Primarch Book 3 Magnus the Red

[HeritorA]

'- the setting of the story is a very interesting twist for Astartes, but let me put it this way without spoiling it; if you're looking for adventure and you're hobby is chasing police cars to find it, would you rather the police car end up at a crime scene, or taking a stranded cat down from a tree?'

- indeed.

 

This is the side effect of the era of the novel but there's very little new here.

- exactly

 

I'm mixed about Magnus. He's good in it but feels a bit too.... green. Ahriman is Ahriman. Always the stalwart, thinking man's war hero. It's hard not to like him.

- not so, he is not a thinking man here - just a man who experimented with and don't know his abilities. He does not have even a shred of his 'ambitions' and 'self-control' and 'unshakeable belief in himself and knowledge'

[Mellow]

  On 4/7/2017 at 10:03 AM, HeritorA said:

'- the setting of the story is a very interesting twist for Astartes, but let me put it this way without spoiling it; if you're looking for adventure and you're hobby is chasing police cars to find it, would you rather the police car end up at a crime scene, or taking a stranded cat down from a tree?'

- indeed.

Oh my god HeritorA. You've really pushed the boat out with the crazy this time. Lol.

[mc warhammer]

  On 4/7/2017 at 5:46 PM, Mellow said:

 

  On 4/7/2017 at 10:03 AM, HeritorA said:

'- the setting of the story is a very interesting twist for Astartes, but let me put it this way without spoiling it; if you're looking for adventure and you're hobby is chasing police cars to find it, would you rather the police car end up at a crime scene, or taking a stranded cat down from a tree?'

- indeed.

Oh my god HeritorA. You've really pushed the boat out with the crazy this time. Lol.

 

 

but...i don't think that's his quote. he's just agreeing.

[Loesh]

 

 

You know, it's interesting rereading a Thousand Sons/Prospero burns and I realized the legions are a dark mirror for me in one way.

 

I love the Thousand Sons themselves, not universally so, but before Magnus and the fall they were educated scholors who yes dipped too much into the warp but had people like Ahirman teach them control, if Ahirman had been Primarch instead of Magnus things would of turned out much different way. I despise Magnus himself who is arrogant and petty, feeding on his own glories and supposed perfection with no introspection until the whole thing goes awry, then rather then face his executioners and fight like a man he chooses to simply accept death...which wouldn't be so bad if tthat death didn't include all his sons.

 

By contrast I dislike the wolves themselves, they aren't complete Barbarians, a lot of that barbarism is faked to give them their image, but they are largely ignorant of the universe around them and more focused on their own chest beating and intimidation which...for whatever actual intelligence they may posses...still makes them largely brutes, even the ones I like I would never want to lead anything. Russ by contrast is everything that is not, he looks inward, he wanted to give Magnus a second chance in spite of everything, for all his superstitious hate of the warp he could see beyond himself. Unlike Mortarion Russ persecuted Magnus out of love, rather then hate.

 

I almost feel like the Legions Primarchs should of been switched, as such i'm unsure if I want to pick up this book on the grounds that whenever I see Magnus I want to punch him in the face, even if I like his kids.

 

Edit: odd, my text was in a white box for some reason.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Loesh

[DarKnight]

I enjoyed this book a lot more than I expected to, mostly for adding a bit of depth of character to one of my favorite Primarchs, Perturabo. To imagine him actually concerned with the lives of humans is different from how he's ever been portrayed but still makes sense with him being a newer addition to the family, and sort of being mentored by Magnus.

[1ncarnadine]

  On 4/7/2017 at 3:26 AM, Prot said:

I'm mixed about Magnus. He's good in it but feels a bit too.... green. Ahriman is Ahriman. Always the stalwart, thinking man's war hero. It's hard not to like him.

  On 4/9/2017 at 10:23 AM, Loesh said:

but before Magnus and the fall they were educated scholors who yes dipped too much into the warp but had people like Ahirman teach them control

 

Am I reading the same character as everyone else? I feel like people are missing a lot about Ahriman's character. Things that have always been there between the lines that tell the lie to his noble airs, and foreshadow the utter monster he becomes.

 

This is the guy that casually reads another Legion's First Captain's thoughts for a bit, forgetting how horrifically invasive that act can be. Maybe that's tough for some psykers (especially Athaneans), but this is a guy that's supposed to be in control, right? He also clearly doesn't consider Forrix his equal, evidenced by that bit where Forrix suggests the act of looking into the future itself changes it, and Ahriman just dismisses that and muses about how the Thousand Sons have already debated that idea. That was so incredibly arrogant and awful of him. He could discuss, elaborate, or engage, but he protects his Legion (but mostly himself) by dropping the topic instead. 

 

And he thinks about restraint and fearing the flesh change, but then

  Reveal hidden contents

he goes ahead and obliterates an entire squadron of aircraft miles away in the sky with his mind. Lots of control there, dude.

That's another thing, the Thousand Sons don't fear the flesh change as a threat to their Legion, but as a threat to themselves. Ohrmuzd dying isn't horrific because it's Ahriman's brother; it's horrific because it could happen to Ahriman, too. That's messed up.

 

Ahriman is a dick. He's a perfect son of Magnus.

[cheywood]

That's a brilliant point. The Sons are as arrogant and vain as the EC in many ways, but it manifests as an obsession with their own knowledge and mental abilities. The absolute certainty of their belief that their knowledge, and thus agency, transcended all others. At least that's the way I see it. Edited April 11, 2017 by cheywood

[b1soul]

Most arrogant legion contest

 

EC vs. TSons vs. SW

 

...sounds about right?

[HeritorA]

  On 4/11/2017 at 2:45 AM, b1soul said:

Most arrogant legion contest

 

EC vs. TSons vs. SW

 

...sounds about right?

Not even a contest - Space Wolves win by all parameters.

 

As for the Magnus  - novella failed in many ways. Old characters recycle it's the least of it's problems. The biggest ones are the butchered characters and 'the death of innocence'

[DarkChaplain]

How, exactly, is the "death of innocence" theme an issue?

[Prot]

So we know and agree Thousand Sons are arrogant. So are a lot of Legions, they just show it differently. I mean really a lot of the crap that goes on between legionnaires is just cocky bravado.

 

So what if Ahriman dismisses Forrix's original thoughts? Do you really think if they were talking about fortifications that Forrix would have taken anything Ahriman said seriously? No more than Ahriman took Forrix's thoughts on seeing the future. And this goes for nearly every Legion.

 

Let's not forget Ahriman did chastise himself and was very respectful to Forrix.

 

I find I am enjoying the novel more the deeper I get. I found the flashback scene between the Emperor and Magnus very interesting.

 

I think Magnus very nearly over reaching himself was a good moment in showing us he's not 'there' yet, and was still capable of being humbled, and perhaps reeled in a bit.

 

It's reflective of the times, I just wish it was a different setting. I appreciate the attempt at the unique situation though.

[Indefragable]

  On 4/11/2017 at 2:45 AM, b1soul said:

Most arrogant legion contest

 

EC vs. TSons vs. SW

 

...sounds about right?

 

Corollary:

 

Least arrogant legion?

 

 

XVIII

 

 

.....

 

 

II and XI? 

[mc warhammer]

that's new. II and XI were destroyed for being too humble. grrrriiiimdaaaaaark

[bluntblade]

No no no, it was a Webway breach on Madrigal for the II, and catastrophic genhancement failure for the XI. Come on, you know this.

 

A key thing with the Sons is that they often take their powers for granted and fail to consider the ungifted besides vague pity

[HeritorA]

  On 4/11/2017 at 8:37 PM, DarkChaplain said:

How, exactly, is the "death of innocence" theme an issue?

I meant it from the other point of view. From the worlds of Joe Abercrombie. I read a lot DC. At least 5 books per week an not only Warhammer. That's why then it goes into naive and boring narrative zone I have a lot of other universes to compare it with.

 

  On 4/12/2017 at 6:42 AM, mc warhammer said:

that's new. II and XI were destroyed for being too humble. grrrriiiimdaaaaaark

Lols. Brilliant mate

[drooling blood]

It was ok as far as things go.

My main problem was, change a scene or two. It could have been called Primarchs: Perturabo.

[HeritorA]

  On 4/13/2017 at 4:30 PM, drooling blood said:

It was ok as far as things go.

My main problem was, change a scene or two. It could have been called Primarchs: Perturabo.

Nah - it would have broken Perturabo release plans  

[drooling blood]

  On 4/13/2017 at 5:48 PM, HeritorA said:

 

  On 4/13/2017 at 4:30 PM, drooling blood said:

It was ok as far as things go.

My main problem was, change a scene or two. It could have been called Primarchs: Perturabo.

Nah - it would have broken Perturabo release plans

 

Or it meant Magnus is still to come

Guilliman got his own book. Russ was mostly from his and his dogs perspective. Where as this one was to much IW.

 

Could have been so much more. Maybe sifting over some forgotten Eldar ruins, then the Eldar turn up and start chatting, not making war. Him learning something, but also picks up some of the Eldars a bit of their arrogance for lesser beings.

If they were going to involve others so much. He could have been hanging around with Sangy and the Khan deciding on librarian things.

Oh well maybe Khan or Sanguinius will shed light on such matters.

[HeritorA]

Indeed. Anyway Perturabo is being released today - it's time to discuss Haley depiction and inconsistencies comparing to McNeil :)

[Carach]

the big P and Magnus are probably the two primarchs im most interested in reading about. What are the timescales before these books go like.. mainstream..

 

because im not paying ridiculous sums for these limited edition things.

 

Say what you want about Angel Exterminatus, it made me interested in a primarch i had always really forgotten about.

[Taliesin]

Magnus is already out now in a very affordable hardcover or e-book version.

 

For Perturabo that will be the case in July.

[Prot]

Yea even I waited for the discount Magnus book. Some of these are difficult to afford if you're buying most of these like most of us do.

 

I happen to like Perturabo a lot and while I never like how McNeil wrote Honsou, I've enjoyed his Perturabo in this book. That's just personal but I also like his Magnus a lot better than other renditions as well.

[Roomsky]

Magnus the Red: Master of Prospero

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Well, and this is just my opinion, this series has finally reached the level I was hoping for. Too bad about Russ and Guilliman. Maybe they'll steal some spotlight in some other Primarchs books.

 

The Good:

There's something wonderfully straightforward about a McNeill book. I know it won't be especially profound, and it will be a bit overwrought, and oddly small-scale logic will be applied to things that should be logistical nightmares. But man, the guy can write a gripping novel.

 

Mcneill probably has one of my favorite balances of showing vs telling. I know "show don't tell" is usually heralded as a golden rule, but Mcneill seemingly effortlessly finds the golden ratio (for me personally) in all his works. For comparison, I just finished A Clash of Kings, and while it has many strengths of its own, GRRM's absolute refusal to simply exposit character traits leads to things like Dany spending an entire chapter hanging out in a nice but abandoned city just so we can learn that she won't sacrifice her goals for comfort. Something which could have convincingly been established in no more than half a page.

 

Not so for Mcneill. Frankly, I'd forgotten how wonderfully pulpy his writing is, and so long as he isn't committing mind-boggling stupidity to the page (Vengeful Spirit), I'm more than eager to read his next work. And considering how much I enjoyed this, Crimson King might be a winner.

 

As for the plot, Mcneill taps into what I've wanted to see from the start: a novel about a unique situation that serves to compliment the titular primarch's character. I thought Guilliman largely failed both, with a boring plot and a Guilliman that was frustratingly close to interesting but got suffocated under far too much green (#420MagnumMacraggeCivitas). Russ had an interesting plot, but the action was banal and his personality sort of went against the whole Emperor's Executioners thing (maybe a positive for some, I for one like his character development over the series, which The Great Wolf seemed to pretend never happened). Master of Prospero however gives us a novel situation: primarchs working together to save a world from itself, and with a focus on saving lives rather than ending them, rather than shooting things AND gives us an in-person view of Magnus and Perty's friendship AND shows us an interesting legion portrait: one that WANTS to be wise and humble but seems to forget once doing so becomes too inconvenient for them.

 

Ahriman just ignores his need to kill Forrix, the entire legion loses members because they go digging around somewhere they shouldn't, but continue to do so for basically their entire history, and Magnus is literally confronted by a ghost of his past telling him all his vows to change are full of . Aesop Amnesia is an integral part of the fifteenth's fatal flaw and its cool to see it so clearly expressed here.

 

Also, more Mcneill Perturabo. Much as I like French's frothing psychopath, Mcneill is best at giving the big guy an actual personality. This applies to his legionaries in general, actually, and while they occasionally suffer from what is clearly a gene-seed defect resulting in hilariously backwards logic, they are much more personable than those presented by most other authors. Normally I'm against this, but its done just sparingly enough that it never becomes annoying. Plus, you know, primarchs are supposed to be charismatic, not constantly furious/brooding.

 

Also, that ending.

 

http://static1.fjcdn.com/comments/Dat+last+one+doe+_506a2a90d23b3b2c95da948c30ac2e2d.jpg

Quote attributed to the dramaturge Nathaniel Combustion

 

The Bad

 

Graham Mcneill does not know what subtlety is. Now, I wasn't all that bothered by it, this is a setting with such gems as: The Council of Nikaea, Commorragh, and a guy named Angron. But the cult of Shaitan on Morningstar isn't even a relic of a campier age, this is new. Looking forward to Graham's next book with planetary governor Yahweh of planet Haevan.

 

Also concerning is his repeated use of Graham-verse characters, as many others have noted. Now, I haven't read Storm of Iron or the Ventris series, but the lack of new important characters is rather distracting. Especially egregious in the battle with the possessed Thousand Sons, where the only named marine to die is the one we've never heard of before. Big twist there, Graham.

 

Frankly, what I found more distracting, and my only real prose issue with Graham is that he keeps using the phrase "like an [x] of [5000 BC - 2000 AD earth)" as a parrallel to what's happening. He does it constantly, and I have a hard time believing so much of "common" western civilization knowledge remains in the year 30,000, especially after old night.

 

Overall though, this is what I want to see from this series, and really, my only complaints are standard Mcneill fare. It has renewed some of my faith in him however, and I hope Haley continues the upward trend with Hammer of Olympia.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Roomsky

[b1soul]

Other than TSons, what other Graham works have you enjoyed?

[bluntblade]

I haven't encountered the Grahamverse issue so much as that he only ever has characters making friends with the most senior/canon-famous members of another Legion, rather than having, say, one Thousand Son be mates with Verulam Moy or Marius Vairosean, instead of the entire Mournival or Eidolon, respectively. Apart from anything else, it gives the impression of an odd, exclusive club across the top tier of the entire Legion Astartes.