Heavy max, 1 extra elite, Turn 1 Reserves'. 

- A Purifier detachment, representing a mass deployment of them. 

- A Dreadknight detachment, representing an extremis threat (like what was deployed on Fenris)

- A Dreadnought detachment (giving them some love is sorely overdue, they're even more ignored than in Marines)

[Phiasco]

^^^ Don't grey knights really not want to be interred into dreadnought armor? They'd much rather be buried in the monastery catacombs, right?

[Gentlemanloser]

You might start in a TDA Squad RD, but there might only be enough suits for some TDA squads.  With the rest of the GK in Purifier, Strike or Purgation PA.

 

If not, why on earth are Purgation squads in PA and not the far better (and much more suited for their 'role') TDA?

 

I know balance is the answer.  But...

[Myunch]

You might start in a TDA Squad RD, but there might only be enough suits for some TDA squads. With the rest of the GK in Purifier, Strike or Purgation PA.

 

If not, why on earth are Purgation squads in PA and not the far better (and much more suited for their 'role') TDA?

 

I know balance is the answer. But...

I still believe the true Purgation squads should be TDA GK dual wielding the heavy special weapons.

[Gentlemanloser]

And like Walkers/MC able to shoot both!

Even if you make that ability a Squad based Psychic Power. Why hello Astral Aim!

Edit: Ah man. I'd be all over GKT figures with two of the old school wrist mounted Psycannons!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

You might start in a TDA Squad RD, but there might only be enough suits for some TDA squads.  With the rest of the GK in Purifier, Strike or Purgation PA.

 

If not, why on earth are Purgation squads in PA and not the far better (and much more suited for their 'role') TDA?

 

I know balance is the answer.  But...

 

No, as far as I know the 7th edition codex still states that the Chapter can technically deploy every battle brother in Aegis TDA if they wanted to. 

 

Probably tactical flexibility. Terminators are slow and can't fight in certain places just due to their size and lack of mobility. They're specialised assault troops. Also, GW have been making and selling PAGK since 3rd edition, so they want to have a use for the models. 

 

Purgators really need Relentless. It would mitigate all of their issues in one go. I'd also give every GK Deepstrike, because its absurd only Terminators and Strikes/Interceptors have it. 

[Gentlemanloser]

I couldn't find reference to it in the 7th edition codex.

 

That's the point though. GK were never a full tda chapter. Not until the ward dex.

 

So GW have PA minis for GK and always have had.

 

But it's just a nonsensical shoe horn to continue to push said PA if you change the fluff to give everyone the far superior TDA... and have it by default the moment you join the chapter.

[Quixus]

BA could field pure Terminator lists for a while now via Archangels detachment from Shield of Baal.

But yeah, too many detachments/formations. If it wasn't for 1d4chan (of all places) I'd loose track

Care to post a link?

Well now that Logan Grimnar lost the ability to have WG as Troops, sure. It's easier for the GK.

Logan can no longer make them troops, but who needs troops? The company of the Great Wolf (i.e. Logan) detachment can be filled with WGTDA only.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I couldn't find reference to it in the 7th edition codex. 

 

That's the point though. GK were never a full tda chapter. Not until the ward dex. 

 

So GW have PA minis for GK and always have had.

 

But it's just a nonsensical shoe horn to continue to push said PA if you change the fluff to give everyone the far superior TDA... and have it by default the moment you join the chapter. 

 

Original Grey Knights were only Terminators, IIRC. 

 

It's not a nonsensical shoehorn, TDA has real limitations that can't be overcome. It's as specialised as a jump pack or a Devastator, you can't push them into roles or tactical situations they aren't suited to. Grey Knights just tend to fight a lot of bloody, brutal assault warfare due to the nature of their foe and preferred anti-Daemon strategies (ie stab them in the face with warp-powered swords and banish them). TDA is suited to that kind of warfare, but if the Grey Knights couldn't adapt to other kinds of conflict, they'd be useless in their role. Hence why PA squads exist, its to fulfill different roles. 

 

Now, are those PA squads functioning as intended on the tabletop? No, of course not. I'd only say Interceptors work as intended, because GW hasn't found a way to screw them up yet (besides the general nerf to 'you are allowed one power per turn'). But you can see what their purpose should be. Strikes should be pathfinders, setting up on key strategic points and holding ground so other elements can advance securely. Purifiers should be anti-horde specialists with a viable delivery system (the former they do very well, its the latter that's so abysmal). Purgators should be mobile fire support that can advance where Dreadnoughts and tanks can't. 

[Gentlemanloser]

No mate. Original incarnation was just a pa marine chapter that could take an inquisitor as hq.

 

IIRC the GK predate (rules wise!) The crayon and release of tda.

 

There is literally no situation where TDA is not the better choice for a purgation squad.

 

They are designed to move up alongside a gk force providing mobile fire support.

 

A role designed for TDA.

[Bartali]

BA could field pure Terminator lists for a while now via Archangels detachment from Shield of Baal.

But yeah, too many detachments/formations. If it wasn't for 1d4chan (of all places) I'd loose track

Care to post a link?

Well now that Logan Grimnar lost the ability to have WG as Troops, sure. It's easier for the GK.

Logan can no longer make them troops, but who needs troops? The company of the Great Wolf (i.e. Logan) detachment can be filled with WGTDA only.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Blood_Angels(7E)#Archangels