Horus Heresy Period Armor Accuracy

[OakRiver]

As I'm working on my 30K Blood Angels force I'm finding that the best source of parts for customizing my force is 40K plastic kits. One of the challenges that I am faced with is that I want to have my Astartes with reasonably accurate period armor. Is there an accurate time line for when various marks of power armor come into service?

[Slave to Darkness]

Basically Mk 2-4 for early Heresy, Mk5 was a 'lets use whatever crap we have laying around because we dont have replacement parts' after it all kicked off, Mk6 was being developed during the Heresy and going by old fluff even Mk7 is Heresy era Armour.

[m0nolith]

Sure.

MkII Crusade armor came into service a little before the Great Crusade started

MkIII came into service sometime during the Crusade

MkIV came into service sometime during the late Great Crusade. This is the mainstray for the BA legion, although they made plenty use of mk II-V as well during the Heresy.

MkV came into use sometime during the late Crusade according to the lastest fluff and didnt originally come into use during the Heresy even though its called "Heresy" armor. Essentially any mix of armor types is considered MkV, but the one im talking about here is the classic covered in studs type).

MkVI although parts were tested by the Alpha Legion, the main users of this mk were the Raven Guard, but a BA player may say that some parts are being tested by the BA legion in the same light as the AL did.

MkVII (the classic 40k aquilla armor) was available in very low quantity at the very end of the Heresy during the Siege of Terra itself. The World Eaters made some use from a similar looking helmet manufactured on the Sarum forge world, although its not the same thing.

 

In reality, I doubt most people would care if you used 40k parts to make a 30k army, but if you want to make a fluffy and accurate 30k army, unfortunately you would have to buy 30k stuff.

A lot of hardware from 40k is available in 30k but in lower numbers. Mars pattern rhinos are ok, as well as bolters and regular 40k Land Raiders, but Terminators wouldnt have the Crux Terminatus.

[Ryltar Thamior]

The particular dates for various armour Mk.s coming into service have always been (deliberately) a bit fuzzy - particularly because the vagaries of galactic supply lines meant that the pace of rollout for upgrades and resupply to various Crusade forces and legions was anything but uniform. 

Since you're after info about making use of the (presumably modern, 40k era) plastic kits to construct your IXth Legion with, we'll start there an work backwards. 

Mk.VII armour IS technically available during the Heresy - although outside of a few prototypes, it's pretty much only to be found on Terra and Luna at the very end of the Heresy. The reasoning for this is that as Mars comes under threat, the forges and artificers/armourers there are packed up and shipped to Terra so that they can start rolling out the next generation of armour to keep the Loyalist legions engaged there in the fight. And even there, not in huge numbers.

This is potentially rather good news for you, as the Blood Angels were present at Terra, so if you wanted to do a Siege of Terra force, you could potentially incorporate a reasonable number of Mk.VII suits and still have it 'fluffy' [although I'd caution against i) having tooooo many of them, as they're supposed to be the result of somewhat desperate efforts to keep a supply of materials flowing to the front, rather than proper mass-production of the scale of the former Crusade output; and ii) against going with the over-ornate, Renaissance/blingy elements we see with a lot of the Blood Angels plastics. Instead, try and stick with a more spartan and unadorned plate to capture that 'just off the production line' feel). 

Mk. VI armour is also available during the Heresy - as well as, in exceedingly limited numbers, during hte later Great Crusade. [what happens there is original Mk.VI [at that point, I think referred to as Mk.V?] is sent in limited numbers to the Iron Warriors and Salamanders for testing and combat evaluation during the Crusade , who aren't keen on it bceause they prefer the heavier assault approach of Mk.III, and teh whole thing nearly gets scrapped - except Corax manages to make solid use of it for the XIXth's way of war - hence, the proper Mk.VI, with some additional upgrades, is put into mainstream production bearing the title of 'Corvus' armour]

It's more common during the HEresy itself, due to being accepted for main-line service. Although for the most part, it's used by Raven Guard and Alpha Legion forces. There would be justification for having some turn up with your Blood Angels - either production-patterns or prototypes that have been appropriated en route through the conflict; or resupply that's turned up through more legitimate channels at some point. In any case, it'd probably be most logical for you to equip recon marines or seeker squad members with Mk.VI due to the improved stealth and sensory capabilities of the armour. [it may also be worth noting that 'proper' Mk.VI armour for the Heresy era will most likely be lacking an Aquila on the chest, and will instead have a simple plate with some cables] [the Tactical Squad box contains either two or three sets of Mk.VI, unless I'm mistaken - and Mk.VI bits in general aren't too hard to come by in a number of other kits]

Mk.V armour is, as you'd expect given the fact it's called 'Heresy Armour", available during the Heresy from pretty much as soon as the Legions started to encounter supply shortages with their higher tech Mk.s II, III and IV suits. It's a 'composite' plate, often 'augmented' by patch-jobs held together with monomolecular bonding studs and the like. If you want your Blood Angels to be more rag-tag and 'desperate' seeming [rather than the traditional angelic perfection Renaissance supermen aspect], then this'll be a good place to start. There are some components from the modern GW plastics which have features in common with Mk.V, although for the most part, you're probably going to be converting it yourself. Handily, though, the obvious visual coterminities with Mk.VII [particularly iin terms of the helmet] mean taht this won't be especially difficult - you'll largely be adding nubs of greenstuff in regular patterns to the legs and head. [there's also a set of Mk.V legs in the Sternguard Veterans kit iirc]

Mk. IV armour was rolled out during the late Crusade - although never managed to fully replace the Mk.II and III which had preceded it by the time of the Heresy's outbreak. As you're no doubt aware, there's now a proper Mk.IV tactical squad box available [albeit rather ... ambitiously priced], although there's also, from memory, a set of Mk.IV legs in hte modern Tactical Squad box set [i'm nto sure if there's a helmet there to match it though] [there's also a complete set of Mk.IV in the Sternguard Veterans kit] [there also appears to be some Mk.IV bits in the Vanguard Veterans kit] [i'm also attempting to rmemeber whether the 'knightly' looking helm from teh Command Squad kit is suppsoed ot be a variant pattern of Mk.IV]

Mk. III armour turns up in the early-mid Crusade, and was designed to augment, rather than straight-up replace Mk.II , as it's optimized for a somewaht different combat role [heavy assault, boarding actions, that sort of thing - less mobility, more protection, literally heavier]. There's a rather spiffy Mk.III kit recently released which I'm sure you've seen; although there are some Mk.III parts to be found in some 40k box sets [at least two sets of shoulderpads in the Sternguard kit, for instance; and one of th the Masters of the Chapter; also possibly Chronus' helm?], it's pretty slim pickings. If these turn up in your force at all, they'll probably be piecemeal incorporations from other sources than official resupply, scavanged and 'patched in' captured components or recycled bits from destroyed Mk.III. 

Mk. II is around from pretty much the start of the Crusade, being developed iirc before the Emperor takes Reunification from Terra to Luna. I'd be rather surprised if there was anything in the modern plastic or finecast kits to represent these components. 

Now there's also more than just power armour, of course - Indomitus pattern terminator armour IS attested during the Heresy, albeit in significantly smaller proportion relative to all the Cataphractii and Tartaroi suits wanderoung around. I think the Huscarla of Rogal Dorn are equipped with the pattern? Just make sure to replace the storm-bolters with combi-bolters :P [although funnily enough, stormbolters turn up in The Wolf of Ash and Fire - albeit possibly as an author-slip-up/misnomer for combibolters]. The Mars Pattern rhino-family vehicles are also in service at this point in time; and it also seems plausible for the Castraferrum pattern dreadnoughts we're familiar with in the 41st millenium to have been in service back in 30k [based around the number of Chaos dreadnoughts which appear to be overtly similar to the chassis, and also that Salamanders special character dreadnought who's from basically the same time-scale]

Your actual problem, though, is going to be in weaponry. While it's true that you'll be able to get away with SOME Mk.VII armour [provided it's a Siege of Terra army], for example, it'll quite possibly be less well received if you simply use the ordinary 40k bolters, special weapons etc.. I've done some cursory checking, and it's difficult to find approximate dates for when the venerable Godwyn pattern was first introduced at scale. But if you can spare the cash, it might be worth picking up a bunch of phobos bolters [either FW, or bitz-reseller from the plastic Mk.IIIs box set] or something and other more archaic looking special weapons in order to make your force more identifiably 30k. 

[OakRiver]

Thank you all so much for the feedback. The idea is that my Company is on Terra during the Siege, so that gives me a little flexibility with what pieces I can use. I'm not currently thinking of using 40K plastics to make up a sizable portion of the force as I have the B@C set for that, just some of the more obviously Blood Angel pieces, which (if I'm reading the information correctly) could be explained as battlefield repairs/rebuilds based on incoming designs and the manufacturing moving from Mars to Terra. 

 

Currently most of the more Blood Angels specific helmets I have are Mk. VII but I have not yet convinced myself to use any of those.

[Ion]

The forgeworld BA MKIV helms are rather beautiful, if you have the cash they're a good choice

[Jackalwolf]

All legions had their own versions and artificers so if you use the "muscled" torsos and the sanguinary guard legs, you can say they're just custom mkiv since they're not recognisably mkvii.

 

I would, however, abstain from MKVII siege of terra using BA plastics mainly because:

- If using mkvii in Siege of Terra, it's a quick patchwork to make up for poor supply of mkiv and mkii, so it would not be as ornate and delicate as the BA kits in any case, which is clearly very laboured and doesn't fit with an emergency resupply.

 

BUT it is your army and whatever you like goes!

[Charlo]

I think mixing a few MkVII bits in would be quite acceptable - very few full suits but replaced and repaired components would work.

 

MkIII overall with a MkVII helm would actually look pretty cool and heavy.

[Kol Saresk]

As I'm working on my 30K Blood Angels force I'm finding that the best source of parts for customizing my force is 40K plastic kits. One of the challenges that I am faced with is that I want to have my Astartes with reasonably accurate period armor. Is there an accurate time line for when various marks of power armor come into service?

There was. And then Forgeworld made it interesting by having Mk V and Mk VII reminiscent patterns existing before the Heresy, as well as letting some of the Legions create their own patterns, and giving the Alpha Legion their own Mk VI. So on one hand, "yes". On the other hand, I'm not sure the answer can be quite as concise as we'd all like it to be. I know my OCD throws fits over it..

[DuskRaider]

Mk. III armour was actually developed to protect the XIVth in the tunnel campaigns against the Squat, of all races. I'm not sure if this has been retconned and the Squats never existed at this point, but that was the original reason for the additional front armour.

[Ryltar Thamior]

Well that was thoroughly annoying. Typed out a somewaht lengthy post, and computer issues ate it sans auto-save recoverability :/ 

Anyway. I did a bit more thinking about the Blood Angels range and kits you could viably use for 'historical accuracy'. First one that sprang to mind was the Sanguinary Guard. We already know that the jumppacks they're equipped with are quite close to a pattern that was in use around the time of the Heresy - the Mk.IV ones, to be precise. Unsure about the angel-wings, although there's some precedence for something like this with the Raven Guard Dark Fury squad's 'wings' either side of the jump-engine [edit: art for Azkaellon has him wiht wings on his jump-pack, so iguess they're in]. As applies the helmets ... I'm not sure if there's a direct precedent for anything like the Death Masks yet in 30k; but given a number of other Legions make a point of using broooadly analogous helmet designs presumably for psychological purposes [c.f the skull-mask helment from the Iron Warriors upgrades, as well as the skull from the Night Lords upgrades], I can certainly see it being viable for a specialist unit. The bigger left-side shoulder pads would also be potential, as they've got the right bulk and height for Mk.III, I reckon. And the torsos, as others have said, bear a certain resemblance to the broad outlines of Mk.IV chest-armour. Although the legs are probably non-incorperable unless you're prepared to put seriosu effort into redoing the knees to make htem look more like Mk.IV or something. 

Weapon-wise, we know that Inferno Pistols were much more common during the Heresy; although with regard to hte Angelus pattern bolters, whlst they DO look a little more 30k-appropriate than the standard Godwyn patterns [being squatter and more boxy, and closer to square in cross-section than high rectangle], there's no easy precedent that i'm aware of for the whole 'wrist-mounted hands free' mounting [outside of special characters like Perturabo]. Closest I could find was the Word Bearers Ashen Circle although despite some crossover in armament and also having a non-standard mounting , they use actual pistol grips and appear to simply reverse the position of the weapon from the top of the grip to the bottom, rather than properly 'wrist-mounting' it. [i'm still not sure how the Angels are supposed to fire their weapons, anyway - is it Black Carapace direct itnerfacing as a trigger mechanism, or do they twitch their wrists a bit or something]

The other kit with some potential is the Death Company box. Which has two sets of Mk.VI legs, one Mk.IV head, and one 'knightly' head of a pattern i'm not entirely sure of [althoug hi've previously believed that those general sorts of helms have tended to be Mk.IV - although it's also possible that it's Mk.III due to the grill, or a composite pattern created via field-repairs].

Then again, it's probably worth noting that if you've got the cash to procure either or both of these boxes [which work out as approximately 2/3rds the cost of one of the plastic HH-era tactical squads for 5 miniatures, of which only a relatively small proportion of which will likely be directly useful] - then it's possible you'd be better served by saving your pennies for a bit until you can buy the era-appropriate plastics. Having said that, it'd be pretty cool to see you come up with 30k-era Sanguinary Guard via kitbashing and conversion :D 

Another thought whicih I had which is a bit more .. out on a limb .. is that if we look at the new plastic Sanguinary Priest kit, we see he's wearing robes that cover most of the armour-mk distinguishing features [leg greaves, mostly]. Dependent upon how comfortable you are with 'fluff innovation' in this direction, you'd perhaps be able to use the robed legs fro mthe Dark Angels Veterans kit in a similar way and to similar effect. 

So there's another few thoughts. 

[Ryltar Thamior]

Now, I also did some thinking about bolters etc. - because those are obviously going to be something whih every Marine player has in abundance, and yet which people often jump on when it comes to "historical accuracy" as well.

Initially, i thought that the standard Godwyn pattern bolter was a post-Heresy invention. However, some googling and forum-stalking appears to indicate that this is not necessarily the case. We have reasonable evidence that the 'Ultima' pattern of bolter WAS in use around hte time of the Heresy - both in the form of a picture from Betrayal of a Death Guard marine using one, and also a picture of a Salamanders combi-flamer which is explicitly identified as being 'Ultima' pattern. How does this help you? Well, taking a look at the pictures available on Lexicanum & 40kWiki of the Ultima pattern, I'd say it's pretty difficult to tell the difference between Ultima pattern and Godwyn pattern [and, indeed,there's actually a modern Godwyn-Ultima pattern which is similarly similar looking] - the main distinguishmetn appears to be the lack of a winged skull on the Ultimas. 

So whilst I don't necessarily recommend it, lest it look anachronistic or lazy, it's certainly historically possible to have modern-looking bolters [with some minor alterations, as suggested, concerning iconography] from your spare Tactical Squads or wahtever on your 30k force. 

[OakRiver]

I think that I am luckier than some other gamers in a way in that I currently have a very limited bitz box aside from what I have bought from bitz sellers for this project as emigrating will make you very discriminating over what you can actually reasonably take with you. 

 

All these responses are excellent and help a lot. For now my tentative plan is to continue using the B@C set as the mainstay for my IX Legion. I did order some Death Company legs and I got the BA Tactical Squad box mainly for the legs, torsos, pauldrons, some close quarters weapons, and some additional details. I don't have any plans to use full sets of MkVII armor in my force, but some of the legs may be used to add variety/more dynamic posing.

[rendingon1+]

At least you can't go wrong with artificer armour. According to FW:

Forged by the master craftsmen of the Mechanicum, these
superior variations of power armour are often highly embellished
with ciphers of strength and durability, while some of wildly
differing designs are far older than the present age and owe their
origins to the forgotten zenith of human technological might.

In games with people he didn't like lol my friend used plastic imperial guard sergeant with las pistol and chainsword as a praetor in artificer armour, paragon blade and archeotech pistol  because fluff text says they're essentially everything you want them to be.

 

As for more common marks of armour, "accuracy" went out of the window almost at the start of FW HH series. We have mk4 helmets that look exactly like mk7, mk2 cuirass that looks like mk7 and almost every legion has it's own armour "(parts) variants that are sometimes completely different to mainstrem etc. I think 40k bits here and there are perfectly acceptable.

[OakRiver]

Now, I also did some thinking about bolters etc. - because those are obviously going to be something whih every Marine player has in abundance, and yet which people often jump on when it comes to "historical accuracy" as well.

 

Initially, i thought that the standard Godwyn pattern bolter was a post-Heresy invention. However, some googling and forum-stalking appears to indicate that this is not necessarily the case. We have reasonable evidence that the 'Ultima' pattern of bolter WAS in use around hte time of the Heresy - both in the form of a picture from Betrayal of a Death Guard marine using one, and also a picture of a Salamanders combi-flamer which is explicitly identified as being 'Ultima' pattern. How does this help you? Well, taking a look at the pictures available on Lexicanum & 40kWiki of the Ultima pattern, I'd say it's pretty difficult to tell the difference between Ultima pattern and Godwyn pattern [and, indeed,there's actually a modern Godwyn-Ultima pattern which is similarly similar looking] - the main distinguishmetn appears to be the lack of a winged skull on the Ultimas. 

 

So whilst I don't necessarily recommend it, lest it look anachronistic or lazy, it's certainly historically possible to have modern-looking bolters [with some minor alterations, as suggested, concerning iconography] from your spare Tactical Squads or wahtever on your 30k force. 

I did obtain a Deathwatch Stalker boltgun to outfit a part of the force, with the idea that it was a prototype designated marksman rifle