Decree 87E-1258-BT-8000. Is this over the top or plausable?

[Rayanne979]

 

 

I'm finding myself at a crossroads.

Although i like the idea of a chapter having secret orders that might never come to pass, (Something like Order 66 in Star Wars) but,

I'm not sure about this particular idea.

 

Is, what i've wrote below, over the top or plausable?

 

Keep it or Purge it?

Plausable or Heresy?

 

 

 

 

Decree 87E-1258-BT-8000

 

 

Somewhere before the 20th Founding the High Lords of Terra heard the persistent rumours about the Black Templars containing up to 8.000 Space Marines.

Worried about a Chapter reaching Legion strength, but unable to prove anything, it was decided to set a contingency plan in motion; Decree 87E-1258-BT-8000.

 

Decree 87E-1258-BT-8000 consists of a group of Space Marine chapters with special orders.

Should those orders ever be executed, the Black Templars would be Executed.

This specialized group consists of:

 

Crimson fists

The Crimson Fists have destroyed Space Marine Chapters before. They are even known as “Lapdogs of the Inquisition”.

 

Space Wolves

Space Wolves are rumoured to be the executioners of the 2 missing Primarchs and their Legions.

 

Iron Hands

A strong group like the Black Templars falling would rouse an unprecedented zeal, to eradicate the weak, from the Iron Hands.

 

Ultramarines

It’s quite impossible to think the Ultramarines wouldn’t be involved.

 

Imperial Fists

Although the Imperial Fists aren’t normally known to erase chapters, it’s the Founding Chapter of the Black Templars, thus one would expect them to be involved.

 

Imperial Lions & Shadow Lynx

Although the Imperial Lions have split up into 2 separate chapters called the Imperial Lions and the Shadow Lynx, both have retained the orders of Decree 87E-1258-BT8000 and will act when called upon.

(These are my homebrew Chapters)

 

With these forces and possible even a few other chapters added on an ad-hoc bases, a Legion-Strength chapter could be destroyed, when the need arises.

 

“Pray the Emperor, the need for Degree 87E-1258-BT-8000, never arises.” - High Lords of Terra

 

 

[joschlumpf]

I think it´s possible, but Ultramarines and Iron Hands sounds somehow wrong.

 

For me the real question here is, if it is necessary after all. If the Templars ever going to warship the Chaosgods there are dozens of Chapters attacking them. They are one of the most famous Chapters and they proved their righteousness and faith over and over again, fighting in every big war. 

 

But maybe someone here knows more.

[Lephisto]

I think parts of it are plausible. I disagree that canon legions/chapters would have that order built into them because its unprecedented in any of the black library novels. However I do not think its implausible for other chapters even successors to have this built into them. If you could write up or create more chapters to go with this? Interested to see how this unfolds and what others may think.

[Dredmour]

It sounds solid and plausible, but as was stated above I'd remove it from existing chapters and use it as a basis to create homebrew chapters potentially. 

As for the actual order, pertaining to the Black Templars it just doesn't seem likely. A chapter that renowned and of that size would never entirely turn to chaos or renegade, there would undoubtably be loyalist fragments, and the Templars are just an unlikely suspect due to their devotion/indoctrination/persistence to the Imperium. I mean should a High Marshall of the Black Templars knowingly fall to Chaos, I'm certain Lysander himself would see to his execution if his own chapter didn't first.
 

Also I'd refrain from ever mentioning the missing legions in fan fiction. Its just that most see it as a crutch and we have no real (Citable and clearly stated, not hints) evidence that Russ or the Wolves were even involved in the killing of any Primarch/Legion before the heresy. It'd be a huge hole in your story if it turns out that really it was just a loss of IP and the two Legions are somehow reintroduced. Basically everyone's got their own theory of what happened and so refraining from mentioning it helps to keep people engaged in the matter you're discussing as opposed to going "Well I actually don't believe thats the theory they're going with".

 

I think perhaps a more interesting and suiting story would be of either a single chapter or group of chapters from the same founding/gene-seed that had certain orders in place should another of their founding/gene-seed fall or turn. Its a very DA kind of idea but I could certainly see it happening in universe. It shouldn't be a big no no in terms of writing.

I'd say just take the criticism received so far into consideration and you could forge a pretty cool narrative around it.

 

Best regards,
Dredmour

[Doctor Perils]

Here's a simple question that (though it may be worded a bit bluntly) should hopefully help you understand what I think about this idea:

Why do you want to create this plot hook/device?

I can see two possible answers to this in the way you've written your blurb:

1- you want to create an interesting plot line for your diy chapters (imperial lions and Shadow lynx)

2- you want to create a link between your chapters and the "big hitters" of the setting.

 

N. 1 is a perfectly acceptable reason to do something like this - it's normal that you should want to create reasons for your chapter to be unique/special, why else would you want to create a diy?

My problem with the current incarnation of this idea is N. 2: linking your chapter in such a way to the main pillars of the setting makes it feel as if this is a gimmick more than anything else - it cheapens the most famous chapters of the imperium at the same time as it makes it feel as if your chapters can't stand up on their own.

 

All in all, you've got the seed of a pretty interesting idea - I'd simply recommend removing explicit mention of the other main chapters here. Imagine how important (at least in their own minds) these chapters would become if they were given the mission of whittling down the numbers of large chapters by the high lords of terra, the inquisition, the Legio bolter and chainsword, or even the emperor himself through His tarot? Perhaps they are granted (or grant themselves) the right to use horrific weapons like phosphex or radio weapons in order to overwhelm a numerically superior foe? Imagine the friction this would cause with some of the more self-righteous chapters (or those so ignominious they wish to take over these weapons for their own purposes). Further, how do your chapters react when they discover how one (or two) of the most respected chapters in the imperium would normally fall within the remit of their mission? Imagine their self-doubt at taking on a foe that out numbers them 6 to 1, especially one so far above suspicion of heresy that other chapters would be likely to join the templars against the lions and lynx.

 

Hopefully you'll be able to do what you want with this, the idea in and of itself is pretty good and doesn't need much changing

[Donkey Kong]

Over the top. Purge it. All other factors aside, roping Chapters in because why not instead of why, the namedropping most of all, Space Marine Chapters do not answer to the High Lords of Terra. The Minotaurs identity is tied to how abnormal their relationship to the High Lords of Terra is.

[Rayanne979]

Wow what a lot of responses (i was only away  for a few hours)

Awesome!

 

It's both the #1 & #2 Lord Thorn mentioned.

I've wanted to create something to make the chapter special by giving them a "monumental" secret task and by that to connect them more to the Established chapters.

 

My Homebrew chapters roam the Eastern Fringe a lot and don't have much contact with other chapters.

But it wasn't my intention to cheapen the Black Templars in any way. It was my intention to make them even more important to the Imperium of Men. Upto the point where the High Lords of Terra might get worried to lose them and start to think about the "What if..?".

 

 

From what i've distilled from all the responses is:

It's not a bad idea and possible but,

Take all the established chapters out and rewrite it a bit so it feels more like "The Fallen".

(I believe that's the Dark Angels Chapter and successors, if i'm correct.)

 

With a few more Homebrew Chapters (Maybe even only in name), you'd create a more solid group of successors which tie in more in the Warhammer 40k universe, which in turn connect to the Established Chapters.

(I've never been good at politics, but if that works, i'm proud at myself :) )

 

@Dredmour: You are right about the Missing Legions. I share your opinion about it.

 

 

Thank you for all the responses !!

 

I've got a bit of rewriting to do :)

[Doctor Perils]

My Homebrew chapters roam the Eastern Fringe a lot and don't have much contact with other chapters.

 

That's great: if they're on their own, that means they've got more chance of developping an interesting personality on their own. They absolutely don't need any particular contact with other chapters, especially not major chapters such as you have here.

 

 

But it wasn't my intention to cheapen the Black Templars in any way. It was my intention to make them even more important to the Imperium of Men. Upto the point where the High Lords of Terra might get worried to lose them and start to think about the "What if..?".

It might not be your intention, but that's unfortunately how it reads: not only making up stuff for several extremely well established chapters, but also involving a fairly minor chapter (let's face it: all DIYs are minor chapters when compared to chapters presented by GW, BL and FW) - it just shows that the Black Templars could be taken down by a coalition of chapters, including small chapters.

 

The real point is that your DIY chapter(s) should stand up on their own, without needing major chapters to prop them up - a single major chapter can be mentionned (I still prefer it when they aren't), but the story of your chapter shouldn't rely on it to work, and unfortunately this suggested story relies on many of the greatest chapters in the setting, that's why it becomes over the top.

 

 

Take all the established chapters out and rewrite it a bit so it feels more like "The Fallen".

(I believe that's the Dark Angels Chapter and successors, if i'm correct.)

I don't agree with this last part: don't try to make something like the fallen - try to make something on its own. The Fallen are a major theme of the setting on their own, copying that would once again cheapen the setting itself and your own creation.

 

 

 

With a few more Homebrew Chapters (Maybe even only in name), you'd create a more solid group of successors which tie in more in the Warhammer 40k universe, which in turn connect to the Established Chapters.

Whereas creating several Homebrew chapters could be good, I'd actually advise you against making them all link up to this story-line: instead, you can make one DIY to become the main antagonists of this story line (a larger-then-normal chapter that are attacked by your current guys, that turn traitor, perhaps because they were attacked by the Imperial Lions and the Lynx rather then the other way round), and possibly make another ally to your chapter.

 

However, as this would probably become a defining feature of your DIY chapters, it might be best to not include too many chapters into this alliance: remember, each chapter has to stand up on its own ;)

 

Most importantly, do not try to connect your DIY to established chapters!!! Create the fluff you want around your chapter in a logical manner, and if  it seems logical then to mention a link with a single other established chapter (ie, your alliance is wary of the Black Templars because they want to attack them but know they'd then get destroyed, or the Salamanders don't like your chapter because they have started using Phosphex etc.) - the connection to an established chapter should not be the goal of this exercise: it would in fact be easier for you to avoid them like the plague :P

[Rayanne979]

Most importantly, do not try to connect your DIY to established chapters!!! Create the fluff you want around your chapter in a logical manner, and if it seems logical then to mention a link with a single other established chapter (ie, your alliance is wary of the Black Templars because they want to attack them but know they'd then get destroyed, or the Salamanders don't like your chapter because they have started using Phosphex etc.) - the connection to an established chapter should not be the goal of this exercise: it would in fact be easier for you to avoid them like the plague

I'll stop trying to tie in my chapter to the established Chapters.

You're right about being able to create their own personality when they are "more secluded" from the universe. I hadn't thought of it in that manner, but you're right.

Up untill the idea of this "Decree" i only have named:

- The Imperial Fists, Black Templars and Crimson Fists as possible Founding Chapter. (My Chapter doesn't know from which one they are a successor).

- The Sons of Medusa, for their assistance in surgury using very complicated and extensive cybernetics.

I've mentioned the "Fallen" not to try to copy them, but to indicate i'm going to think up something completely different than the "Decree" idea.

I should have been a bit clearer when i've mentioned the "Fallen". I'm sorry.

It can be hard to think up new, innovative storylines which are good, but with all of your help, i'm gettin there. Thank You !!

[Halandaar]

Most importantly, do not try to connect your DIY to established chapters!!! Create the fluff you want around your chapter in a logical manner, and if it seems logical then to mention a link with a single other established chapter (ie, your alliance is wary of the Black Templars because they want to attack them but know they'd then get destroyed, or the Salamanders don't like your chapter because they have started using Phosphex etc.) - the connection to an established chapter should not be the goal of this exercise: it would in fact be easier for you to avoid them like the plague

I don't think it's totally unreasonable for people to namedrop more than one established chapter across the entire spectrum of fluff for a DIY chapter. Sure it's unlikely there would be any kind of established relationships with more than one (and typically I suppose that would be the founding chapter), but it's certainly possible for the DIY to end up seconded to a campaign being undertaken by other Imperial forces if they happen to be nearby, and there's every chance that such a campaign would include elements of established chapters, Guard regiments, Forge Worlds etc.

So i'd say to the OP, don't be totally afraid to include established chapters in your background material, just don't get too heavy with the namedropping or try to create unrealistic "special" relationships.

As for the decree itself, i think this does actually suffer from too much (or possibly misguided) name-dropping! There are too many "big" chapters which make your two seem really out of place; if you had used a multitude of other established, but less-known chapters (for example Genesis Chapter, Iron Snakes, Black Guard), that allows you to tie your homebrew chapters into the setting at large without seeming like you're over-doing it.

A separate consideration is the raw numbers; I think if there was ever a plan to bring down sizeable force of Astartes like the Black Templars, the High Lords would want to go for overkill; throw so many other chapters at them that they succumb very quickly. You've presented a list which has (assuming each named chapter can dedicate it's full strength, which it probably can't) around 6500 loyalist Marines in it to face off against a threat of 8000+. More power needed!

[Claws and Effect]

I've fallen into the name dropping trap in the past. It usually doesn't work out well.

 

If you must use a canon chapter in your history, it works a lot better if the chapter you use in that way is one of the more obscure chapters.

 

For example, instead of a rivalry with the Raven Guard over differing combat doctrines, perhaps a rivalry with the Revilers or Knights of the Raven would work better. Same rivalry, but the canon chapter being used is much more obscure. That gives you more room to work, as the lesser known chapters don't have as much more that you'd have to work around.

[Dredmour]

I see you have gotten some good feedback and while I agree with most of it I would like to offer my perspective on one issue

When it comes to linking to established chapters it can be tricky business. Many people are critical of it but I believe there are ways to make it work. One such way (Which I myself have used) is to try to link to chapters that are established by GW (Excoriators) but aren't as popular or fleshed out (Black Templars) if you are going for a very direct link. In my own homebrew, the Impalers, I made them descendant of the Excoriators and spent a lot of time making clear distinctions for how that translated and differed in my own chapter. Its a bit of give and take. If you do it well and subtly people won't mind, and many times will actually enjoy the twist.

 

Example:
A way that does not work so well is saying something like "My chapter is called the Blue Dragons and are a Black Templars successor that use sonic weaponry" I'm not saying that is what you have done here. I'm just explaining how if you craft the idea in support of the ties but its able to stand on its own it makes the read much more interesting.

So just by changing a few things in that line you can create a more interesting and rooted tie such as "My chapter is called the Swords of Sigismund and are a Black Templar's successor that favor sword combat" 

This now gives you room to say that the chapter is named after the Dornsblade, a blade Dorn himself used and shattered after the HH which the BTs reforged and is now used by the High Marshall of the BTs. They favor swords because Sigismund, the founder of the BTs and the first Emperor's Champion, favored swords and used this reforged blade. As a right of passage the brothers hand craft their own blade to their personality. Boom a somewhat solid concept with a plausible tie to a larger chapter.

 

 

So now thinking in respect to your idea, instead of having the decree be in place FOR the BTs have it be in place BY the BTs. Since the origins are unknown you can say it is suspected most that they are a BTs successor chapter that formed from BT officers who put in place a plan in case any other chapter not as loyal or open as the BTs comes of legion strength. You can say something like this chapter was to be formed and equipped to act as a rapid attack force against said traitors until the mighty BTs or other loyalist forces that could handle a threat that size could arrive in mass. This way it allows them to have an interesting angle that they have contingencies in place in case a more questionable chapter starts amassing large numbers, but aren't going after an established chapter that most wouldn't see as a threat.

This also leaves the story more open ended seeing as you can make it so they respond to and investigate any chapter suspected of meeting legion strength, and therefore you can write in an example later on as a plot device in a story or leave it open as one of their secret "decrees". This helps to make your chapter stand more on its own while still having a clever link. They are now the focal point of your idea, but the link to the BTs is still strong and now reflects a more likely mindset. It is much more believable that a force descending from some of the most loyal soldiers in the galaxy would be weary of another chapter growing that strong, as opposed to a bunch of otherwise unrelated chapters answering to the Highlords that few of them regard as authority for a plan about a chapter that isn't likely to do any wrong.

Again, these are just examples off the top of my head and ultimately you should go with what you like but considering that you asked for feedback I hope you enjoy and borrow from some of these proposed ideas. Just a little revising here and there and you can make many kinds of situations fit into the 40k universe. I wish you luck in your writing and on your concepts!


Best regards,

Dredmour

[Daimyo-Phaeron Lenoch]

​Rayanne979: Having looked at your idea and the others' comments, I have a little to add myself.

 

Instead of namedropping someone big (like the UMs or the IFs) perhaps instead replace one or the other (or both) with massively Codex-adherent IF lineage chapters, like the Hammers of Dorn, for example (I'll take a look at my codices when I get home, as there's more in there) and other chapters that are described as being extremely codex-adherent. This is another way to make ties with canon chapters whilst not having an oversaturation of ubername-drop (i.e. famous chapters).

 

​However, If you keep going with this, a liaison from the Dawn Blades would be happy to keep an ear to the ground of this to tell his lord if they are needed. It's an interesting concept that you have here, I like it (though it will need work, but then so does any rough draft).

 

Halandaar: Agreed, but who's to assume all the Black Templars are going to be in the same place? Granted each crusade is still larger than a single chapter, but I doubt they will have AM and Navy support like the other chapters will once the regulars get moving. Oh, and inquisitorial warbands too. So while in a vacuum where every marine involved is gathered, the BTs will probably win, but the only vacuum likely to be involved will be the vacuum of space. Granted I may be reading your statement slightly off, but I think I got the gist of what you were saying.

 

[Halandaar]

Halandaar: Agreed, but who's to assume all the Black Templars are going to be in the same place? Granted each crusade is still larger than a single chapter, but I doubt they will have AM and Navy support like the other chapters will once the regulars get moving. Oh, and inquisitorial warbands too. So while in a vacuum where every marine involved is gathered, the BTs will probably win, but the only vacuum likely to be involved will be the vacuum of space. Granted I may be reading your statement slightly off, but I think I got the gist of what you were saying. 

 

I possibly over-simplified, but what i was driving at was that for each individual Templar crusade, you might want to throw 3 or even 4 full strength chapters at it plus Imperial Navy, Guard and AdMech forces just to be sure.

 

Well, I would anyway. I expect the BT's would do well when backed into a corner.

[Rayanne979]

Hi everybody!

 

I've took all of your advices to heart (Thank You, Thank You, Thank You) and came up with this very early WIP Draft.

 

It still needs a lot of work, but i have something waaay better on paper than i had before.

 

 

Founding Reason

• A few officers of the Black Templars decided to put a contingency plan in place should a Space Marine Chapter reach Legion Strength and not adhere to the Inquisition ruling of them splitting up into multiple chapters or go on a penitent crusade to thin their numbers.

• This newly founded chapter would engage the renegade chapter to buy time for other Chapters to arrive en mass and eliminate the threat.

• The High Lords of Terra agreed with this plan and founded a Chapter for this specific reason during the 20th Founding.

• Note: This contingency plan was later extended to the Successor Chapters of both the Imperial Lions and Shadow Lynx.

• Since the founding of a chapter couldn’t be approved on a contingency plan alone, additional missions were added.

• Seek & Destroy all enemies of the Imperium of Man.

• Seek & Retrieve archeotech for the Adeptus Mechanicus

[Conn Eremon]

I think that this is a lot more work to justify something than the justification deserves, frankly.

 

Approach what you want from different angles, you might find an easier alternative.

 

What if your Chapter was just a Chapter. What if your just-a-Chapter was involved in an effort to censure another Chapter, simply because of availability, proximity and willingness? What if your just-a-Chapter's success in that action meant they were more likely to be called upon for future actions against renegade Chapters?

[Rayanne979]

In other words, Make it "just another chapter" who happened to be at the right place at the right time

and scrap the "Black Templars contingency plan ?

new missions based on previous successes in that specific area.

That could work

Edit:

I'm starting to believe i have enough "stuff" in my diy codex and made it allready interesting enough, to declare it 100% complete.

that it doesn't need "more".

I'll meditate on that

[Conn Eremon]

The Badab War is the most in-depth example we have that details just these kind of events, and only a single Chapter involved had these kind of origin circumstances. None of the others did, because none of the others needed it to be complete and interesting.

[Rayanne979]

@ Conn Eremon:

 

Sorry it took so long to respond, but i took your advice and looked at it from another andgle.

 

You're right. A chapter doesn't need an uber-over-the-top founding reason.

 

The decree i've came up with was illogical. (yeah i sound like Spock [star Trek Heresy! lol], Aspergers Syndrome does that to a girl, lol)

 

Anyway, I've scrapped the entire decree idea and let the stories and legends take me where they go instead of forcing something "grandiose" in there.

 

Thank you, Con Eremon!

And everybody else, of course, for helping me!

[Nomus Sardauk]

Aside from Badab, decrees like yours have happened before, it's not actually uncommon. For example the Pentarchy of Blood (Flesh Eaters, Red Talons, Charnel Guard, Death Eagles & Carcharodons) were formed by the High Lords to exterminate 11 chapters declared excommunicate by Terra for their actions during the War of the False Primarch. Another group, the Manus Irae, (Silver Skulls, Charnel Guard, Fire Hawks & some other chapters, names unknown) were formed to enact the bloody cleansing of the heretical Malagantine Sector in qhat would be known as the Great Malagantine Purge, the involved chapters being told to "Spare none and set a bloody, fearful example to the realm of Mankind."

 

Anyway, if you're looking for some non-big name Chapters to possibly be executioners for this Decree I'd suggest these;

 

• Red Hunters: Literal Inquisitorial lapdogs, they even have the Inquisitorial "I" in their chapter emblem. The ][ used them as muscle when they tried to punish the SW for protecting loyal Guard & Civilian witnesses to Angron's daemonic invasion of Armageddon from being purged over the ]['s fear of potential taint. They wouldn't even question assaulting the Templars if the High Lords gave the order

 

• Marines Malevolent: Grade-A :cuss: holes with a capital :cuss:, the MM are the kind of guys who bombard civilian refugee camps with Whirlwinds because a small force of Orks are inside killing folks. We know this because they actually did during the 2nd War for Armageddon, earning their Captain Vinyar a righteous backhand of justice across the face from Chapter Master Tu'Shan of the Salamanders. The MM would be more than happy to help take down another Chapter if the High Lords told them to, especially if they got to take the Templars' wargear as loot.

 

• Minotaurs: Hoo-boy, where to even begin with these guys? The Minotaurs were involved with the Badab War and are notorious for being one of the most vicious and bloody-handed chapters out there. They have clashed with other loyalist chapters numerous times for various reasons and are outright barred from entering Ultramar space for savaging the :cuss: out of one of the Ultramarines' successors and taking their ships as wargear as spoils of war. They're also fanatically loyal to the High Lords and kind of act as their attack dogs whenever someone steps out of line.

 

• Carcharodons: The other Chapter involved in the Badab War that's notorious for being one of the most vicious and bloody-handed out there, the Carcharodons are enigmatic butchers from the darkest depths of space who appeared out of nowhere unannounced during the Badab War to kill traitors and everyone was to :cuss:-scared of the pale-skinned mystery marines with eyes like pools of black ink to say anything about it. They are excel at fighting other marines, have no problems about doing so and have a big fleet at their disposal, so the High Lords would probably try to recruit them.

[Claws and Effect]

Pentarchy of Blood and Manus Irae weren't formed for that reason. They already existed. They just happened to get the assignment.

 

Be a little weird if the High Lords went "Well, these guys turned traitor. Lets Found a new Chapter and send them after them in a hundred years or so".

 

Nah, they will send whoever is closest to the traitors.

[Nomus Sardauk]

Pentarchy of Blood and Manus Irae weren't formed for that reason. They already existed. They just happened to get the assignment.

 

I didn't say the chapters themselves were created for for that purpose, they already existed, they were merely brought together to form said groups by the High Lords' orders for their respective tasks.