Custodes 30k vs 40k

[Vash113]

So now that the new 40k rules for the Custodes are out and I've had a read through them I find myself stuck in a dilemma of whether to build my Custodes for 30k or 40k. While the infantry wouldn't significantly change between the two (for now) all the support elements would be significantly different and to decide and maybe help anyone else considering the same I've decided to break down the pros and cons of both lists.

 

Custodes in 30k

 

Now the advantages to the Custodes in 30k are significant. First and foremost they have access to a wide array of units and weapons completely absent from the 40k Custodes. Adrathite spears with their str 5, ap 2, Instant Death, Armorbane, Gets Hot insanity, Melta Spears, Paragon Spears with their ap 3 bolters and Instant Death on 6s to wound. It's also important to note that the Custodes Guardian Spears in 30k have bolters that are assault 2, allowing them to shoot and then charge unlike the 40k Custodes. Then of course you have the hover tanks and support skimmers, the potent and unique Contemptor Dreads which in addition to their awesome weapons also have improved side and rear armor values. If that weren't enough 30k Custodes get Toughness 6, re-rolling charge range power lance armed Jetbikes mounting two shot Adraithic devastators, exothermic detonating bolt cannons or D3 shot Lascannons! Two wound Terminators with standard 4+ invulnerable saves and the ability to sweeping advance, not to mention access to torrent str 6 heavy flamers. The Custodes also get a variant squad armed with heavy bolters with secondary Adraithic beamers. Further the 30k Custodes have access to Solarite Power Fists and Power Claws in their squads giving the 30k Custodes the ability to damage heavy armor in assault and ranged.

In addition to those units and advantages the 30k Custodes also have access to more expensive elites known as the Hetaeron Guard with 3 Wounds standard, HQ Shield Captains with 4 wounds standard, as well as Constantin Valdor the character annihilator. Also I almost forgot that 30k Custodes are Initiative 5 standard while only the Shield Captain in the 40k squads is I5.

 

The downsides however are notable, the 30k Custodes lack Fearless or Eternal Warrior as standard which the Custodes in 40k have standard. Their Guardian Spears are only AP2 on the charge, while the 40k Custodes are ap 2 constantly. Currently the 30k Custodes also lack any assault transport, the Coronus Grav-Carrier can carry one more Custodian than the Venerable Land Raider in 40k but it lacks the Assault Vehicle rule. The shields of the Custodes in 30k are also arguably inferior to the 40k variants, offering a re-roll on the existing 5+ Invulnerable save all Custodes in 30k have and a -1 to hit in close combat. While the Praesidium shield is certainly an interesting piece of wargear the 40k variant confers a standard 3+ Invulnerable save, and if a player takes the Custodes Detachment with the max 3 squads and a Dreadnought all units get to re-roll Invulnerable Saving Throws of 1. Also while I think the 30k Custodes Dreadnoughts are awesome in their own right they do however lack access to standard ranged weapons. The 40k Custodes Contemptor is not great given it only has access to the Multi-Melta and Assault Cannon but those are still weapons the 40k Custodes don't get. I'd also consider the 30k Custodes Vexilla inferior to the 40k version, as it improves morale and adds 1 to the number of wounds for calculating victory in close combat whereas the 40k Aquila grants all members of the squad an additional attack.

 

To summarize:

 

Pros

-Jetbikes.

-Terminators with 4+ Invulns, Capable of Sweeping Advances and Torrent Flamers.

-Heavy Bolter armed Squads with secondary multi-use beamers.

-Custodians are Initiative 5 standard.

-3 Wound Elite Custodes.

-Custodian HQs with 4 wounds and a wide selection of wargear.

-Grav-Tanks and fast attack vehicles.

-Superior Dreadnoughts with unique and potent weapons.

-Alternate Guardian Spears with armorbane beamers, meltas and paragon variants.

-Standard Guardian Spear has Assault 2 Bolter.

-Access to master-crafted power fists and lightning claws.

 

Cons

-No Assault Transports

-Deep Strike rule must be purchased through wargear.

-Lack of fire-support Dreadnoughts.

-Arguably inferior version of Praesidium Shields.

-Inferior Guardian Spear close combat profile.

-Inferior Vexilla/Aquila standard.

-Custodes have 2 Attacks Standard.

 

Custodes in 40k

 

Ok now the Custodes in 40k are a much, MUCH smaller army list with much fewer options. That said I still think the list is fairly good with notable advantages over the 40k version. For one all 40k Custodes come standard with Fearless and Eternal Warriors, rules the 30k Custodes lack. The 40k Guardian Spear has a worse bolter with rapid-fire preventing the Custodes from shooting and charging but the close combat profile of the 40k Guardian Spear is better in that it remains ap 2 even after the first round of close combat while the 30k spears are only ap 2 on a turn in which the bearers charged. 40k Custodes also get automatic access to Deep Strike and come standard with power daggers opening up the option to take a Sentinel Warblade and knife and no shield for an extra close combat attack. 40k Custodes can also mix shields and spears in the same squad while in 30k the Sentinels and Guardian squads are two separate units with only the Hetaeron Guard able to mix weapon options.

The 40k Custodes get access to a Contemptor with a 5+ Invuln standard which doesn't decrease to a 6+ in close combat and which has access to the multi-melta and Kheres Pattern Assault Cannon. The 40k Custodes also get a Venerable Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport, while I'd have liked to see Venerable Redeemer or especially Crusaders as options the standard Venerable Land Raider does have some improvements. While pricey it ignores Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned results, has a 5+ Invulnerable Save, and oh had Adamantium Will and the Venerable rule which allows you to request your opponent to re-roll the result on the vehicle damage table though the second result must be kept. Also it has to be noted that the Venerable Land Raider gives the 40k Custodes a standard assault vehicle which the 30k Custodes lack. I also think the Vexilla/Aquila in 40k is superior to the 30k version as it grants an additional attack to all models in the squad with the armies of the Imperium faction, this includes any attached Independent Characters. I can see attaching Celestine to a squad of Custodes with a Vexilla and giving her and her Geminae Superior an additional attack as quite a bonus. If that wasn't enough bonus attacks the 40k Custodes are 3 attacks base while the 30k are only 2 attacks base.

 

The Custodes Detachment also as I said before allows you to re-roll Invulnerable Saves of 1 if three squads and a Dreadnought (the max) are taken and reduces the scatter distance on Deep Strikes by 1 D6 meaning you only scatter 1D6 not 2D6 when arriving from Deep Strike.

It should also be noted that in 40k the Custodes have a much wider array of allies to join and/or take along with them. I'm strongly considering a standard Combined Arms detachment which would give the Custodians Objective Secured, with Celestine as the HQ and the newly arisen Guilliman as the Lord of War.

 

On the negative side well... that should be obvious by now, no Jetbikes, no Terminators, no HQs, no Coronus, Caladius, Palas, special Dreadnoughts, beamer, melta or paragon spears, solarite power fists or claws, no heavy bolter squads. Oh and no Constantin Valdor.

To summarize:

 

Pros

-Better Guardian Spear close combat profile.

-Fearless, Eternal Warrior and Deep Strike as standard.

-Access to Assault Vehicle Dedicated Transport.

-Superior Praesidium/Storm Shields.

-Ability to mix swords and shields and Guardian Spears into a single unit.

-Shield Captains in Squads with additional attacks.

-Dreadnoughts with better Invulnerable Save and access to Kheres Assault Cannons and Multi-Meltas.

-Dreadnoughts can Deep Strike.

-Custodes have 3 Attacks Standard.

 

Cons

-No access to specialized weaponry either assault or ranged.

-Inferior armored Contemptor Dreadnought without access to unique weaponry.

-No dedicated battle-tanks, attack craft, Jetbikes, Terminators or ranged squads.

-No HQ characters.

-Custodes are Initiative 4, only Shield Captain is Initiative 5.

 

 

Conclusion

 

So hopefully you guys can see what I see, that while it initially appears that the 30k Custodes are far superior to the 40k list with far more options and access to special ranged and close combat weapons, better Dreadnought Armor, characters, Jetbikes, Terminators and so on and so forth. However when all points are tallied the 40k list has a number of significant advantages over the 30k list with some significant bonuses in their profile, I mean Fearless, Eternal Warrior and Deep Strike are quite enticing over the 30k list.

 

Honestly the thing that is most bugging me about the 40k list is the lack of an HQ, I really like having a model on the table that represents ME, the center-piece of the army and the notable leader of the force. I am itching to get my hands on the event exclusive Ixion Hale to convert into my own character and I dearly want to use him in 40k as well but the profile and options for characters in 30k are soooooooooo much better than just using him as a squad Shield Captain.

 

All things considered the 30k list allows for a very tough, flexible force with highly mobile support squads and unique weaponry. Meanwhile the 30k list allows for accurate and numerous Deep Striking units with solid invulnerable saves, Eternal Warrior and Fearless helping them stick around, as well as the ability to perform heavy armored assaults with Land Raiders allowing disembark charges straight into the enemy. Both lists allow for some interesting and solid playstyles but are distinctly different from each other. I kind of want to slowly build a force that can be used in both 30k and 40k I'm just frustrated that NONE of the vehicles are cross-compatible between the lists. Each purchase for the army other than core infantry would only advantage one list over the other and I'm also HUGELY excited for Custodes Terminators and would love to see them in 40k but I kinda doubt that will happen.

 

So what do you guys think? Which list do you think is superior/inferior if either is, which do you prefer and why and did I miss anything (I'm sure I must have missed something)?

[Seathal]

I have 20 Custodes, 20 Sisters, 2 Contemptors, 2 Land Raiders and 2 Rhinos waiting to be converted into a "Talons of the Emperor" 40k list but also to a 30k one.

I agree with you on most of these. To me, main differences:

• 40k is limited to a handful of units whilst 30k has more variety
• 40k can ally to a much wider array of lists whilst 30k is more limited
• 40k has amazingly powerful base stat lines and equipment all over, pretty much best "troop/basic" melee/tanky unit in the game. Shield-Captains with I5 and S6 AP2 weapons with 4 base attacks (+1 for charging and +1 for vexilla) and WS5 (with a certain LOW trait this can go up to 6) is a duelling beast and noone but the best characters in 40k will stand a single round of combat. As you mentioned T5 S2+ Fearless and Eternal Warrior with a base 5+Invul (3+ with shields) Re-rollable 1s (with CAD) is stupidly surviable even at 5x the cost of a combi weapon each.
• 40k vehicles are easier/cheaper to get and still provide a better transportation platform (Assault Vehicle, 5+ Invul, AV14 all around, BS5 twin-linked...)

 

• 30k has HQs ahd characters (Valdor is a beast), 40k does not (LOW has to be a "lowly" shield-captain)
• 30k has vets and can get more toys and specialized and customizable equipment and troops
• 30k has inferior transports but amazingly good grav-tanks
• 30k Custodians are just better at shooting and flexibility in exchange for durability and punch when assaulting, but still excell at CC
• 30k has amazingly awesome dreadnoughts, whilst 40k's contemptor is meant to fill the anti-AV13/14 role noone in the army can take

 

Solution I found: Why not both? This is what I did:

• Build a list as heavy on infantry as you can; Custodians are amazing models all over and have great stats to make them your core both in 30k and 40k.
• Ally them with Sisters, it's a fluffy alliance for both 30 and 40k and can give you the boost in number of bodies and the anti-psyk power you need.
• Get the "Talons of the Emperor" boxset. The price of a single unit of plastic custodians is not much lower than the full box and you get a LR, a Rhino, a Contemptor, a squad of Sisters and the codexes for both SoS and ACust. This is a way of getting some anti-vehicle and transportation power for 40k list without spending too much money. Convert/Paint the transport vehicles in a way you can use them for other Imperial factions like the Sisters of Battle or the Inquisition: Barroque, Gold and Bronze, Black/Red paint scheme and Aquilas should go fantastically with any of these factions.
• Focus on 30k dreads and vehicles because they are much more cool. Who knows, maybe we'll end up getting full rules for FWs Legio Custodes vehicles for 40k and they look fantastic. And even if you can't use them in 40k, you'll already have a nicely converted LR for them and can Deep Strike the rest quite reliably.
• Depend more heavily in DR and footslog in 40k because a basic unit of Custodes is much more reliable and survivable by its own in 40k, whilst 30k Custodes rely more on specializationa and interaction with other units and transports.

[Hrolf the Cunning]

I think the differences reflect the slightly different roles they seem to have in the different eras. While rare, the 30k custodes did, on occasion deploy in "mass" and their more varied list reflect this. Presumably the 40k custodes are fewer in number as the only one with the capacity to make them has been napping for 10k years and they suffered significant casualties in the heresy. They seem really designed as a small allied detachment seconded to a larger primary force. That being said, I think it is litfle lazy/unfortunate that none of the wargear options from 30k seem to have been included, unlikely that every one of their craftsmen and artisans died in the heresy

[Vash113]

I think the differences reflect the slightly different roles they seem to have in the different eras. While rare, the 30k custodes did, on occasion deploy in "mass" and their more varied list reflect this. Presumably the 40k custodes are fewer in number as the only one with the capacity to make them has been napping for 10k years and they suffered significant casualties in the heresy. They seem really designed as a small allied detachment seconded to a larger primary force. That being said, I think it is litfle lazy/unfortunate that none of the wargear options from 30k seem to have been included, unlikely that every one of their craftsmen and artisans died in the heresy

 

According to the fluff in the 40k Codex not only have the Custodes long been restored to their full allotted number of Ten Thousand but are numbered "ten thousand and more," in the fluff. It seems the 40k Custdoes are if anything far more numerous than they were in 30k where more than nine out of every ten were lost in the War in the Webway. 

 

And to Seathal yea I can see building the army for both, but like in my OP it just doesn't seem very efficient to me, particularly when most 30k Space Marine vehicles are still usable in 40k but for some reason Forge World hasn't released rules for the Custodes vehicles in 40k...

[Hrolf the Cunning]

Thanks Vash, I didn't realise that and it changes things substantially. It actually makes the differences make a little less sense (in universe). I'd like an explanation of how they manage to swing the "hand-crafted" angle of the custodes without the Emperor being able to use his hands...

[Vash113]

Thanks Vash, I didn't realise that and it changes things substantially. It actually makes the differences make a little less sense (in universe). I'd like an explanation of how they manage to swing the "hand-crafted" angle of the custodes without the Emperor being able to use his hands...

 

Well it's indicated that the Custodes were "hand-crafted" but not necessarily by the Emperor but by his most skilled gene-wrights and chirugeons and that process has simply continued. The Custodes are still drawn often from the dynasties of Terran elite, still take on new names upon the completion of their ascension and are still forged with the genetic data of the Emperor forged into their bodies, sons to him in much the same way as the Space Marines are the genetic "sons" to the Primarchs and if anything their numbers seem to have been increased.

 

The Codex also indicates that the Custodes have not been idle in the last 9000+ years going so far as to fight shadow wars across the Imperium away from prying eyes all to protect Terra.

 

The most interesting fluff indicates that the coming of Gulliman to Terra, a resurrected Primarch bearing the Emperor's sword, has galvanized the Custodes to take to the stars as Crusaders. The three hundred elite known as the Companions, the closest bodyguards of the Emperor, remain on Terra but the greater bulk of the Custodes have chosen to take to the stars as crusading warriors once more and now lead a new spearhead of the Imperium against the 13th Black Crusade and likely other threats besides. It also indicates that the Custodes have cast off the black they wore for the last 9000 odd years and switched back to their former royal red cloaks and robes.

 

In short I like the way this fluff is going, the Custodes have stood largely isolated on Terra for a long time, an army just waiting for an excuse to be unleashed and now that they have that excuse they bring their shocking numbers and incredible weapons and physical capabilities to war again, I like that.

 

What I don't like is that we get that resurgent theme of the Custodes but their options are very limited. Their "museum-armories" are the source of their ancient war engines but they lack and cannot seem to requisition any of the manifold current arsenal of Imperial war machines and yet the depth of the Custodes ancient armories are godhammer Land Raiders and minimal-option Contemptor Dreadnoughts. This was the perfect opportunity for a companion rules-set from Forge World allowing the Custodes to take some of their 30k war machines in 40k, even if in much smaller numbers like limiting them to one grav-tank per formation. It would still have been cool and really shown the relic status of their wargear.

 

Alternately if I'd been in charge of the release I feel I'd have argued for something a little more interesting than the standard Land Raider, for instance adding the Space Marine Command Tanks sprue to the kit and providing rules based on those options for the Custodes and Sisters of Silence relic vehicles. Now that would cut into the Warhammer World exclusivity of the kit but I 1) never liked that and 2) they could have left the Space Marine Command Tanks rules and options exclusive to that box and provided completely different rules for the Custodes kit, and moreover could have kept the command tank sprues as a limited run exclusive to the Talons of the Emperor box which we already know is a limited run. I'm already considering getting the sprues to upgrade a standard Land Raider to a Custodes Venerable one, with the aquila ring around the roof hatch, the eagle shaped dishes and the aquila casing for the hull-mounted heavy bolters I feel the sprue would really help the Land Raider stand out as distinct and decidedly Custodes looking. It would also have been cool if the Custodes had access to the grav-cannon hull weapon and twin-linked plasma guns for the Sisters of Silence Rhinos.

[Vash113]

On further review of the 30k and 40k rules I've noticed a few more differences:

 

First the 30k Custodes armor grants them Move Through Cover and they pack plasma and krak grenades. While they lack Fearless and Eternal Warrior they are able to move through terrain at normal speed and assault at normal initiative into cover. Given that the 40k Custodes lack Move Through Cover OR the typical Frag Grenades so ubiquitous to Imperial forces this is a notable advantage to the 30k Custodes over the 40k version.

 

Also I forgot to include some of the special rules on the Guardian Spears in 30k and 40k. In 30k the Guardian Spear has the Lightning Blows special rule which generates an additional attack for every 6 to hit in close combat. While the Custodes in 30k have fewer base attacks than the 40k Custodes they do have the possibility of generating additional attacks. A squad of five 30k Custodes would have 15 attacks on the charge, generating an average of 2.5 additional attacks. 40k Custodes though would have 21 attacks on the charge. 40k Custodes still clearly have an advantage here but Lightning Blows does help. However the 40k Custodes have a different special rule instead of Lightning Blows and that is Block, which allows the Custodes to once each per round roll to block an incoming attack, if they roll a dice higher than the to-hit roll of the attack then it's blocked. Now that could be very useful for blocking particularly dangerous attacks from Power Fists or other AP2 weapons that would deny their armor. Now the roll to block does have to be higher than the roll to hit and given that most opponents are going to be hitting the Custodes on 4's these attacks are only blocked on a 5 or 6 and that's before considering that some of those dangerous attacks will be rolling 5s, requiring a 6 to beat or roll 6's and be impossible to block. Ironically opponents with a higher WS (6 or higher) that hit on 3's will be easier to block. A squad of 5 Custodes in 40k will get 5 attempts to block and I could see this either having no impact on an assault or seriously disrupting an opponent's ability to hurt them. Low attack count units like Thunder Hammer Terminators might be particularly susceptible to this kind of disruption.

[Sete]

One interesting thing in the fluff is that the Custodes were also divided in chapters of a 1000.

 

I'm gonna work with this to paint mine Baltashar Gold, and only the companions will use Gold in my head fluff.

[Centurio]

Can the custodes use any superheavies besides titans in either 30k or 40k? I have an unassembled thunderhawk and I'd love to make a custodes thunderhawk...

[Vash113]

One interesting thing in the fluff is that the Custodes were also divided in chapters of a 1000.

 

I'm gonna work with this to paint mine Baltashar Gold, and only the companions will use Gold in my head fluff.

 

Where does it say that? I was reading through and the codex says the Ten Thousand retained that number even when the Legions were split into chapters of 1000, it does not say that the Custodes split into chapters themselves rather that they did not. I'll quote from page 6:

 

 

The Legions Astartes were divided into Chapters of a thousand. The Legio Custodes, though it kept its numerical strength of ten times that number, was reforged as the Adeptus Custodes before the time of the Second Founding, becoming castellans of the Imperial Palace whose sole and solemn duty was to protect the Emperor from final death.

 

No chapters in the Custodes.

 

 

Can the custodes use any superheavies besides titans in either 30k or 40k? I have an unassembled thunderhawk and I'd love to make a custodes thunderhawk...

 

They aren't expressly given any distinct Lords of War of their own. Though I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they do get some before long. We've already seen their "Heavy Dreadnought" and who knows what else Forge World is working on.

[Sete]

Nevermind misread. That's what happens when you read stuff after a night out xD

[Sete]

Can't edit:

Thanks for the correction Vash, still i think I'm going with Baltashar Gold. Love the colour.

But overall I'm disappointed with the codex.

Especially the lack of an IC, and how bland it is compared to the awesome 30k list?

Or asking for Grav stuff, but the option to take the elite squad, IC and regular troop squads, would make for a better army list, even without the gear selection.

Because of that i didn't buy the box.

[Vash113]

Nevermind misread. That's what happens when you read stuff after a night out xD

 

Re-reading the paragraph I totally see how that misread could occur.

 

Can't edit:

Thanks for the correction Vash, still i think I'm going with Baltashar Gold. Love the colour.

But overall I'm disappointed with the codex.

Especially the lack of an IC, and how bland it is compared to the awesome 30k list?

Or asking for Grav stuff, but the option to take the elite squad, IC and regular troop squads, would make for a better army list, even without the gear selection.

Because of that i didn't buy the box.

 

Gold is gold, I doubt anyone's going to throw a tantrum because you used a different gold for the armor. That said the Custodes do have some different armorial schemes according to the Forge World fluff, check out this boss dude:

 

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m307/Vash113/custodian-warder_zpsobs8jelc.jpg

 

That said I also totally agree that the 40k codex is disappointing. I think it still has some potent advantages over the 30k codex such as the better Storm Shields, Assault Transport and more Attacks that make the list quite potent if used in conjunction with other Imperial forces, but it doesn't really make for a diverse or effective list in it's own right.

 

However I do get the feeling that Forge World may well give us more in the months to come. There's a new Imperial Armor book slated to come out in the next few months and with Forge World steadily releasing more for the 30k Custodes and the 40k Custodes talking about how the Talons of the Emperor are going on Crusade and joining the wider armed forces of the Imperium it all leaves me with the impression that the Talons of the Emperor, both Sisters of Silence and Custodes, and maybe even the Ordo Sinister, may well be included in the next Imperial Armor book. If so I'd expect to see some 30k options get moved into 40k, even if with more limitations such as 0-1 Caladius per detachment or something. The Codex: Adeptus Custodes really feels to me like a stop-gap place-holder until the next Forge World book comes out, Fires of Cyraxus I believe it's called.

 

Now I could be totally wrong and honestly I'm only tentatively hopeful the 40k Custodes list will get expanded so I wouldn't hold your breath... but still, it could happen. Given that in the last couple of years we've gotten Harlequins, Genestealer Cult, Adeptus Mechanicus, Skitarii, Ynarri, plastic 30k, Sisters of Silence, Adeptus Custodes, 40k Primarchs AND it's almost certain we're soon to be getting a plastic Thunderhawk Gunship well... hey, anything's possible, I might even get some plastic Arbites I've been dreaming about for nearly two decades!

[Ishagu]

40k Custodes have better rules, but it's not a complete army unfortunately.

 

They need to ally with something else.

[Sete]

Wow Ishagu you managed to get an even worse avatar. Edited March 28, 2017 by Sete

[Charlo]

Wow Ishagu you managed to get an even worse avatar.

 

Didn't even realise it was you for a while... I like it.