Best way to beat Armoured Breakthrough RoW + Cortus spam?

[N1SB]

Edit - initially I asked about Armoured Breakthrough RoW, which had its own challenges, but the problem was compounded by Cortus Contemptor spam.  The real underlying, fundamental issue is Armour Value saturation.

 

I allied with an Armoured Breakthrough RoW + Cortus Contemptor spam list the other night.  This is the one where Predator tanks became Troops, so could score, then with Cortus Contemptors up the yin-yang so his whole army was pure Armour Value.  It was very impressive and I'm wondering how to best counter it.  The list I saw:

 

HQ was a Predator tank

Troops were spammed squadrons of pairs of Preds

Elites were a swarm, 9 Cortus Contemptors

Heavy had a squadron of a pair of Vindicators

 

Is the answer to spam Vultaraxes (for Mechanicum)?  I reckon I'll need at least 6 at 2000 pts just to hold off the Cortus Contemptors, so that's half my army spent purely as a counter-measure, and I think there will still be other worries.

 

Can a Custodes list, with a Tankibune infiltrating 3 squads of Shield Custodes with Solarite Gauntlets do better?  Or some other configuration?

 

The other counter, I think, is a mirror match: an Armoured Breakthrough of my own.

 

But what's the most efficient way to beat this list please?

[shandwen]

Orbital Assault? I imagine anything that can drop in plasma or melta at close range will completely nullify all his tanks advantages.

Perhaps a Malgorast SoH Orbital list with vets, a leviathian, and a squad or two of justarians?

[helterskelter]

Indeed, anything that can get behind those preds effectively and quickly will cause no end of trouble, as would lots of grav.

Bear in mind though, the lists can be just as flexible, and a sensible player wouldn't leave his backside too exposed to actions like that. Key tanks will likely have armoured ceramite too.

Laser vindis of your own, lightnings with kraken for the big toys, javelin/grav speeders, all those sorts of things will help too

[Lord Asvaldir]

It would help if we knew what army you are playing as so we could provide more targeted advice. 

 

I'd say any list with access to deep striking/outflanking will work well against armored breakthrough since the main tank of the list, predators, have such weak side/rear armor. They will go down incredibly quickly once you can hit those armor values. The alternate option of course is to just completely tailor a heavy anti armor list and take all the most effective toys for dealing with armor, a bunch of which helterskelter mentioned.  

[N1SB]

Thanks for asking, I have Mechanicum, Iron Hands, and I'm interested in making a Custodes list.

 

I didn't consider Deep Striking or Drop Pods much before, because it's quite specific with 30k (i.e. you often need a RoW, etc.)  I think you're right.  I'm almost thinking about the new KSons Guard of the Crimson King RoW now that you mentioned Deep Striking.

[LtDan]

For mech. Vultarxes, usarax with fists, myrmidons secs with grav, descructors with beamers, lightnings, reductor batteries of medusas. Lots to pick from

[N1SB]

Yeah, I'm getting the impression it's back to the classic Ordo Reductor tactic of "use MORE gun".

 

But I want to see if anyone has a better idea.  It's been 2 HH books since we got our Red Book, I was hoping tactics beyond "more dakka".  I do like the Deep Strike/Drop Pod suggestions, but I also recognise with Cortus Contemptors that'll charge the next turn.

 

Probably just going to add some Vultaraxes then, since I got nothing in my Fast Attack slot yet.  I'll brush off my Myrmidon Conversion Beamers as well as a squad of Grav Imploders I converted just this week:

 

http://oi65.tinypic.com/xpblsl.jpg

[helterskelter]

Against the contemptors Grav weapons may be your friend by leaving the difficult/dangerous terrain template in place for a turn. In some cases it's likely you'd coerce your opponent into going round as opposed to straight through.

[Withershadow]

Mortis contemptors don't have to move, Cortus contemptors have move through cover.  Contemptors Prime don't really see playtime.

 

Those imploders look ridiculous, by the way. So oversized, lol! :D

[LtDan]

Nothing wrong with more dakka

[N1SB]

I hear ya, "more dakka" is basically why we chose Ordo Reductor.

 

I swear, those Myrmidons just stuck the biggest, heaviest gun they could come up with to their arms.  I imagine Myrmidons see the real world like it's a MMO, where they want to get max DPS to get to the top of the leaderboards and complain no one else is drawing aggro from them.  So THAT's the gun they choose.

 

Still, always open to new ideas!  Big-guns-never-tire is my current plan since I'm already equipped for it.

[LtDan]

As we reductor don't like bots much. Deep strike a power fist ursarax squad into cover(ignore it due to walker in the ruin) and then jump out and smash tanks hulk style.

[LtDan]

But yeah myrmidons are awesome lol

[N1SB]

Back from another game.  Last time, I allied WITH the Armoured Breakthrough RoW + Cortus Contemptors.  This time, I allied AGAINST it to see the other perspective.  Really appreciate my opponent and ally both games so I could see both sides.

 

Our victory against the Armoured Breakthrough + Cortus Contemptors was through the skin of our teeth, though.  We did use brute force, in this case just more Chainfists or DCCW, but could have been more Dakka as well.

 

The real problem aren't actually the Predators per se; it's that they're all Armour Value-based.  I edited my initial post, as the Preds by themselves were annoying, but it's just that any model without good anti-tank capabilities AND in the right place at the right time were a write-off.  We were lucky punching our way to victory, but it'd have been easier by using moar gun.

 

I do want to accept new ideas, like exploring a more finesse approach with Deep Strike, but still really impressed.  I genuinely do feel this Armoured Breakthrough is quite versatile and even better than the popular Chosen Duty Vets-are-Troops RoW.  Thinking of studying it some more with Iron Hands and maybe Castrmen Orth or something, that'd be cool.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Mechanicum: Vultarax, Peltasts w/arc rifles, Myrmidon Destructors w/grav-imploders or Secutors w/double grav gun in a Triaros (can Ram with the Triaros as well), Reductor Medusas, Darkfire Castellax, Arlatax w/arc scourge (don't take things like Vorax, Ursarax or Thallax, Pred autocannons will chew them apart without mercy due to 4+ armour. Ursarax are especially out of luck, as they go after Cortus and thus will be Instant-Deathed by its S10 fists)

Legion: Medusas, Land Speeders w/grav gun+multi-melta (he can't Armoured Ceramite everything its too expensive), Javelins w/double HK missiles, multi-melta, cyclone (Deepstrike and hit rear AV), Lightning Primaris but with all lascannon mounts (you'll need it to be effective for more than one turn, also Armoured Breakthrough lacks AA), quad mortar shatter shells, Derodeo w/arachnus lascannon (Exoshock is a brutal rule)

Custodes: Outflank Pallas with adrathic devastators, hit rear AV. Arachnus heavy blaze cannon on Calladius is very handy. Cortus are actually a fantastic hard counter to Custodes, as they're dirt-cheap and Instant Death them before solarite gauntlets can trashbin it (they have to get lucky with their one meltabomb at Initiative otherwise). Stay out of melee, try and gap close with Preds and waste them with gauntlets. 

 

I'd say the key issue is to take out those Cortus Dreads ASAP. They're gonna be the biggest hard counter to obstacles the Predators can't handle (Vindicators can only nuke one thing per turn, and are highly vulnerable to be focused). If you can't Haywire or Lance/S9/S10 them in the front arc, get into side or rear with other options. Their worse deflector shield and weaker side AV is their biggest weakness. Unless he's spamming lascannon sponsons, Preds aren't that difficult to weather or deal with for most lists. It's still just an autocannon turret. 

[helterskelter]

Saying they lack anti air isn't strictly true, because you can put it in a list with very minimal thought, there's a few options AB can use to protect the skies

[depthcharge12]

I'm surprised you haven't opted for Head of the Gordon RoW! It's honestly the easiest way to deal with this army, yet remains competitive against others.

 

Things it has going for it:

 

1.) Graviton gun spam - why in the hell didn't you think of this!!!! :P swap out any and all infantry flamers in the army for graviton guns. Load up on support squads with graviton guns, vet squads with graviton guns, graviton guns everywhere!

 

Even though Cortusnoughts have MTC, I've usually seen people still roll 4's and 5's as their highest die. Honestly, some games down to units failing movement and charge distances. If you can slow down the Cortus spam even by a few inches each turn, it might win you the game.

 

 

2.) Outflanking tanks!!!!11!one - srsly tho, this is the hardest counter you can hurt your opponent with. Cortus dreads have terrible side and rear armor, not to mention a lack of ++ shield. Outflanking a few cheap autocannon predators to hit rear armor 10 or side armor 11 is pure money. An outflanking Sicaran could wipe a whole squad of enemy predators as well. I'd almost advice 90% of the time to keep your Sicaran off the board since the dude has las vindis. Keep giant squads of infantry on the board since it sounds like his tanks are tooled for AT and such. The infantry should weather the fire quite handily while remaining stubborn in your deployment zone.

 

It's a one two punch. Lure the opponent closer with your grav infantry spam, and then outflank tanks to obliterate side and rear armor.

 

 

3.) If that ain't enough, take a couple maniples of battle automata. I don't think it's limited to Castellax, rather anyone with battle automata in the name so just fact check me. You'd likely be able to bring a domitar for some added krak missile and WS4 S10 hits. Against Cortus dreads, you're likely to come out on top since it forces them to have disordered charges, and can hit the Cortus on a 4+, and has a ++ save where the Cortus does not.

 

 

Hope that helps

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Saying they lack anti air isn't strictly true, because you can put it in a list with very minimal thought, there's a few options AB can use to protect the skies 

 

 

Oh yeah they can do it, but they might not. It's point not spent on more tanks. 

3.) If that ain't enough, take a couple maniples of battle automata. I don't think it's limited to Castellax, rather anyone with battle automata in the name so just fact check me. You'd likely be able to bring a domitar for some added krak missile and WS4 S10 hits. Against Cortus dreads, you're likely to come out on top since it forces them to have disordered charges, and can hit the Cortus on a 4+, and has a ++ save where the Cortus does not.

 

Domitars are atrocious, take Arlatax instead (they can actually swing same time as Cortus, plus fast enough to charge it first). But yeah, Head of the Gorgon sounds pretty brutal. 

[twistinthunder]

EDIT: ignore, misread the page.

[N1SB]

Yeah, just a quick note to say I'm looking into Head of the Gorgon, working on potential lists with that now.  Thx for that.

[Gorgoff]

So...

Got my first Predator with Executioner Plasma Destroyer and a Mars Pattern beauty with Predator Cannon. First step to heaven... I mean... hell?

 

 

 

;)

[Rabidbunneh]

I think a selective Custodes infiltrate list could work, just keep your stuff fairly close together as you don't really want to be charged by more than 2 at a time. Sentinels can glance them to death as well, so you can chup away at them before your Solerite Gauntlets swing. Put in a Vexilla for the reroll on your Stubborn leadership and you should be able to wear them down over a turn or two, then the next wave of his Dreads charge on turn 3 as your second wave of Custodes are getting up the board.

[StaggerLee]

Ordinatus Saggitar. Plonk it next to calleb decima.

10" strength D ap1 blast that re rolls 1 on D chart and has +3 in total on vehicle damage table meaning always destroys a gun at the very LEAST.

[N1SB]

I think the Armoured Breakthrough RoW is genuinely quite good, congrats on your Pred.

 

How is the Ordinatus Saggitar vs. the Ulinator in general and vs. this type of threat?  This, btw, is the "nuclear option", these big guns have a really bad rep in my meta.  I'm willing to field one nonetheless if I have to face this Armoured Breakthrough + Preds all over the place again.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Ordinatus Saggitar. Plonk it next to calleb decima.

10" strength D ap1 blast that re rolls 1 on D chart and has +3 in total on vehicle damage table meaning always destroys a gun at the very LEAST.

 

Yeah well we don't all own Superheavies of that kind. That's like suggesting a good hard counter is 'take a Warlord'. Yeah, they do work, but that's not an army list. Or a strategy. It's just 'take an even more absurd unit'.