Index Astartes WIP

[Akharin]

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[Zhiv]

Much debate has been had about 2nd founding DIY's, mostly due to this which has led to  this.

 

 

Don’t claim your chapter is part of the second founding
GW has the second founding locked, bar the missing seven Ultramarine successors which have never been named. Whilst it has been known for Black Library to crowbar a chapter into the second founding, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea which should be repeated.

 

That being said...

 

Keep in mind that the older belief of the inviabiliity of 2nd Founding DIYs is based upon the Apocrypha of Skaros, an in-universe copy of the Codex Astartes whose accuracy and/or legitimacy is, again in-universe, disputed. At this point, it is also well and truly buried under more relevant evidence to the contrary. The older Liber Guard's adherence to this, in my opinion vastly misunderstood, piece of lore was rather a bit of contention for me.


So the issue is not that the 2nd Founding is closed to your DIY, it in absolutely zero way is.

The issue is only that a reason is needed, as Foundings such as the 2nd/3rd, 13th, 21st, 23rd and 26th all come with additional baggage that begs justification.

 

That being said,

 

 

Don’t have your chapter formed from a forgotten company
Any company or detachment of a chapter which is separated from the main chapter for what ever reason will not create their own chapter just because they paint their armour a different colour and change their name. A company of Ultramarines will always be Ultramarines, and would be simply reabsorbed as soon as they made contact with Macragge.

Iron Hands, Raven Guards, and Salamanders were heavily decimated by the Istvaan campaign and would have had no reason to relinquish their battle brothers post heresy. Black shields might have fought together during the heresy, but I cannot see why they would have not returned to their parent legions.

[Badass_Spaz]

2nd Founding, from my understanding, isn't up for grabs unless you're doing one of the unnamed Ultramarines Chapters. Also, since you're taking from the already considerably depleted Ravon Guard, Salamander, and Iron Hands (Who were mauled, violated, and not even kissed good-bye on Istvaan V) I'd probably go another route... HOWEVER! I'm sure the appropriate narrative might justify it, it'd better be a work of art. While you yourself might like it, other 40K nerds might boot down your door.

Food for thought and no offense intended!

[Olis]

Personally, I would like to point out that recruiting from Forge Worlds is pretty much off the table under 99.9% of circumstances. They are the sovereign domain of the Mechanicus. But if you're willing to thoroughly explore the whys are wherefores of this situation, then some good writing could make it seem plausible. Still, I wouldn't recommend it. To be honest, you have it stated that the Chapter is fleet based. So, technically, you don't even need a recruitment world. I'd humbly suggest just jettisoning the recruiting world altogether and seeking an alternative reason to the AdMech influence if you wish to keep it. 

[LancsHotpot90]

I like the premise of this idea and them being second founding doesn't particularly bother me personally however, I think with the second founding being set in stone lore-wise you'll be fighting an uphill battle with this.

 

As a suggestion, why not have them as made up from remnants of some Chapters from a later Founding? You could then run wild with their back story, the scope of what you could come up with would be immense! Explore things like how does the different aspects of the chapter work together? Or don't they? Is there friction between the different elements? Or could they be divided into different specialists?

[Akharin]

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[Draakur]

Sounds like you're on a better journey, now :) That said, a lot of your premise has been scrapped as a result - do you have a defining theme or feel you want to remain and carry on through from the original idea? Or are you going to 'start again' for the most part?

[Akharin]

Sounds like you're on a better journey, now That said, a lot of your premise has been scrapped as a result - do you have a defining theme or feel you want to remain and carry on through from the original idea? Or are you going to 'start again' for the most part?

Thank you.

Well, involving so much GW lore to equal what I wanted was too much. Que sera sera.

Elements may be preserved, but in a minor way. So, yes, starting over again. That is what drawing boards are for, right?

[Draakur]

I actually REALLY like that colour scheme. Sometimes colour alone doesn't necessarily do the job, and it's the partitioning that sells it. Black and gold is always a nice combo to start with, but I really like this set up :)

[Akharin]

I actually REALLY like that colour scheme. Sometimes colour alone doesn't necessarily do the job, and it's the partitioning that sells it. Black and gold is always a nice combo to start with, but I really like this set up

Yes, I agree. I have been sorting through the many color patterns in the SM Successor Chapters booklet.

[Draakur]

Somebody scanned up (I think) every page of that booklet and posted them in the Index Astartes forum. I'll eventually fork out and get the lovely hard copy, but for now I just use the resource here. Jealous :tu:

 

Again though, dig that scheme. It's vaguely reverse-Scythes :) Actually gives me an idea... if you don't mind I may go for something similar, though with a few slight differences and grey rather than black.

[Akharin]

Somebody scanned up (I think) every page of that booklet and posted them in the Index Astartes forum. I'll eventually fork out and get the lovely hard copy, but for now I just use the resource here. Jealous

Again though, dig that scheme. It's vaguely reverse-Scythes Actually gives me an idea... if you don't mind I may go for something similar, though with a few slight differences and grey rather than black.

I found the Index Astartes Successor Chapters Gallery as you've mentioned. It's in the Codex SM forum.

It is similar to the Scythes! I almost went with solid gold pads which would have completed the negative-Scythe look. With about a hundred patterns and schemes, there are bound to be a few similarities. If any of my pondering give you any ideas, go for it. That is why we're all here. By the time I get done, I may have switched to blue and white by then.

[Ferrus Manus]

Some interesting ideas here, I like the anonymity angle. Does this mean they fight with stealth tactics or are they still fairly codex?

 

Also, why so few marines? There seems to be a lot of chapters floating around which are vastly under strength, especially when you consider that to lose four or five marines in a battle is considered costly to a Chapter.   

[Akharin]

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[joschlumpf]

This whole "identities unknown"-thing remembers me of the Alpha Legion. The Immortals could easily be former Alpha Legion Marines, separating from their old legion. While strange, it´s totally possible, they didn´t betrayed the Emperor with the same "reasons" like the rest. Also that makes no problem with the foundingtime.

But that´s just a real strange thought of mine

[Zhiv]

I'll also vouch on liking that color scheme. It's unique, has great contrast and will be only relatively pain in ass to paint. 

 

The 'unknown chapter master' bit is bit iffy, as there are only so many senior officers in the chapter and well, the guy who's missing is obviously the guy the senior captains selected. :P   Even with everyone's identity being secreted.

 

Also two general questions.

 

How does the chapter see Emperor / How is the chapter cult? 

[Akharin]

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[Dizzyeye01]

What might be a good idea is to put aside for the moment certain things like geneseed etc and focus on the idea of the chapter itself? Are they like the knights of old in their shining armour? Are they brutal killers who are little more than monsters? Nail that down and then everything else will start to fall into place and your chapter will have a character so to speak.

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

I am liking the anonymity the chapter maintains to outsiders, but I am wondering how this causes them to interact with other instututions of the imperium (for instance, Ordo Xenos inquisitor comes calling and asks to speak to sergeant XYZ to nab his squad for attacking a small space hulk. Captain [who may be dressed as regular marine, if the all-are-equals thing applies to armor decoration] says "sergeant who? We do not give names to outsiders, I am afraid we cannot help you. I am aware that this is an outlandish situation, but it is the first that came to mind. A more likely scenario would be an imperial guard general trying to coordinate a campaign and getting massively baffled by the lack of effective communication).

 

(Also, as an aside, you may consider simply sigging Alea Iacta Est to save yourself the trouble of doing that in every post-I think that's the whole point of the sig. :tu: )

[Akharin]

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[Akharin]

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[Akharin]

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[Akharin]

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[Lysimachus]

Would I be right in assuming these guys are probably IH Successors? Given the name is also that of IH Legion Medusan veterans, plus the extra tech implants that allow them to 'live on' in new Intiates would likely have to have had some input from the AdMech?

 

Perhaps this could be part of the explanation of where this tech came from, an experiment by the AdMech of the newly formed Chapter's local Forgeworld?

 

There probably should be some kind of drawback to the process as well? If it was an unarguable success, surely they would tell everyone about it and every Chapter would want to use it (and hence it would be part of official Space Marine fluff). Perhaps the process is patchy in some way, leaving holes in the memories because it's too much info for their minds to hold? Maybe some go horribly wrong and you get Marines suffering with multiple personalities?

[Boldthreat]

Would I be right in assuming these guys are probably IH Successors? Given the name is also that of IH Legion Medusan veterans, plus the extra tech implants that allow them to 'live on' in new Intiates would likely have to have had some input from the AdMech?

 

Perhaps this could be part of the explanation of where this tech came from, an experiment by the AdMech of the newly formed Chapter's local Forgeworld?

 

There probably should be some kind of drawback to the process as well? If it was an unarguable success, surely they would tell everyone about it and every Chapter would want to use it (and hence it would be part of official Space Marine fluff). Perhaps the process is patchy in some way, leaving holes in the memories because it's too much info for their minds to hold? Maybe some go horribly wrong and you get Marines suffering with multiple personalities?

 

I think this approach if closer to what I would want to see.  We already have a name that connects back to an ancient Iron Hands unit type.  It would also allow him him to re-incorporate this idea of a Shattered Legion war-band that he was initially going for.  Lets get honest for a minute on this subject.  Many people on this board dislike when people try to shoe-horn in new 2nd Founding Chapters.  And there is some good reasons for that; but that doesn't mean it should be set in stone.  In fact I would argue that of all the Loyal Legions, the 10th is the perfect Legion to have a 2nd Founding Chapter for. 

 

The new fluff is clear, some Iron Hand war-bands did go off on their own:

 

 

Initially sent reeling and psychologically devastated, the Iron Hands Legion's survivors fractured, and the full story of what happened to its scions remains clouded to this day. It is known, however, that some Clans re-organised a council of Iron Fathers on Medusa to take charge of the ravaged Legion, and sped the recruitment and creation of new Space Marines from the extensive stores of gene-seed kept there with the goal of rebuilding the Legion. Alongside this, it is widely believed that in the aftermath some Iron Hands units and, in some cases, entire Clans shunned the Medusan Iron Council's assumed authority and went their own way, consumed by their own hatred and need for revenge. These fractured forces fought their own war and it is widely believed some delved into the use of dark and forbidden forces from humanity's ancient past to do so, although this has been strenuously denied since by the Iron Hands Clan Council.

What cannot be contested, however, is that other lone Iron Hands and small scattered groups cast off their Legion's livery entirely and either fought on alone or went Renegade -- Iron Hands no more. Regardless of the hidden truths of these terrible times, the Iron Hands Legion in the years that followed the Drop Site Massacre, and largely under the auspices of the Medusan faction, managed to re-enter the fight against the Traitors during the Horus Heresy and Great Scouring with devastating results on several outer worlds, but it was as a shadow of its former strength; no longer a Space Marine Legion whole, united or even entirely sane.

 

Lets build off of that.  What if the Immortals are a Chapter of Space Marines descended from a long-forgotten Iron Hands Clan-Company that shunned the Iron Counsel and went off on their own to take the fight to the traitors?  Now we have a legitimate claim at a 2nd Founding Chapter that has access to some serious ancient technology.  That is an angle I would definitely want to read about.  Especially if there was some kind of long-standing feud with the Iron Hands Chapter over some ancient issue..  

 

These memory cores would be just as important and sacred as gene-seed.  Which do you reclaim when time forces you to choose?  Would Apothecaries have to have some kind of cross-training with Techmarines to do this?  This could open up organizational changes that could be really interesting.  

 

I also agree with LySiMachus regarding a flaw.  What if more and more marines are being overloaded by these memories?  What if certain memories are forgotten on purpose... opening the door to some pretty neat story telling ideas.  I think you have a really unique idea with this Chapter Akharin, and I think you can still utilize a lot of your original ideas.

 

Keep it up.