Why I am not interested in HH Salamanders?

[Xisor]

Indefragable posted this over on another thread, but I think it's a fascinating observation. Myself, I'm keen to whinge about Salamanders, but the more general point is pretty compelling too, and I'd be happy to see that discussed too.

 

 

Long complicated answer that not many people outside of GW Marketing Insight interns will find interesting:

Hidden Content

A combo of the two. If I could do math, I would try to make an algorithm that shows how (interest + availability)x reputation all divided by timing or something is what makes me read Title A instead of Title B. But I can hardly do math (not good for a hobby based on dice probability) and that would bore everyone to death.

 

Scars I read because I knew I would eventually want to read it and it happened to be on the book store (remember those?) shelf when others were not*. In contrast, alot of the Salamanders story arcs (Deathfire or something?) I have seen on many shelves, yet their reputation (fair or unfair) means I will probably never read them. I find the Salamanders interesting....but not interesting enough, if you will**. So a consistent reputation among the faithful community (again, whether fair or not) means that they get shunted way down the priority list.

 

*Why did I know I wanted to read it? Combination of things:

1) a cool shtick ("Mongols in spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace")

2) ....that had not really been explored much at that point

3) ....reputation ("hey, this one's really good!")

 

**Why I am not that interested in the HH Salamanders?

1) what exactly is their "thing?" Compare to "Mongols in spaaaaaaaaace". Arguably, being more complex and nuanced should be a good thing, but it's kind of hard to figure out what makes the XVIII interesting besides FIRE!!!!!

2) Vulkan should be one of the coolest dudes in all of the HH literature: the closest thing to a genuine good guy among all the grimdark. Yet--as far as I am aware--he has not (yet) had his moment in the sun to really get to know him. I understand that Vulkan Lives might be the closest thing to that moment for him...is that true? If so, then it's still a bit less appealing to pick up a book that is essentially one giant torture scene compared to ones that have primarchs laughing while riding into battle (again, fair or unfair, that's how the mind works).

3) the reputation collective voices in the community have towards titles such as Promethean Sun and Deathfire.

 

Now...all of the above flows together and multiples itself. So I could be totally wrong about Vulkan/Salamanders, but because I have stayed away from them, I am thus less likely to pick up those arcs or "invest" in that whole storyline. It all feeds into each other and exasperates the extremities of opinion. Kind of like what's happening in our modern political world, eh? Something something echo chambers something something.

 

Fundamentally, I agree: the Salamanders *should* be super interesting. But I think, in the HH, their current deal means they just aren't. And that's intensified because of the bad rep they get - but it's not an entirely undeserved bad rep either.

 

Some of it is mainly to do with Kyme's dominion over them. I liked "Vulkan Lives", but it's not "Scars". Worse, I van see why people hate it, and it's ilk.

 

But it can't purely be that. Salamanders have cropped up across the series - Damnation of Pythos, the crew of the Sisyphus, the Unremembered Empire etc.

 

The problem is: they're not used or exploited for narrative gain. Their representation is as novel and interesting as Brynngar the space wolf in "Battle for the Abyss" - minus the endearing character arc. He was horribly caricatured - Vulkan only has his defining traits: stoic, empathic, decent.

 

Furthrr disproof that Kyme is to blame: The best Salamanders presentations have been Kyme's, by far. The early parts of Deathfire, the best elements of Vulkan Lives, the entirety of "Artefacts" and "Scorched Earth" are really, genuinely good points in the HH.

 

Unfortunately most are buried under flamehammered fireforges and drakescale volcanotongs. Ripe with stoic endurance and trying to do the good thing.

 

(The Dark Angels suffer from this too - they're at their best when the plots and events have very little ties to "The Fallen" or the Lion's loyalty - when it's just characters terse struggling. Similarly Chris Wraight's White Scars are excellent not for their mongolianness, nor their love of speed - but for all their other stuff that goes along with it, in depth and in nuance and contrast.)

 

---

 

As such, I genuinely think there's a lot of things that could and should be brilliant about the Salamanders and Vulkan. But it just isn't presented. Vulkan's place in the Unremembered Empire? Meaningless. (And forgotten by Pharos - I don't think the line "nobody cared" cuts it for a couple of hundred Marines, as far as anyone knows the remnant of an entire Legion, going AWOL from the Imperium Secundus. I digress.)

 

For me: it's a lot of "...and then this happened" - not the meat and potatoes of a good story. Even the lovely details are diminished by the constant (and undealt in) themes; a huge degree of stating themes, no real engagement or playing with them.

 

Much like my gripes with Graham McNeill's choices in his stories, I'd love to see a revised edition of the Salamanders arcs - where Numeon has to engage in bizarre politics to get Vulkan out of IS without betraying everything Vulkan stood for. I'd love to see Salamanders trying not to backslide into pre-Vulkan tactics, how they try to build back from the brink.

 

I'd love to see them make hard decisions in a drawn out, difficult way. I'd love to see their odyssey across the Imperium be an opportunity to show the breadth of the Imperium in the very heart of the Horus Heresy, each step faced with horrific, apocalyptic decisions (etc).

 

A chance to explore cultures and change and history in the greatest fire the Human Galaxy has ever seen.

 

---

 

But that hasn't happened. Instead we have Deathfire and killhammer and forgegun and drakebreath and dragonblade.

 

Imagine if the Space Wolves had spent the Heresy trapped in, at best, drunken space vikings with no greater depth? That's, more or less, the bulk of the Salamanders' fiction in the HH, but with fire and humanity rather than ice and booze.

 

---

 

"Scorched Earth" and "Artefacts" are genuinely excellent stories showcasing the best Salamanders storylines, and I found a great deal of enjoyment in "Vulkan Lives" conpared to many HH books. And I've not yet read "Sons of the Forge" yet.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Xisor

[Roomsky]

Great post. I agree on Artifacts, very solid and a nice miniature character study for Vulkan while also pushing the agenda of the short (this is how his artifacts were chosen!). But even between that, Imperfect, Chirurgeon, and the Thiel shorts, I can't bring myself to read Vulkan Lives or Deathfire, mostly because of their truly awful reputation. That and primarchs in first person sounds like a horrible mistake.

 

But I absolutely think you're right in that the core of the problem is that there's no real depth to their portrayal. Like the Blood Angels, there's no interesting distinction between the legion now and the chapter in 10,000 years. One of the first legions to lose their primarch (for a while, at least), and arguably the most ill-equipped for the sudden betrayal of their brothers, but they're still all super nice guys who like to forge things and don't know the definition of "pragmatism". It's like the Dark Angels, they have their shallow 40k character traits for brand recognition, I guess.

[Marshal Rohr]

I really like the Forge World characterization as a front line shock assault formation. It made them seems like heavy hitters.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Salamanders Iron hands and raven guard all got such a raw deal.

 

But mainly the salamanders.

[Indefragable]

Indefragable posted this over on another thread, but I think it's a fascinating observation. Myself, I'm keen to whinge about Salamanders, but the more general point is pretty compelling too, and I'd be happy to see that discussed too.

 

 

all the stuff I said previously

 

 

Glad my comments inspired further reflection. I'm sure everyone has similar tales, but with the variables changed (rather than Salamanders, insert Emperor's Children or something). 

 

It's fascinating in its own way.

 

For what it's worth, I think the Salamanders are pretty cool. A good friend of mine (who I kinda sorta brought into the game) plays them in 40k, so I definitely like them and want to be interested in them.....but alas, the BL stuff just does not cut it. 

 

For me, a lot of it comes back to my perennial issue with BL material : telling instead of showing. "Oh Vulkan is a nice guy. He's the nicest of the Primarchs." Ok....cool.....why? What scenes/instances/scenarios can we observe so that we can see for ourselves why this is? So and so forth.

 

If BL had a sort of litmus test, a pair of cows for each Primarch/Legion to interact with, then it would be different. 

 

Salamanders Iron hands and raven guard all got such a raw deal.

 

But mainly the salamanders.

 

See, this is where it gets interesting. Yes, in a narrative sense those 3 Legions got proper :cuss - ed. From a quality of writing standpoint, that argument can be made, since an argument can almost always be made about something subjective. However, there has been a decent quantity of writing on those three Legions. There are actually quite a few stories and even novels devoted to them (exact names escaping me), or at least heavily featuring them (I'm thinking Vengeful Spirit where the first 1/4 is about just how audacious Shendrak Meduson is). Compare that to some other Legions <cough> IX <cough> where there is so little written about them, and you can see how "good" you have it.

 

....of course, quantity does not equal quality (unless you're talking Orkz and Tyranids) so the fact that so much has been written can be part of the problem, especially if not much of it has been good. 

[Jareddm]

The fact that I consider the best Salamanders stories to be 1) The pair of short stories in Meduson, Unforged and Unbroken, and 2) the "Upon the Anvil of War" chapter in Horus Heresy 6: Retribution, shows exactly why I agree wholeheartedly that the Salamanders never got that real "Aha!" moment where their characterization just fits in perfectly.

 

That said, I highly recommend all three of the above stories for those who want to get just a little bit more out of the Salamanders, because personally, none of their other stories did anything for me.

[bluntblade]

I quite liked Xa'ven, who did get some moments to be the most reasonable man in the room, but then he was largely overshadowed by Bion Henricos, who is a more compelling character and one who seems to have interested the author more.

[Kelborn]

I was a huge Salamanders fan when I started with Warhammer. Even more than Space Wolves as the Salamanders were supposed to be THE good guys in a desperate setting. Simply loved it.

 

I bought their Omnibus and read the first part. I did enjoy it. First time, I've read something about schemings and backstabbing in a Space Marine chapter.

 

Yeah, most of you dislike Kymes stuff. I know what you mean but in the end (and though it did took me some time to finish it), imho it was not bad at all. Nevertheless and for reasons I completely forgot, I stopped reading it. Maybe that's why I haven't read any HH stuff including the Salamanders except from FW, which is really good and well done.

 

Maybe I'll read some stories in the future. Maybe not. For the time being, I've read too many "bad" reviews that I'm rather focusing on other novels and Legions.

 

And I totally agree with you, Xisor. The Legion has / had potential. The switch from a desperate, we're going to die anyway Legion into a good-guy Legion under Vulkan is something I'd like to read about. I really hope that the Primarch: Vulkan novel will be good and cover something of (my) interest.

[Brother Dougal]

Wow. So many of you seem to share my exact story. I'm almost scared to even share it with you cause it feels like I could just copy/paste what you guys have written and it'd be spot on.

 

.....well you know what? I think I'm gonna go ahead and buy a Salamanders novel. I Do love the idea of them, they were my first favorites and I want to go see what they're about. Maybe I'll find a copy of Nick's new novel, Rebirth, and give that a try. It has Adepta Sororitas too, one of the other under-appreciated factions of the Imperium. Why the smurf not?

 

Btw, was anyone else smurfed that Vulkan's appearance in The Beast Arises involved next to no Salamanders at all? He was definitely cool, but it was just him. Does that count as a Salamanders novel?

[bluntblade]

Well, when you say why not, my instinct is to suggest you buy a different Legion's book, but that'd hardly be helpful.

[Noserenda]

Its the Fireforgehammer ness that does my nut in, pulls me right out of the story every time. That and Nocturnean names are just so interchangeable it makes it harder for a character to be memorable... But like the Above i really like the FW depiction and it sometimes makes me consider them more as an army but then i see they are exactly like their 40k incarnation in some many ways and it murders my keen.

I mean they had some of the most traumatic heresies and it did absolutely nothing to them. Nothing at all! 

[Brother Dougal]

I haven't really looked at Forge World often. When you talk about that place being one of their better representations, can you elaborate? Is there something specific to read there? I thought they were just super expensive models.

 

So when you guys talk about the Fire/forge/hammer stuff being overdone, you're saying it's something like what some people say about the Wolves? Referring to how their Codex's text uses the word 'Wolf' more often than the word 'the', as compared to their books, where they are Smurf-awesome in many many ways?

[Tymell]

While I don't outright hate Nick Kyme's work, I do agree that the Salamanders are one of the weaker aspects of the HH. As a whole, their legion has probably had the worst overall quality, or so I would argue, and I think it's a shame other authors didn't (get to) try them more (I have no idea whether this was due to Nick Kyme, BL, other authors, or some combination of the three). It's only a few short stories, but some of my favourite Salamanders stuff was Guy Haley's trio, "Strike and Fade", "Unforged" and "Unspoken". They didn't exactly build a big legion identity, but I wouldn't really expect that in three shorts. But they did create characters I cared about and tales I enjoyed, and would like to see more of.

 

Artefacts is another good one, though in a way it actually made me dislike Vulkan Lives even more, because I felt Artefacts highlighted what -should- have been the focus on that novel. In Artefacts I really got a feel of Vulkan's sadness at what the Heresy meant. How he, as one of the most optimistic and honest of his brothers, felt this betrayal so heavily. Unlike a lot of the others, he didn't seem simply consumed with rage and a desire for vengeance. He seemed heart-broken at the shattering of the dream. That's what I would have loved to have seen in Vulkan Lives.

Part of it is Nick Kyme's characters often just aren't very interesting or well-developed. Though that said, I do feel he has become better at creating decent characters as he's gone: In Vulkan Lives, I felt almost all the characters save for Vulkan himself were completely forgettable; in Deathfire they were still very similar, but had some memorability; in Sons of the Forge I actually liked and enjoyed some of them. For me they still weren't as good as characters by various other authors, but I could see an improvement.

 

Another part is that the Salamanders, as a legion, are consistently in the same position, and it's one of weakness. This makes sense with them being one of the shattered legions of course, but the others both get chances to shine in their own way: Corax organises his guerrilla war to fight back against the traitors, and without their primarch, some members of the Iron Hands gather warbands to fight their own way, like Meduson, Atticus, Crius and Autek Mor. They're underdogs and usually outgunned, but they have opportunities to prove their worth and get us, the audience, invested in them. The Salamanders are almost always on the back-foot, always making a last stand or retreating. I feel the same way about it as I do about certain characters in TV series' who just complain all the time: it's not to say it's a badly-written character, it's just not that fun or enjoyable to watch.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Tymell

[Sandlemad]

Seconding the view on the FW depiction. It is fairly cursory and building on the background from the old Index Astartes, but there's more hints of interesting possibilities there than in the Bl novels. The 'trefoil' thing, the pre-primarch deathwish, the close relationship with the army, Vulkan kneeling before his troops, the not-particularly-secular Promethean Cult, the assault on the Tempest Galleries. Massacre does it all without overt or excessive reference to fire and being reforged, but that constant testing and enduring thing is emphasised.

 

The weird religious esotericism that you see developing in Xiaphas Jurr and his men is a lot more interesting than the mantra of 'Vulkan Lives!' as a reaction to the loss of your primarch. Cassian Vaughn's feverish messianic quest across a galaxy at war has more dramatic potential than most of Deathfire.

[bluntblade]

I always wanted a little elaboration on Yesugei's "Promethean Cult is dangerous" statement, be that from the weather-maker himself or another story.

[HeritorA]

Why I'm not interested in Salamanders - easiest explanation: editor decision to make Vulkan 'perpetual'  and Kyme.

Poor Salamanders simply lose in dice with Ranald

[Tymell]

I always wanted a little elaboration on Yesugei's "Promethean Cult is dangerous" statement, be that from the weather-maker himself or another story.

 

I feel like this could be another interesting direction to take them in. While not anything like as fanatical as the Word Bearers, the Salamanders do seem to have a bit more of a religious leaning than others. Throw in the turmoil and revelations of the Heresy and you've got a potential dangerous mix. There were hints of that in Cassian Vaughn/Dracos in the FW books, both in how his followers came to revere him and in some of the mystery of what he got up to. Not that he felt like a villain, just that we don't get a clear explanation for at least one of his actions, and it could be seen in a worrying light, even if it is with good intent.

 

Again, this is something I think the other shattered legions had, but the Salamanders are lacking: both the Raven Guard and Iron Hands can be seen going to possibly dark extremes in their thirst for revenge. The Salamanders' desire might be a little more positive (recovering their primarch rather than simple vengeance, perhaps), but could still be taken down a darker road, which could have made for some interesting story-telling.

[HeritorA]

'Again, this is something I think the other shattered legions had, but the Salamanders are lacking: both the Raven Guard and Iron Hands can be seen going to possibly dark extremes in their thirst for revenge. The Salamanders' desire might be a little more positive (recovering their primarch rather than simple vengeance, perhaps), but could still be taken down a darker road, which could have made for some interesting story-telling.'

 

- if only

[Marshal Loss]

Agree with everybody above on the FW depiction side of things. I've either disliked or been indifferent to every HH Salamanders novel, but I really loved the weird shenanigans they get up to in Book VI: Retribution. A sect of the goody goody Legion being wiped from history, along with the original incumbent of that Dreadnought shell (Dracos?). I suspect it's one of FW's many tantalising mysteries that we'll never find out the answer to, but damn it sounds interesting.

[HeritorA]

Agree with everybody above on the FW depiction side of things. I've either disliked or been indifferent to every HH Salamanders novel, but I really loved the weird shenanigans they get up to in Book VI: Retribution. A sect of the goody goody Legion being wiped from history, along with the original incumbent of that Dreadnought shell (Dracos?). I suspect it's one of FW's many tantalising mysteries that we'll never find out the answer to, but damn it sounds interesting.

Forge World depiction of Salamanders is MILES better than the crap written by Kyme. Plain and simple

[Jareddm]

 

Again, this is something I think the other shattered legions had, but the Salamanders are lacking: both the Raven Guard and Iron Hands can be seen going to possibly dark extremes in their thirst for revenge. The Salamanders' desire might be a little more positive (recovering their primarch rather than simple vengeance, perhaps), but could still be taken down a darker road, which could have made for some interesting story-telling.

 

This is why I appreciate the Haley shorts, as they are the closest thing I've seen to what you're talking about.

 

They showcase Salamander Isstvan V survivors dealing with those feelings of vengeance and how they relate to Vulkan's teachings.  In the end, the main character restores his weapons and armor, but his pauldron maintains a black background, rather than green, signifying that he has not given up his need for vengeance, but that he will not be blinded by it like he was on Isstvan.

 

That said, I'd like to try to phrase my feelings of what could be focused on the Salamanders to give them a stronger personality.

 

It's very common that the Salamanders get grouped in with the Iron Hands as "the legions that make things."  But I actually have a different legion in mind.  The Dark Angels.  One of the classic themes of the Dark Angels is of the Arthurian knight.  The slayer of great beasts in the forests.  But I feel the Salamanders capture the other half of that theme, the search for divinity/enlightenment in physical form.  Excalibur and the lady of the lake or the quest for the holy grail.

 

Now I know what you're thinking.  There's already the quest for the artifacts of Vulkan in 40k!  Yes, but plenty of other primarchs had similar collections of artifacts, if not as extensively.  Why, in 30k, do the Salamanders care so much for their legion's creations?  And why in 40k was that warped into a literal quest?  Because the weapons and armor crafted by the Salamanders are purposefully crafted to capture their history and the emotions of the marines that created them. The Salamanders express themselves through their works, far more than any other legion, except perhaps the Blood Angels.  In 30k, rather than questing externally for divine relics, they quest internally to bring their self, their turmoils, their ambitions, their revelations, into being, in the form of truly glorious artifacts.

 

The works of the Iron Hands are wonders of science and engineering.  Their works seek to master the physical world.  The works of the Iron Warriors are robust, efficient, and endlessly replicable.  Their works seek to master the warzone.  But the works of the Salamanders are created as reflections of their creator's being.  They are a way of storing the emotions that several legions find great difficulty in coming to terms with, and perhaps helps to explain part of their strong kinship with normal humans.  Their works seek to master the self.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Jareddm

[HeritorA]

 

 

Again, this is something I think the other shattered legions had, but the Salamanders are lacking: both the Raven Guard and Iron Hands can be seen going to possibly dark extremes in their thirst for revenge. The Salamanders' desire might be a little more positive (recovering their primarch rather than simple vengeance, perhaps), but could still be taken down a darker road, which could have made for some interesting story-telling.

 

This is why I appreciate the Haley shorts, as they are the closest thing I've seen to what you're talking about.

 

They showcase Salamander Isstvan V survivors dealing with those feelings of vengeance and how they relate to Vulkan's teachings.  In the end, the main character restores his weapons and armor, but his pauldron maintains a black background, rather than green, signifying that he has not given up his need for vengeance, but that he will not be blinded by it like he was on Isstvan.

 

That said, I'd like to try to phrase my feelings of what could be focused on the Salamanders to give them a stronger personality.

 

It's very common that the Salamanders get grouped in with the Iron Hands as "the legions that make things."  But I actually have a different legion in mind.  The Dark Angels.  One of the classic themes of the Dark Angels is of the Arthurian knight.  The slayer of great beasts in the forests.  But I feel the Salamanders capture the other half of that theme, the search for divinity/enlightenment in physical form.  Excalibur and the lady of the lake or the quest for the holy grail.

 

Now I know what you're thinking.  There's already the quest for the artifacts of Vulkan in 40k!  Yes, but plenty of other primarchs had similar collections of artifacts, if not as extensively.  Why, in 30k, do the Salamanders care so much for their legion's creations?  And why in 40k was that warped into a literal quest?  Because the weapons and armor crafted by the Salamanders are purposefully crafted to capture their history and the emotions of the marines that created them. The Salamanders express themselves through their works, far more than any other legion, except perhaps the Blood Angels.  In 30k, rather than questing externally for divine relics, they quest internally to bring their self, their turmoils, their ambitions, their revelations, into being, in the form of truly glorious artifacts.

 

The works of the Iron Hands are wonders of science and engineering.  Their works seek to master the physical world.  The works of the Iron Warriors are robust, efficient, and endlessly replicable.  Their works seek to master the warzone.  But the works of the Salamanders are created as reflections of their creator's being.  They are a way of storing the emotions that several legions find great difficulty in coming to terms with, and perhaps helps to explain part of their strong kinship with normal humans.  Their works seek to master the self.

 

All great points. But the same 'Arthurian' vision is kind of hard to attach to the Salamanders in any way possible. They are 'too' different to the true 'Arthurian vision'. They are more akin to some african cultures of Botswana/Angola/Cameroon etc.

 

'The Salamanders express themselves through their works, far more than any other legion, except perhaps the Blood Angels.'   - true, through the artworks of both are quite different. Salamanders epitomise the stuff of destruction, but the Blood Angels build frescos, galleries, paint pictures and stuff of splendour.

[DarkChaplain]

Damn, my net goes out for a day and we get some interesting discussion going here.

 

Thinking about it, I can't really say I'm too thrilled by the Sallies either. I don't dislike their books in the HH, and think they get some pretty neat scenes, and Artifacts was a blast, but there's nothing definitive to draw me to them either. Huh.

 

I think it has a lot to do with them being shown, or at least said, to care more about civilians than other Legions. They're the "good guy" Legion who tries to help and rebuild more than tick boxes and leave.

But we have not seen any of that, really. In a galactic civil war where they got used to mop up the floor of Isstvan V, they never really had a chance to show how they care for the regular folk, their approach to Legion warfare and the likes. They're constantly relegated to odd jobs, be they diplomatic missions in Age of Darkness, looking for something, ferrying their dead Primarch home, or the likes.

 

They're never really shown in control of situations. Promethean Sun could have shown that, but it was too heavy on action for it to work well. That, and Artifacts, were the only stories so far that showed them before Isstvan, and both suffer from being short. Promethean Sun in addition to that also suffers from having no chapters whatsoever, so the whole thing read like a chore to me. It lacked structure in my eyes, and as a result things blend together in my memory and I can't feel enthusiastic about it.

 

What they really need is a conflict that highlights their dedication to humanity. Not their loyalty to Vulkan, or their self-sacrificing nature for his works. They need something where the conflict is more of a human level, with saving people, or evacuating them, taking the center of the stage.

Funnily enough, I think that Magnus the Red: Master of Prospero's main scenario would have been brilliant for a Salamanders novel - the logistics, the attempts to save as many people as possible, and the eventual realization that sacrifices have to be made not just by them, but the people they are trying to rescue, could have been a great, nuanced read that highlights the mentality of the Legion.

 

Hopefully there'll be some of that in Old Earth, trying to protect the people of Terra. But I doubt the momentum of the series at this point allows for it to the degree that'd be necessary. This is one of the cases where I'd love to see an unnumbered novel like Betrayal at Calth, taking a step back from the main plotlines and just showcasing the remains of a company that fled Isstvan trying to do their jobs. They need to be shown as active, in control and choosing their own direction, rather than being so fully reactionary or passive like they've been shown so far.

[Jareddm]

All great points. But the same 'Arthurian' vision is kind of hard to attach to the Salamanders in any way possible. They are 'too' different to the true 'Arthurian vision'. They are more akin to some african cultures of Botswana/Angola/Cameroon etc.

Do you have some sources that present those cultures succinctly? Not from 40k but in terms of actual culture.

The vast majority of Western readers are going to have no exposure to any of those.

 

The Salamanders express themselves through their works, far more than any other legion, except perhaps the Blood Angels.' - true, through the artworks of both are quite different. Salamanders epitomise the stuff of destruction, but the Blood Angels build frescos, galleries, paint pictures and stuff of splendour.

A fresco or a gallery can not be taken with you and carried on your person. It can not act as a personal touchstone when you need to draw upon the emotions they contain. I'm just saying that the Blood Angels reasoning for their artistic pursuits is very different from the Salamanders.

[Indefragable]

Damn, my net goes out for a day and we get some interesting discussion going here.

 

Thinking about it, I can't really say I'm too thrilled by the Sallies either. I don't dislike their books in the HH, and think they get some pretty neat scenes, and Artifacts was a blast, but there's nothing definitive to draw me to them either. Huh.

 

I think it has a lot to do with them being shown, or at least said, to care more about civilians than other Legions. They're the "good guy" Legion who tries to help and rebuild more than tick boxes and leave.

But we have not seen any of that, really. In a galactic civil war where they got used to mop up the floor of Isstvan V, they never really had a chance to show how they care for the regular folk, their approach to Legion warfare and the likes. They're constantly relegated to odd jobs, be they diplomatic missions in Age of Darkness, looking for something, ferrying their dead Primarch home, or the likes.

 

They're never really shown in control of situations. Promethean Sun could have shown that, but it was too heavy on action for it to work well. That, and Artifacts, were the only stories so far that showed them before Isstvan, and both suffer from being short. Promethean Sun in addition to that also suffers from having no chapters whatsoever, so the whole thing read like a chore to me. It lacked structure in my eyes, and as a result things blend together in my memory and I can't feel enthusiastic about it.

 

What they really need is a conflict that highlights their dedication to humanity. Not their loyalty to Vulkan, or their self-sacrificing nature for his works. They need something where the conflict is more of a human level, with saving people, or evacuating them, taking the center of the stage.

Funnily enough, I think that Magnus the Red: Master of Prospero's main scenario would have been brilliant for a Salamanders novel - the logistics, the attempts to save as many people as possible, and the eventual realization that sacrifices have to be made not just by them, but the people they are trying to rescue, could have been a great, nuanced read that highlights the mentality of the Legion.

 

Hopefully there'll be some of that in Old Earth, trying to protect the people of Terra. But I doubt the momentum of the series at this point allows for it to the degree that'd be necessary. This is one of the cases where I'd love to see an unnumbered novel like Betrayal at Calth, taking a step back from the main plotlines and just showcasing the remains of a company that fled Isstvan trying to do their jobs. They need to be shown as active, in control and choosing their own direction, rather than being so fully reactionary or passive like they've been shown so far.

 

It would be a marvelous little story to show how the XVIII fights and handles its pair of cows... 

 

Hidden Content

There are two worlds in a system, one inhabited by humans, the other aliens. The Imperial beancounters lodge formal complaints with Vulkan for how long it is taking the Salamanders to subdue the system. They even Horus sends a slightly inquisitive, slightly bemused note about why they are behind schedule. Vulkan just replies back "it takes time to get the forge to its proper temperature, otherwise the steel comes out wanting." 

 

The XVIII steadily march forward throughout the human world. At each major settlement they allow civilians and non-combatants to flee before attacking. This takes time, effort, and many enemies use the civilians as cover to escape as well. The Salamanders take this in stride and continue their same forgiving approach until at last there are only pockets of resistance left, and it is obvious to all but the most brainwashed resistors that compliance is far better than resistance. The world is integrated into the Imperium swiftly and with minimal friction. Many of the resistors join the ranks of the Salamanders and when they move on to their next assignment, both the Legion--and just as importantly--their Imperial Army contigents--are almost fully intact. 

 

On the xenos-inhabited (infested?) world, a similar methodical approach is applied with the XVIII Legionarries taking the time to purge every nook and cranny of the planet's surface, often literally leaving no stone unturned. Every foot of the planet that is taken is never recaptured.  It is slow going, but the xenos find nowhere to run nor anywhere to hide and can do little more than hurl themselves in desperation at the Salamanders while they are burned out of their holes. In the end, not a single xenos lives and not a single Legionary nor Imperial Army contingent is needed to garrison the planet. 

 

As the fleet moves on to its next destination, it rendezvouses with a Luna Wolves task force requesting supplies. They are on its way to put down a rebellion in a sector it had previously conquered. "Thank you for your assistance, brothers," the XVI commander says. "We took many casualties in the capture of that system and are likely to take more." The Salamander commander nods in understanding and offers a Company of his own veterans to aid them. The Luna Wolves are pleased, yet surprised: "we are honored that you would send us some of your best, but is it necessary? Surely you can simply send us some expendable forces of  your auxiliaries or less precious Imperial Army units?"

 

The Salamander commander responds: "The auxiliaries and Army units are precious precisely because they are expendable. The jeweler's hammer is precious precisely because it is not the sledgehammer." 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gaaaaaah. I can't get that last sentence the way I want it. Oh well....

 

 

 

 

All great points. But the same 'Arthurian' vision is kind of hard to attach to the Salamanders in any way possible. They are 'too' different to the true 'Arthurian vision'. They are more akin to some african cultures of Botswana/Angola/Cameroon etc.

Do you have some sources that present those cultures succinctly? Not from 40k but in terms of actual culture.

The vast majority of Western readers are going to have no exposure to any of those.

 

The Salamanders express themselves through their works, far more than any other legion, except perhaps the Blood Angels.' - true, through the artworks of both are quite different. Salamanders epitomise the stuff of destruction, but the Blood Angels build frescos, galleries, paint pictures and stuff of splendour.

A fresco or a gallery can not be taken with you and carried on your person. It can not act as a personal touchstone when you need to draw upon the emotions they contain. I'm just saying that the Blood Angels reasoning for their artistic pursuits is very different from the Salamanders.

 

 

Salamanders make war their art, so much of their craft is in the creation of weapons and armor. 

 

Blood Angels make war to preserve their art, so much of their craft is the creation of things that should stay off the battlefield.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Indefragable