Death Guard Morale

[Kais Klip]

"Endurance"... just not mental. Why is it that the Death Guard get a rule against pinning and fear, but nothing for close combat? I struggle to imagine the Death Guard, of all legions, allowing themselves to... dismay... at the situation and get swept up in an assault. I can't even imagine them wishing to break off from the endurance test a slashy unit brings. If anything, showing the weaker back armour of the MkIII will just let them get killed quicker.

 

We saw them get updated with the legion rules, fleshing out their rules, so it can't be an oversight. How is it that Bligh looks at them that I dont? They don't even get a Stubborn special rule for their "stubborn in defense and implacable in offence" fluff. Atleast the Fists get to resolutely put up a hail of bolter Fire. As it stands, the vanilla XIV fold as bad as the Raven Guard when a plan goes wrong.

 

Bonus Round: explain the above for Imperial Fists.

[Charlo]

I suppose, for game balance.

 

Sweeping is a big deal in the heresy and it is supposed to convey they total and absolute slaughter of the setting.

 

It's less about painting them as "the ones who never fall back" and more about "the ones that just got crushed in combat by the foe"

[Kais Klip]

Dont you think that would have been represented more subtly by the old Fearless rules, in which a unit takes more casualties in price of not retreating?

 

Edit: besides, rules keepin closer to fluff would have only impacted the IV, VII, XIV, XVII and XVIII, still leaving another 13 legions with which to demonstrate the setting with, while still paying homage to the fluff. It's hard to envision a bitter Iron Cage slogfest when half your units are routing from their supposed antithesis, rather than spending their lives mauling each other to the... bitter end perhaps?

 

Just seems overly... mortal to me, and these aren't even normal Astartes, they're all supposed to be mentally unhinged one way or another.

[Teun135]

You probably are right, the old Fearless rules would better represent that. However, at it's core, 30k is an expansion of the 40k ruleset. Therefore they can't outright change things like USRs (Stubborn, Fearless, etc) without fundamentally changing the base game's rules. At least, that's how I understand it.

 

In my opinion, the 14th Legion is represented fairly well. They are immune to the effects of fear, and they can't be pinned, but they do recognize when they are defeated. I've always seen the Stubborn and Fearless special rules to be more representative of those too tactically-inept to see when they are being overrun and who do nothing to react to it. Since Legiones Astartes lets them regroup automatically, it has always been a matter of re positioning after a sound whupping, rather than breaking completely as the rules imply. Unless caught by a sweeping advance, that is!

 

Just my 2 cents of rambling.

[Marshal Loss]

They get Stubborn when Mortarion is around.

 

Why? Probably balance. One of the best things about 30k is that Space Marines break. It would be pretty dull if one Legion virtually ignored all that repercussions or no.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

With regard to the Imperial Fists I think it's worth noting that they had their Stubborn rule changed to being immune to Pinning whilst in cover/fortifications.

 

I think as noted above it's to make Sweeping Advances more brutal.

 

With the change to an AoS Battleshock style mechanic in the forthcoming edition then it's all going to change anyway and may well returnto the stubborn attrition in place that you would like.

[NoLifeKing]

I agree wholly that its most likely just for game balance.  

But that aside, i have always seen the typical death guard endurance represented as more akin to simple disregard for issues such as tiredness and pain, instead of plain and simple fearlessness, because such traits are for the stone men of Dorn and the level headed Ultramarines. The Death Guard can endure through discomforts and suffering that even other legions would find intolerable. 

[Kasper_Hawser]

Death Guard rules are pretty sweet even without stubborn. I don't think Death Guard were meant to shine in close combat anyway, endurance in this sense means battlefield advancing, where they simply won't break while marching up the battle field, bearing in mind that Mortarion is first and foremost, an infantryman.

 

In the end, 30K is a cool game where the crunch where possible is matched to the fluff. May not be perfect, but sure is better than 40K. I particularly like the resistance to poison although few marines use that kind of weapon. Even pre-Mortarion Dusk Raiders were trained to resist chemical warfare so makes sense.

 

If there is one thing fluffy thing I think the Death Guard should have had but no longer have, is the ability to infiltrate like the Raven Guard. Dusk Raiders got their name for preferring to attack during the twilight between night and day. To me, this translates to Infiltrate and Fear, maybe even Shrouded. Strangely enough, this then became the Raven Guard MO after the founding of Corax, and Mortarion despite being a sneaky ninja himself, wasn't one for sneakiness for his sons.

 

In an age of marines knowing fear, Forgeworld has to be very careful on who can have Stubborn or Fearless units, so most legions have some aspect of it but not outright immunity. And if they do, they also have a weakness to offset it, like the Salamanders being unable to add their initiative to Sweep advance, or the Smurfs and Night Lords reducing leadership when their leaders are dead.

 

remind me to do loyalist death guard one day, after my wolves are done and tried.