Why I am not interested in HH Salamanders?

[Brother Dougal]

Well, general opinions may generally be right, but now I'm gonna get my own. Just bought my copy of Rebirth today, so now I'll see for myself if Mr. Nick Kyme deserves all the bad press he gets.

 

People don't seem to like Phil Kelly either, but he's the only guy who's writing Tau novels right now from their perspective, and he's doing my boy Farsight, so mediocre or not I'm gonna keep reading his stuff. Thank you GW, for finally giving me Farsight's story. It's not Haley, but it's not that bad either.

 

And if I can like Phil's stuff for covering my favorite aliens, then by golly I can still indulge in one of my favorite Chapters, too. Bring it on, Nick!

[DarkChaplain]

Its not for a lack of interest that Kelly's the only one writing Tau. Him writing Farsight actually goes back to an announcement from before the big shift to marketing brochures, I believe.

 

Keep in mind that Rebirth is set after the original Tome of Fire trilogy and pretty much all the short stories that are in the Omnibus/Tome of Fire anthology. Might be worth getting an overview of what's what for dangling plotlines.

[Indefragable]

Well, general opinions may generally be right, but now I'm gonna get my own. Just bought my copy of Rebirth today, so now I'll see for myself if Mr. Nick Kyme deserves all the bad press he gets.

 

People don't seem to like Phil Kelly either, but he's the only guy who's writing Tau novels right now from their perspective, and he's doing my boy Farsight, so mediocre or not I'm gonna keep reading his stuff. Thank you GW, for finally giving me Farsight's story. It's not Haley, but it's not that bad either.

 

And if I can like Phil's stuff for covering my favorite aliens, then by golly I can still indulge in one of my favorite Chapters, too. Bring it on, Nick!

 

Just what Tau need: plot armor. 

 

[Kais Klip]

I've pondered on this before. I really would like to play Sallies, but something inside me just goes "No...".

 

Its the fact that they're all black. Unequivocally, no-doubts-about it, every single one of them is black.

 

Now bear with me.

 

Take the Raven Guard. Their "carebear", better-than-tau good guy nature is balanced amiably by the Charcharadons, Nomad Predation Fleets, their past slavering habits, and their propensity for falling into darkness (sorry) within stressfull situations.

 

The Salamanders have no such balance. Just as they are unequivocally, no-ifs-or-buts black, they are just as good and "carebear". Which in my opinion is both incredibly restricting and boring. These are the guys that burn people alive, and they are treated as the moral compass for the entire series. Even the Ultramarines (now I really am baiting) get better and deeper characterisation than "they're all black gentle giants".

 

We could have had another hardcore, amiably-belligerent Legion like the Iron Hands (that suffered just as much), with a propensity for violent, bigoted martyrism that would make the VIIth and IVth look like wimps, but all we have is a one-dimensional cut-out that teased us with a wonderfully multifaceted nature pre-vulkan, which was then snuffed out (ill go home now) by the coming of Vulkan.

 

Give me one, official green light to make my multi-ethnic, grief-scarred genocidal Salamander Predation Fleet that would make the game of thrones Mad King look like a firefighter in comparison, and you'll see a new WIP blog at the drop of the hat. A part of the Legion that finally took Curze's lesson, a Legion that understands love, forgiveness and kindness is a slave morality that in this universe only gets you killed faster and sees your dreams unfulfilled.

 

I don't even mind if you proceed to Gate 42 them, I am asking for grimdarkness after all. But just give me a way out to give these guys some depth besides "its tough to be good in a universe of bad, but not really, cause your father comes back from the dead and you win all you battles by the power of kindness."

 

Why is that that morally-good Iron Hands commander that stops to pick up some survivors from Istvaan V gets wrecked by 40k Anti-Karma, but the Salamanders haven't yet got what's coming for them?

Edited April 4, 2017 by Kais Klip

[Brother Dougal]

One official green-light you say?

Death of Antagonis, by David Annandale. The Black Dragons. A.k.a. 'The Emperor's Monsters'. Boom. *drops mic*

Edited July 31, 2017 by Lord Thørn
Quote removed

[Kais Klip]

Squee, do not play with my heart so, fair knight.

 

I... I will be back in just a moment.

 

Edit: eugh, I'd rather sink my teeth into something 30k themed, and in a context slightly better written than "heretical load bearing walls".

Edited April 5, 2017 by Kais Klip

[Brother Dougal]

Squee, do not play with my heart so, fair knight.

 

I... I will be back in just a moment.

 

Edit: eugh, I'd rather sink my teeth into something 30k themed, and in a context slightly better written than "heretical load bearing walls".

Sorry, buddy. I guess I'm just of the opinion that you gotta take what you can get. If I spent forever waiting for Guy Haley to write a Tau trilogy I'd probably become a bitter, old wart.

 

But may I ask, what's wrong with the Black Dragons? There's no way you read that book in a few seconds, but I have and from what I could grasp from your post they seem to fit your wish perfectly.

[Kais Klip]

Only what's wrong with it from the opinions of founding fields and a number of other reviewers. I tend to stay away from Space Marine Battle novels (apart from ADB's crack at it). I'll give it a fair shot once my workload slackens up a bit, for now I'll give them a quick wiki/4chan search.

 

I just really, really like underdogs with a never-say-never attitude, "winning against the odds is the only winning that counts" mindset, and the Salamanders as portrayed in the Forgeworld books fit that to a T. But damn it, why do they have to be good guys?

 

It just seems they don't really have a direct counterpart, not so much as a shadow even, without going a few millennia or Foundings either side. They need the same treatment the XIIth and XVIIth received by BL.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Kais Klip

[Brother Dougal]

Well, as long as you do give it that fair shot. I'm no professional critic, but personally I really think it's what you're looking for.

 

That's just my opinion, though. I'm also of the opinion that when it comes to these books you should stay away from critics. They're generally accurate, but judging by my own tastes I've found that they tend to focus a lot on the flaws in a book, going in depth about why those flaws bring the book down, which simultaneously drags my feelings about the whole book and author down.

 

Wanna know my personal experience with it? Death of Antagonis was my... I wanna say Second or Third Warhammer novel ever, right after Legion of the Damned, which I love, and Death of Integrity, which is good but nothing special.

 

How did I find it? I hated it so much I returned it to the book store a week after I bought it. That's right, I got a refund for it. Not because it was a bad book, but because I'm such a noblebright, Love-Can-Bloom believing Extra-Heretic fan that I never wanted to touch that novel's grimdark pages again.

[Kelborn]

You know what?

 

All this talking about the Salamanders got me interested again. ^^

 

Starting with FWs take on them in Massacre and Retribution will be followed by giving Nicks Omnibus another try. Maybe I'll be disappointed, maybe not. Big E knows.

Besides that, I want to create a grim, nihilistic successor chapter for them as well. Damn it. Good thing is that LordThorn's already doing that for the Iron Gauntlet challenge: the Red Drakes. ^^

[HeritorA]

You know what?

 

All this talking about the Salamanders got me interested again. ^^

 

Starting with FWs take on them in Massacre and Retribution will be followed by giving Nicks Omnibus another try. Maybe I'll be disappointed, maybe not. Big E knows.

 

Besides that, I want to create a grim, nihilistic successor chapter for them as well. Damn it. Good thing is that LordThorn's already doing that for the Iron Gauntlet challenge: the Red Drakes. ^^

Tell us how Nicks omnibus will do for you, again   Just curious

[Brother Dougal]

Hah, I guess any publicity really Is good publicity. It's this thread that got me to buy the Rebirth novel right now. Haven't gotten far enough into it yet to have an opinion, but hey, that's one more copy's profit for GW. Or should I say BL? Who do I credit now company-wise for this stuff?

 

Anyway, I'd also buy Sons of the Forge if it weren't so freaking expensive, even as an e-book. You think that's gonna be put in some Salamanders anthology coming up, like the Seventh Serpent is for Shattered Legions?

[R_F_D]

I think Sons of Forge is in a similar category to the Betrayal at Calth duology, outside/alongside of the HH narrative.  Laurie Goulding explained it in such a better way on a post here somewhere but I can't find it.

 

Edit: which in answer to your question means that it may not be in a collected numbered edition.

Edited April 5, 2017 by R_F_D

[Tymell]

Hah, I guess any publicity really Is good publicity. It's this thread that got me to buy the Rebirth novel right now. Haven't gotten far enough into it yet to have an opinion, but hey, that's one more copy's profit for GW. Or should I say BL? Who do I credit now company-wise for this stuff?

 

Anyway, I'd also buy Sons of the Forge if it weren't so freaking expensive, even as an e-book. You think that's gonna be put in some Salamanders anthology coming up, like the Seventh Serpent is for Shattered Legions?

 

I strongly suspect it will be, especially since both Promethean Sun and Scorched Earth are conspicuously absent from any existing collections, those three would make a suitable Salamanders collection ala Corax. And it would be odd to leave just a few things out of the numbered series, when they're collecting everything else into it.

[R_F_D]

 

Hah, I guess any publicity really Is good publicity. It's this thread that got me to buy the Rebirth novel right now. Haven't gotten far enough into it yet to have an opinion, but hey, that's one more copy's profit for GW. Or should I say BL? Who do I credit now company-wise for this stuff?

 

Anyway, I'd also buy Sons of the Forge if it weren't so freaking expensive, even as an e-book. You think that's gonna be put in some Salamanders anthology coming up, like the Seventh Serpent is for Shattered Legions?

 

I strongly suspect it will be, especially since both Promethean Sun and Scorched Earth are conspicuously absent from any existing collections, those three would make a suitable Salamanders collection ala Corax. And it would be odd to leave just a few things out of the numbered series, when they're collecting everything else into it.

 

 

I'd agree with you but I'm sure Laurie made some reference to Sons of Forge as being different from the rest of the series along with Betrayal at Calth.  It could just be an editorial thing though.

[Knight of the Raven]

Starting with FWs take on them in Massacre and Retribution will be followed by giving Nicks Omnibus another try. Maybe I'll be disappointed, maybe not. Big E knows.

 

I don't know whether you'll be disappointed, but I do know this: you'll be drowned under the Salamanders's lexical field of fire, volcanoes, fire, anvils, fire, hammers, and fire.

 

It seems being a slightly less horrible good guy in Warhammer 40,000 comes with theme overdose in the narration, as shown by the Space Wolves ("WOLF ICE WOLF MURDER WOLF PACK WOLF") and more recently the Raven Guard ("SHADOW TALONS RAVENS BIRDS OF PREY DARKNESS").

 

That's one of the three only things I remember from Nick Kyme's trilogy after reading it thrice since it came out, along with the presence of a dark eldar love triangle and chaplain Elysius shutting a succubus' bragging up with a yawn and a "Are you done?"

[bluntblade]

I'm eternally grateful that the White Scars have been rescued from that fate. Even if the general fandom sees Mongols IN SPACE! and nothing more.

 

Also that 30K Wolves show less of the wolf wolf wolf thing.

[Kelborn]

Indeed and I'm gratefull for that (regarding Scars and 30K Wolves).

 

@Knight of the Raven: Probably...most likely... I'll try to keep the great stuff Forgeworld did with them in my mind while reading Kymes omnibus. Hopefully this will helpt me to ignore the fire, volcano, hammertime, BUUUURRRRN!!!! stuff. ^^

Maybe I'll even find a good mix of both depictions for myself.

[HeritorA]

 

Hah, I guess any publicity really Is good publicity. It's this thread that got me to buy the Rebirth novel right now. Haven't gotten far enough into it yet to have an opinion, but hey, that's one more copy's profit for GW. Or should I say BL? Who do I credit now company-wise for this stuff?

 

Anyway, I'd also buy Sons of the Forge if it weren't so freaking expensive, even as an e-book. You think that's gonna be put in some Salamanders anthology coming up, like the Seventh Serpent is for Shattered Legions?

 

I strongly suspect it will be, especially since both Promethean Sun and Scorched Earth are conspicuously absent from any existing collections, those three would make a suitable Salamanders collection ala Corax. And it would be odd to leave just a few things out of the numbered series, when they're collecting everything else into it.

 

 

Have anyone here read 'Sons of the Forge'? I'm curious cause tis even worse than Vulkan Lives and Deathfire

 

 

I'm eternally grateful that the White Scars have been rescued from that fate. Even if the general fandom sees Mongols IN SPACE! and nothing more.

 

Also that 30K Wolves show less of the wolf wolf wolf thing.

Indeed - which actually will never happen. Cheers

[Xisor]

Okay, foremost: I'm not sure if it was intended that way, but it looked a hell of a lot like a racist rant buried under some of that, Kais Klip. "They're all black, why can't they be multi-ethnic, get what's coming to them!?" If it was such a rant, that sort of sentiment can f the f off. If not, it reads as perilously close to one.

 

----

 

In any event, I think you've all covered a huge amount of ground on the whys/why-nots of it all.

 

For those speculating about reading Kyme's work: go right ahead. It might be annoying in the forgehammer anvilflameness, but Nick does some really fun things with characters and world building. Each dragontongs that crops up could be exchanged out for <insert sci fi world building stuff here> and you get the idea. It pulls me out of the story, but it's not inherently awful.

 

Better: sentence to sentence, paragraph to paragraph Kyme isn't a bad writer. He can string a story together. Sometimes an annoying story, but it's usually only the flamehammered quality that inclines me to throw the book away. ("Deathfire" excluded, because after the first few Chapters everything that happened seemed... daft. Not badly written, but missing something between good conception and good writing. Even the lacklustre [bolterporn heavy] "Promethean Sun" has many interesting scenes in it.)

 

To that end: go right ahead. Riddled with caveats, you stand a chance of really enjoying them! The middle book of the 40k trilogy is really quite good!

 

More than all that, if you try to envisage the novels as 40k-ish comic book stuff (albeit in prose), then I think you really get a lot more for your money.

 

----

 

I also had the chance to read "Unforged" at the weekend, the first of Guy's in "Meduson". Now there is a cracking wee story. Not a huge deal happens, and in some respects it's a bit go-nowhere - but blimey if Guy doesn't hunker down on the reflective (even unwitting) poetry of the Salamanders. It's quite enchanting, for such a short story. The more I read of Guy's, the better I find him. (I liked "Death of Integrity", but found it a wee bit too much on the dry side to really love.)

 

Anyway, there we are. I've got "Sons of the Forge" on my shelf too, so I'm keen next weekend to perhaps get a good bit of "Meduson" read and angle towards that.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Xisor

[Augustus]

Got some Wolf teeth to match with your Wolf grey Wolf pelt that goes over your Wolfic armor, young Wolfhammer of the Wolf guard under Wolf Lord Wulfric von Wolfenstein? -- I feel your pain Knight of the Raven

 

I want to like Salamanders but they are just bland. It's not that they are not GrimDark enough for me. It's okay to have something "good" as long as its not "dopey" Maybe as the OP suggested that we see some inner schism between two factions. One arguing for the current humanitarian approach. And another arguing for MORE FIRE

Edited April 10, 2017 by Augustus

[Master Ciaphas]

Hail!

 

Now that I too have jumped on the Horus Heresy bandwagon and started to collect an XVIII Legion army, I will just pipe in as well. I have read most of the published Salamander stories, and have liked most of them. "Promethean Sun" and "Scorched Earth" I found to be cracking stories. "Vulkan Lives" as also rather alright, but "Deathfire" was horrific. As the first few chapters, that book just fell apart in its storytelling...

 

I would like to read the shorts "Unforged" and "Artifacts" and the novella "Sons of the Forge", but as I am assuming that a Vulkan Horus Heresy omnibus will be coming out collecting all the novels and Salamander specific shorts, I am holding off buying any of the short(er) stories.

 

Perhaps with the Primarchs series, we can get a different author than Phil Kelly and thus a fresh take on the Salamanders. And with a different author, I mean not-Kelly and not-Thorpe (the latter has already molested my favorite Legion and Chapter, the Dark Angels, far, far too much!)

 

Faithfully,

Master Ciaphas

[Brother Captain Kezef]

The problem is a lack of human character insight I think.

 

Now my fave books in the series so far are Prospero Burns, First Heretic, Deliverance Lost, Know no Fear, Betrayer and Master of Mankind.

 

Now I'm not saying this to disrespect other authors but there is a reason Abnet and ADB are my fave authors, mainly because they fill their books with minor characters that give an insight to the Astartes.

 

You saw the Wordbearers through the "eyes" of a blind priestess and in Betrayer you saw the World eaters through the eyes of a ship captain. One of my fave characters in Master of Mankind was Baroness Jaya D'Arcus.

 

I think this is the issue with the Sallie books. They are the one of the most humane legions without any human characters to recognise this and allow the reader to see it through human eyes.

[HeritorA]

 

All great points. But the same 'Arthurian' vision is kind of hard to attach to the Salamanders in any way possible. They are 'too' different to the true 'Arthurian vision'. They are more akin to some african cultures of Botswana/Angola/Cameroon etc.

Do you have some sources that present those cultures succinctly? Not from 40k but in terms of actual culture.

The vast majority of Western readers are going to have no exposure to any of those.

 

The Salamanders express themselves through their works, far more than any other legion, except perhaps the Blood Angels.' - true, through the artworks of both are quite different. Salamanders epitomise the stuff of destruction, but the Blood Angels build frescos, galleries, paint pictures and stuff of splendour.

A fresco or a gallery can not be taken with you and carried on your person. It can not act as a personal touchstone when you need to draw upon the emotions they contain. I'm just saying that the Blood Angels reasoning for their artistic pursuits is very different from the Salamanders.

 

AS for the first don't know - I travelled a lot, it's not a wikipedia opinion.

AS for the second - they could take pendants or brisks with them. It;s not only mosaics or frescos. Plus they do splendid weapons too - if they want to. After all they are Renes. Italian masters + vampires  interpreted into the future. And Salamanders are a conglomeration of given above cultures + greek and roman weaponsmiths.

 

 

DC - 'They're never really shown in control of situations. Promethean Sun could have shown that, but it was too heavy on action for it to work well. That, and Artifacts, were the only stories so far that showed them before Isstvan, and both suffer from being short. Promethean Sun in addition to that also suffers from having no chapters whatsoever, so the whole thing read like a chore to me. It lacked structure in my eyes, and as a result things blend together in my memory and I can't feel enthusiastic about it.

Funnily enough, I think that Magnus the Red: Master of Prospero's main scenario would have been brilliant for a Salamanders novel - the logistics, the attempts to save as many people as possible, and the eventual realization that sacrifices have to be made not just by them, but the people they are trying to rescue, could have been a great, nuanced read that highlights the mentality of the Legion.

Hopefully there'll be some of that in Old Earth, trying to protect the people of Terra. But I doubt the momentum of the series at this point allows for it to the degree that'd be necessary'

-

I do agree with some of your points. Indeed Magnus story would have done amazeballs to Salamanders story. But 'Promethean Sun' and 'Artifacts' suffers not because they are short. But because they are horrible written, boring, with stupid and childish narrative and absolutely blank characters.

And I do not understand why do you think that 'Old Earth' would be better - Kyme was consistent in his writing  - from horrible 'Promethean Sun' to absolutely crappy 'Vulkan lives' and to the nightmare with directly stolen movie scenes and plagiat in 'Deathfire'

[Brother Dougal]

Finished Rebirth. Now that I've had my own go-around with Nick, I can admit that of the various BL authors he ranks among the lesser. Still, I wouldn't go to such lengths to bash him as some others have. I won't try to review his novel, as I'm not qualified to, but to me it's personally more about not going into the toxic environment some people have.

 

I've been to the Advanced Tau Tactica forum, where so many people like to complain over how what BL does is a big insult when it comes to their lore, supposedly. Phil Kelly is hated over there too, so much so it almost feels like they're feeding off each other's hatred and using it to fuel their own fires. I don't like that, that frenzy that develops over this. So I try to stay at least neutral about authors I don't care for. Why add to the Fire? (Totally not a bad Salamanders pun)