Deathwatch blues

[Scurvydog]

About a month ago I started out playing with my new Deathwatch force, I have gotten a few games in so far and wanted to share the results of the first outings for maybe some advice and feedback, before I settle into an army list for a tournament (among competitive friends), where we lock a list for 3 months at a time.

 

I have experimented with a few but very similar lists, the latest looking like this at 1500 points (note we agreed/houseruled in my group that kill teams can use DT's and the FAQ was silly):

 

 

Psykana Division

 

Astropath [25pts]: Laspistol, Mastery Level 1

 

Black Spear Strike Force

 

Watch Company [1155pts]

 

Watch Captain: Auspex, Melta Bombs, The Beacon Angelis, Artificer Armour, Bolt Pistol, Xenophase Blade

 

Aquila Kill Team:

 

Librarian: Mastery Level 2, Boltgun, Force Sword

Rhino: Dozer Blade, Storm Bolter

Veteran Squad: 

2x Veteran: Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun, 2 Veteran with Heavy Weapon: Chainsword, Deathwatch Frag Cannon, Watch Sergeant: Deathwatch Shotgun, Storm Shield

 

Aquila Kill Team

Drop Pod: Storm Bolter

Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw, Melta Bombs, Storm Shield

Veteran Squad:

Veteran: Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun, 3xVeteran with Heavy Weapon: Chainsword, Deathwatch Frag Cannon, Watch Sergeant: Deathwatch Shotgun, Storm Shield

 

Furor Kill Team:

Biker: Chainsword

Terminator: Cyclone Missle Launcher, Power Fist, Storm Bolter

Veteran Squad: 2xVeteran: Boltgun & Chainsword, 2xVeteran: infernus Heavy Bolter, Watch Sergeant: Boltgun, Storm Shield

 

Kill Team

Veteran Squad: 5x Veteran: Chainsword, Stalker Pattern Boltgun

 

 

Auxiliary

 

Corvus Blackstar [205pts]: Auspex Array, Twin Linked Assault Cannon, Twin-linked Blackstar Rocket Launcher

 

Command 

 

Dreadnought [115pts]: Twin-linked Lascannon

·· Power Fist: Storm Bolter

 

Total: [1500pts]

 

 

My first game against a Tau player was an absolute mess. He seizes first turn and managed to use both broadsides and a stormsurge with plenty of markerlights to pop my rhino, wreck my dread, with BS 5 and ignore cover and all that, also kills a few from the furor team which I deployed on board to support my turn 1 drop pod.

 

My turn the drop pod team with the captain and astropath completely whiffed their landfall next to a lot of pathfinders and a stormsurge and only took 1 wound of the stormsurge, they got, even getting prescience of I only hit with 2 out of 6 impact frag cannon shots... My other teams hardly did anything, whiffed a lot of fire, but got his coldstar commander shot down, but he saved his invul of course.

 

The rest of the game was just a massacre, the commander and his drop unit got complete wiped out, so no beacon for my turn 2, so my footsloggers got stranded and flyer failed to come in. Next turn I was just about tabled with a few vets left and the flyer came in, just to kill 1 pathfinder and then instantly get shot down for a table first shot in his turn 4.

 

 

My next game went a little better, but it was against a Khorne butcher horde, not much to say, they ran towards people with frag launchers and died, although not impressively so. Noteable mention here is my list was a little different with a squad and captain in the corvus, they came in turn 4 and instantly got shot down by Khârn the betrayers plasma pistol while zooming, 6 to hit, 6 to pen, 6 for dmg result, flyer crashed and captain died in it...

 

Next I faced a Necron force with 2 big far formations of wraiths with spiders for reanimation and support from warrior transports and jetbikes. Even with doing 24 str 6 hits I only killed 1 wraith with my droppod, the rest of my entire army only managed to take a hull point from a transport and wound another wraith, before I got swarmed over, with wraiths everywhere, I just conceded after my turn 2, where my dread and furor kill team valiantly tried a counter charge and got wiped to a man before their I4 attacks (I only had 3 stalker guys left and even with reroll T2 my flyer refused again to show up).  5T 3+ invul and 4+ reanimation is fun times, fast math is nearly 100 standard bolter shots to kill a single wraith, think about that. 

 

My most recent game was against salamander space marines, with a very cool army consisting of a stormlance company, with a lot of guys, I think it was 6 squads tota, mostly equipped with flamers (+1 str and reroll wounds for salamanders) and a few with grav all in razorbacks with TL AC's. The infantry can disembark then shoot and run back into the transport, auch. He also had a stormbringer formation and raptor wing, with guaranteed arrival of cheap reliable flyers, in stark contrast to my corvus ;) 

 

That game was also a mess (my theme it seems). My drop pad was doomed to fail, even though I tried to place it with as few assault cannons in range, I only ended up popping a rhino with them on my first turn (he went first), my Dread whiffed, my librarian killed himself with a perils result of 1 and failed leadership, sucking him and his team into the warp, although he did manage to crush a rhino and 4 guys inside with the succesful and damning use of machine flense from technomancy. The rest of the shooting whiffed as well, only doing 1 glance on 2 landspeeders, even my snipers were dead turn 1 from the scouts and their infiltrating landspeeder (they got flamed, then blinded, last 2 tried to assault 5 scouts and died to overwatch). His next turn my drop pod team got smoked, he had all these grand plans but the first guy with a flamer cooked 3 guys and wounded my captain and then it was pretty fast from there. Even with rerolls my flyer again refused to give me that 3+ roll, and with about nothing left starting my turn 3 I conceded there.

 

My takeaways from all that:

 

I can't figure out how to use the captain, he is insanely expensive, cant shoot, dies to any half decent CC opponent too.

 

1 drop pod team is clearly not enough, they shoot and then die, regardless of cover, and I never get to use the beacon trick.

 

A furor team on foot with the terminator was fun in theory, split fire from the biker with the cyclone is cool, but expensive gimmick and infernus bolters just struggle against many types of lists to earn their points.

 

A team of stalkers is semi ok in battles with objectives in deployment zones, but after switching to nova missions, we didnt have that anymore and they only did the odd wound here and there before dying, never earning half their points home. 

 

The Corvus Blackstar is a serious case of buyers regret, expensive and cool model, painted it up, but it is just worthless for the points, reserve rolls never work out for me, either it never comes in before everyone are dead, or it shows up to whiff and fall down (people dont even bother to spread out for its pathetic str 4 "bombs"). Now I need to figure out selling it, or just using it as a showpiece on the shelf.

 

For my next list I am thinking of going cad. Dropping my lib, captain, flyer and snipers, replacing them with Celestine joining some bikers. Drop pod has 10 vets  doing combat squads becoming 2 units with 2 shields, 1 shotgun, 2 frags. Lastly 2 vet squads in rhinos with 2 frags each and still a dread with AC and flamer, and 2 terminators with AC's as fire support, potentially deepstriking.

 

 

These were just some of my experiences and thoughts as a new Deathwatch player I wanted to share. What do you guys think about my take aways from the games? Anything you experienced just works and does NOT work for you with the deathwatch?

 

 

 

[SnakeChisler]

Your never going to beat the likes of a stormsurge with a normal army its an utter msimatch, the thing is gross by any standards, it takes 24 ap3 wounds to to bring one down (4++ & 5+ FNP) you really have to fetch stuff & psychic powers that are utterly crazy to compete. To give you some idea that is 2 full grav centurion squads with devastator doctrines on for a re-roll and the chances of them getting within 24 aren't great.

 

40k today is about spam if you can spam units and get free formation buffs (that in some circumstances make you nigh on unbeatable) your up there, if you decide to add expensive additional units your done for.

 

The worst thing is kitting your guys out with expensive toys (other than frag cannons) which you have no chance to use before you die.

 

Celestine adds some survivability to VV or bike squads but your really looking to eek every ounce of value from every veteran or choice you make, even with the Big C there is no room for fat of any sort each upgrade needs careful consideration.

[Scurvydog]

My local meta changed quite a lot, from more fluffy lists back in the day, but we had a 1 year campaign going now, with an eldar player beating a lot of us left and right, which made people people change from more fluffy lists, to much more competitive lists.

 

If I want to only win for winnings sake, I guess I should use my admech army and go war con. I just really enjoy the more dynamic feel of the deathwatch, sort of sad after my last games actually, I wanted a flexible army, which seemed to fit with all the special weapons, ammo and new combinations of unit types, but I am just overwhelmed by far stronger and even cheaper enemy units.

 

Rhinos with 5 vets in, 2 with frag to use hatches seems to work decently. a drop pod cant go alone, even if I pop a transport, I need to clear out those inside after with another squad. 

 

Then there is allies, but I really don't enjoy that, I had the same problem with my grey knights, and you end up having no real army or theme left, and playing "optimal" marines, I might as well just play ultramarines with a deathwatch paintjob I guess.

 

I need to come up with something though, my poor guys in black are just way over their head, with my oppenents fielding renegade knights, stormsurges and even the Yncarne, that even the frag cannons seem feeble at such a task.

[Debauchery101]

Ive found in larger games when im going to fight tau i just use a skyhammer thats fully beefed up. I put all of them right in their face. Only once have i lost a squad completely from interception. Tie the big :cuss up in melee, which dies easily...and make a couple units go to Ground...plus if taking an Astropath and using black spear..likely going to get most or all your reserve units turn 2. His next turn if he didnt want to get really scewed put most of his good weapons on standby.

 

Or use a blackstar wing and a couple land raiders.

 

With tau they front load you turn 1-2. If you sacrifice and maneuver properly then by t3 youre into hth and once you start chipping at those markers and locking up those rips/ghosts they crumble

[Scurvydog]

Yes the skyhammer with the assaults and devs is awesome, but then again I end up only having deathwatch there to justify my purchase of them. If i end up needing Celestine as a hq and I need to go buy an entire skyhammer, suddenly half my force is no longer deathwatch at all, and those that are, tags along out of pity more than usefulness.

 

Maybe I just don't get them, or they just don't fit My local meta. I have never been beaten so easily in all my years playing, and it just slightly made med regret starting up this army, if my only option is to go out and get standard marine formations anyway.

[Vash]

Sadly our codex was sub par when it came out and was even more so after the FAQ.

After the FAQ going with a CAD was one of the only options for me to make my play style viable.

 

St. Celestine became a "must" tagging along with bikers.

Switching from alpha strike with drop pods for rhinos for some mobility and line of sight blocking schenanigans.

 

Deathwatch with its current codex cannot compete on a competitive level alone at the moment. They are great allies though. But you need to take them as allies or CAD as their formations doesn't allow them to take dedicated transports.

 

But all in all. I am happy with my deathwatch. I have won more than I have lost. Given, most of my games with them has been prior to the FAQ.

 

In the future I'll be using them as allies or in a combination with other imperial armies if I want to stay competitive. For "fluffy/narrative" games I can field them as pure Deathwatch.

[Azure Hammer]

In my experience the corvus is never worth it. It's beautiful but 100% overcosted and like Snake says, we have no room for fat. I have the same opinion of Infernus Bolters. Very cool idea, but the frag cannon is only one melta bomb more and way more useful.

 

Sadly, our HQs are mostly just relic holders. If you are going to take Celestine and the Girls grab a plain jane librarian for the warlord trait. The only units I put CC weapons on are the Vanguard or Bikers. Everyone else just pays too much.

 

I run a dread similar to yours, sadly they are really hit or miss. I stopped taking stalkers, I fell like the Heavy tag is too much of a tax for only a 6 in range increase.

 

I really enjoy running rhinos around the map with frag cannons in them. I usually take at least one. I just played a game tonight where I took three. Plus, if you're rolling Technomancy some of those powers really help keep your rhino alive.

 

Good luck on your campaign! I look forward to your bat reps and pictures of your army!

[SnakeChisler]

Once gargantuan creatures get to a certain stage the games get completely distorted, putting a 4++ on a Surge or 5++ on a wraith knight with fortune just spoils games tactically your really needing 2000+ points per side

 

A single Imperial knight is a pain to deal with but because of AP & armour at least you can kill it

 

This sort of stuff is Apocalypse or apocalypse lite and people need to get thier heads around discussing the parameters of each game otherwise your into an arms race, how many formations? how many points allowed for super heavies? Ranged D templates? Invisibility yes or no.

 

I can break any Tau force with invisibility, bikers + a conclave but is that what the game has descended into discuss with your group before there isn't a group to discuss with because people get cheesed off.

[Mobius0288]

Sad to hear about the infernus as I had high hopes for it. From the discussions we've had on here, my thought process drifted to about 3 drop pods of stuff and rhinos for everything else. I've still no experience with Celestine and the survivability sounds amazing, but that's 200 points I would just love to have another Vet squad and rhino with. She'd have to go in my army against the MCs and knights.

 

Would a landraider prove more capable then a Blackstar? Or maybe for the points just add a couple razorbacks?

 

OR go the complete opposite direction and deck out 3-4 veteran/aquila teams with all shields and some heavy weapons? Not really suitable for objective play, especially against long range. Meh, IDK guys. But I still love my deathwatch guys.

[Scurvydog]

Landraiders are overcosted deathtraps. I have hated them ever since a single ork nob blew up my black templar raider in 1 swing and randomized hits from the explosion killed my emperors champion inside. Got flashbacks to that from losing my corvus and captain from 1 plasma pistol shot... Rhinos are best I think, especially with 2 fire hatches, so you can use vets with frag cannons while advancing.

 

The thing I wanted out of the infernus was slightly longer range fire support, but str 5 AP 4 is not really that dangerous, the frag cannon does everything far better than the range. Nothing in the DW book is worth the points for long range support, even a TL las dread serves more as a distraction than range support. Remember you already got special ammo, which is why the infernus suffers so much. Let's take a carnifex (T6, 3+) for example. 3 shots from an infernus will on average deal 0,2 wounds. 2 rapidfire shots with hellfire rounds from a bolter will on average deal 0,36 wounds, closer range is needed, but far more reliable. against meqs the infernus with 3 shots will do 0,4 wounds, 2 bolter shots with vengeance rounds deals 0,66 wounds. The only place the infernus got the upper hand is against weak hordes, but for that price you could get another veteran and bolter, and be far more efficient.

 

The idea of the deathwatch and their kill teams and strike force is just awesome, but is not effective for any kind of semi competitive play. That interesting looking unit with a bike, a terminator, some hybrid heavy bolters all look awesome, but that idea just seems more suited to an Xcom style game. That expensive units disappears from 1 stormsurge shot as easy as grots. No I no longer think fielding any DW on foot, aside from maybe the odd solo terminator is the way to go. We simply can't afford the risk of having veterans who never get to fire their expensive special ammo.

 

Having played GK's for a few years, the DW is similar in many ways, elite, most things are overcosted and formations are terrible compared to regular marines. The DW got 1 major edge over GK's though (except nemesis knights), in their massed medium range shooting. GK's cant assault when their jump or deepstrike and put their expensive nemesis weapons to use, but the DW can use all their toys. After my failures, I now believe maximizing this is the key, while sounding obvious, it's not all that straight forward, since the book gives several methods, some arguably traps, to do this.

 

My next attempt will involve getting a hold on celestine to run with a solid unit of bikers, she is incredibly tanky with majority T5 and will take a LOT of firepower to keep from making a big impact. She is more than a meatshield though, her 1 use orbital bombardment should not be underestimated in the alpha strike, and the units speed, will put them in a good support position for drop pod combat squads. nearly the rest will come in rhinos.

[Moostick]

I think you did a good job already identifying what the issues with the list were, and it's something I think everyone agrees on: the Captain and the Corvus.

 

Taking those two alone took up over a quarter of your total points. At that amount, they should have some staying power or some big guns, but they just...don't.

[Debauchery101]

Man i love the corvus. 200 points for an assault transport with reroll jink and tl weapons plus bombs...yeah mines be destroyed but the enemy chose that instead of the killteam..then got wasted.

 

DW is a finesse army and yes to mitigate the dice game you have to spend points but it is worth it.

 

I will always make dw my main..but a skyhammer maxxed or minimized will greatly help. Having just devs sit back with hb's and 3d6 gtg checking units will negate a lot of tau BS.