Why I am not interested in HH Salamanders?

[HeritorA]

Finished Rebirth. Now that I've had my own go-around with Nick, I can admit that of the various BL authors he ranks among the lesser. Still, I wouldn't go to such lengths to bash him as some others have. I won't try to review his novel, as I'm not qualified to, but to me it's personally more about not going into the toxic environment some people have.

 

I've been to the Advanced Tau Tactica forum, where so many people like to complain over how what BL does is a big insult when it comes to their lore, supposedly. Phil Kelly is hated over there too, so much so it almost feels like they're feeding off each other's hatred and using it to fuel their own fires. I don't like that, that frenzy that develops over this. So I try to stay at least neutral about authors I don't care for. Why add to the Fire? (Totally not a bad Salamanders pun)

The reason is - there are a lot of people who didn't even read stuff and critisize it.

Other people before the critic did indeed read it - and they didn't like what they read.

In case of Kyme and Kelly - I read everything from them. And each time I got new novel I was expecting - this time it would be better. it would be an improvement. And guess what - tis the same absolutely blank stories, with wooden characters, stupid and repetitive bolter porn and ideas stolen from the last movies. That's goes for both Kyme and Kelly. Even Gav sometimes fall into that range

[Kelborn]

Being a thread-o-mancer again, I just wanted to drop a question:

 

Which HH era stories including the Salamanders would you recommend?

 

I've read a lot of negative feedback regarding Vulkan Lives, Deathfire and other "main" novels. Seems like there are some decent short stories / novellas. Just curious about them. :)

[R_F_D]

Artifacts seems to have quite a decent reputation, I think.

[Master Ciaphas]

I actually kinda liked "Vulkan Lives", but "Deathfire" was horrible...atrocious, even. "Promethean Sun" and "Scorched Earth" were - IMHO - excellent novellas.

[helterskelter]

Scorched earth was fantastic

[HeritorA]

Being a thread-o-mancer again, I just wanted to drop a question:

 

Which HH era stories including the Salamanders would you recommend?

 

I've read a lot of negative feedback regarding Vulkan Lives, Deathfire and other "main" novels. Seems like there are some decent short stories / novellas. Just curious about them.

Hm, let me think - probably not a one? I can't in all the good feelings recommend anything Salamanders related in Horus Heresy - cause it's bad.

On the other hand I would better pick Forge World HH books - Salamanders where had more character building and life in them, lol.

[Kelborn]

Found "Scorched Earth" and "Promethean Sun" via Amazon.

 

Will give them a try in the near future. Thanks for that. :tu:

 

@Heri: Well, good for me that I got them, hm? I agree with you that they are pretty damn good in fleshing out certain Legions like the Salamanders.

[R_F_D]

Found "Scorched Earth" and "Promethean Sun" via Amazon.

 

Will give them a try in the near future. Thanks for that.

 

 

Know this is about Salamanders but Kyme did a companion piece to Promethean Sun from Ferrus Manus' POV - Feat of Iron, it's in the Primarchs book.

[Praetor of Calth]

The simple answer is; the writing. The Word Bearers are hugely popular amongst the modern fan base largely due to the work of one man. The Salamanders have got very little in the way of writing that actually makes them interesting. 

 

Annoyingly, the ground work for them to be interesting is actually already there, in part due to the great groundwork laid down by Alan Bligh. If we take a  deeper look at the potential angles a writer could take to make them interesting, based on current background, it's honestly bewildering as too why we are stuck with Astartes warriors that think they're humans and just so happen too carry the personal thesaurus of a unknown pyromancer.

 

- Why were the Sallies one of the "Three"? Common sense would indicate it had something to do with the Webway, but that's just my own personal conjecture. 

- If looking like an Angel bothers Sanguinius, how does looking akin to a Daemon affect Vulkan?

- Perhaps more importantly, how does that affect everyone else?

- Could the Legion's appearance be used to re-affirm the Imperial truth? (There are no such things as Daemons, only valiant warriors of The Imperium that resemble them.) 

- Why are the Salamanders allowed to keep their belief in the Promethean Cult? How/does this contradict anything in the Imperial Truth?

- How did Vulkan fit into the Emperor's plans? Was he, and his legion, meant to be the Guardians of the Imperial Webway.

 

I really hope we get too see someone else take a shot at the Salamanders in "The Primarchs" book series. I just can't stomach another 200 pages of fire metaphors. 

[bluntblade]

Do people rate the Sallies of Grey Talon?

[Wargamer]

Personally, I liked the Salamanders when I first learned about them in Codex: Armageddon; an army of plodding footsloggers with a preference for flamers and hammers, as well as a desire to be the only actual good guys in the setting.

 

So why don't I like them now?

 

Because now they're pyroclastic, pyromantic Pyroviles from Dr Who that build guns out of fire that shoots fire that sets fire on fire. Oh, and Vulcan can't fething die apparently.

 

This is just pants-on-head-stupid Flanderisation.

[Jagus Kumkani]

First, I'd like to thank everyone who mentioned the Space Wolves and the Raven Guard in this discussion. Those books are just so wolfey and raveny it's disgusting. Now I'm not saying Salamanders books aren't all fire and thunderhammer porn, because they are.

But I think most people have the wrong idea or opinions of the Salamanders based on Kyme. He's not the best writer I admit myself. His story are mostly together but what he fails at in my opinion is his repeated description of the Salamanders and their compassion in 40k. Yes, we get that the Salamanders are compassionate but he never goes into detail how the Salamanders deal with that kind if ideology in the grim dark, and how that conflicts with their duty as the Emperors servants. How they deal with civilians and the like in tactical situations, and why or why they don't save them, etc. We need to be shown that the Salamanders are just as savage and killy as any other Space Marine Chapter but staying true to their nature.

Some of the characters are just completely unremarkable and unrememerable (Just like Space Wolf stories). But there are some great characters in the stories that just need to be fleshed out a little more, a personal perspective from these characters and the like. I think the problem could be solved with another author.

Like others have said before, I too believe the hate for Kyme and the Salamanders is snowballing from one person to the next, becoming toxic.

The shade being thrown at the Salamanders is a little unwarranted I think. I mean how are the Ultramarines interesting? How are the Space Wolves interesting? The Raven Guard?

[Wargamer]

Ultramarines are designed to not be interesting.

 

Space Wolves are interesting because they're half-feral Space Vikings who use your rulebook as toilet paper... at least they were before someone turned their Chapter into Battersea Dogs Home

 

Raven Guard are interesting because they wear Corvus Armour. ;)

[Jagus Kumkani]

Ultramarines are designed to not be interesting.

 

Space Wolves are interesting because they're half-feral Space Vikings who use your rulebook as toilet paper... at least they were before someone turned their Chapter into Battersea Dogs Home

 

Raven Guard are interesting because they wear Corvus Armour.

 

That is true in regards to the Ultramarines....well in my opinion of course.

Even the Space Wolves aren't interesting to me. Maybe because I don't find Vikings all that interesting still.

The Curse of the Wulfen isn't even appealing in an regard to me.

Maybe its because I haven't read a ton of Space Wolf stories...and recommendations???

[Jagus Kumkani]

The simple answer is; the writing. The Word Bearers are hugely popular amongst the modern fan base largely due to the work of one man. The Salamanders have got very little in the way of writing that actually makes them interesting. 

 

Annoyingly, the ground work for them to be interesting is actually already there, in part due to the great groundwork laid down by Alan Bligh. If we take a  deeper look at the potential angles a writer could take to make them interesting, based on current background, it's honestly bewildering as too why we are stuck with Astartes warriors that think they're humans and just so happen too carry the personal thesaurus of a unknown pyromancer.

 

- Why were the Sallies one of the "Three"? Common sense would indicate it had something to do with the Webway, but that's just my own personal conjecture. 

- If looking like an Angel bothers Sanguinius, how does looking akin to a Daemon affect Vulkan?

- Perhaps more importantly, how does that affect everyone else?

- Could the Legion's appearance be used to re-affirm the Imperial truth? (There are no such things as Daemons, only valiant warriors of The Imperium that resemble them.) 

- Why are the Salamanders allowed to keep their belief in the Promethean Cult? How/does this contradict anything in the Imperial Truth?

- How did Vulkan fit into the Emperor's plans? Was he, and his legion, meant to be the Guardians of the Imperial Webway.

 

I really hope we get too see someone else take a shot at the Salamanders in "The Primarchs" book series. I just can't stomach another 200 pages of fire metaphors. 

I think you've posed some great questions...ones I haven't asked myself. I haven't read all of the Salamanders stories but most of them. What is it you're talking about in regards to the "three" and this business about the Webway???

[bluntblade]

My first 40K book was Battle of the Fang, which made the Wolves much more interesting than I'd expected. Come to think of it, that was where I'd first gained an inkling about the Salamanders.

[Praetor of Calth]

 

The simple answer is; the writing. The Word Bearers are hugely popular amongst the modern fan base largely due to the work of one man. The Salamanders have got very little in the way of writing that actually makes them interesting. 

 

Annoyingly, the ground work for them to be interesting is actually already there, in part due to the great groundwork laid down by Alan Bligh. If we take a  deeper look at the potential angles a writer could take to make them interesting, based on current background, it's honestly bewildering as too why we are stuck with Astartes warriors that think they're humans and just so happen too carry the personal thesaurus of a unknown pyromancer.

 

- Why were the Sallies one of the "Three"? Common sense would indicate it had something to do with the Webway, but that's just my own personal conjecture. 

- If looking like an Angel bothers Sanguinius, how does looking akin to a Daemon affect Vulkan?

- Perhaps more importantly, how does that affect everyone else?

- Could the Legion's appearance be used to re-affirm the Imperial truth? (There are no such things as Daemons, only valiant warriors of The Imperium that resemble them.) 

- Why are the Salamanders allowed to keep their belief in the Promethean Cult? How/does this contradict anything in the Imperial Truth?

- How did Vulkan fit into the Emperor's plans? Was he, and his legion, meant to be the Guardians of the Imperial Webway.

 

I really hope we get too see someone else take a shot at the Salamanders in "The Primarchs" book series. I just can't stomach another 200 pages of fire metaphors. 

I think you've posed some great questions...ones I haven't asked myself. I haven't read all of the Salamanders stories but most of them. What is it you're talking about in regards to the "three" and this business about the Webway???

 

 

The "three", or "trefoil" as it's more accurately referred too, are the Space Marine legions that were veiled from the rest of the Imperium at their creation rather than overtly operating as part of the early  Great Crusade. You can read more about it here;

 

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Salamanders

 

And on the pages of the other two legions that make up the "trefoil." The idea comes from Forge World's HH books.

 

The Webway stuff is mainly conjecture on my, and that of some others, that the purpose of the Salamanders was to guard the "Imperial Webway" once the Great Crusade was won. There isn't any absolute overt proof of it, and I doubt we'll ever get any, but there are little hints dropped here and there which make it a possibility. it's a commonly accepted fan theory that Vulkan will guard the webway gate in the "Imperial Palace" when the Emperor teleports to the Vengeful Spirit. 

 

Some evidence for the idea off the top of my head;

 

-Vulkan's gift. We know the Emperor engineered the Primarch with specific purposes, so it is highly likely that Vulkan's "gift" was granted deliberately. And as such it imlies that the Emperor would need Vulkan for ever.

 

- The only other Primarch we know of that would likely have an indefinite lifespan is that of Magnus. The books have show us that even though Magnus psychical body died, his soul/warp essence lived on in shards which allowed him to take physical form in some respect, making him also effectively immortal. Now we know Magnus's purpose was to sit on the Golden Throne to guide the Astronomican through the Webway.. So if The Emperor needed Magnus for ever to help him with the Webway, and as such engineered him in a way in which he could live forever, that would imply he needed Vulkan forever for a similar purpose. 

 

- There is absolutely no evidence for this whats so ever, but it's always been a personal theory of mine ever since I bought into the "Guardians of the Webway" idea that the Salamanders appearance was deliberate. A way of explaining away Daemon sightings which would contradict the Imperial Truth. 

 

- Eldrad saying Vulkan will be the Guardian of "The Gate" and that he is the only one that could do it. There are only a few famous gates in the HH series worth guarding, and the only one that only he could guard is that of the Webway Gate. Perhaps that was his purpose all along. 

 

 

There's other little bits here and there which I can't recall of the top of my head, but if you put all the little nuggets of information about the Salamanders and the Imperial Webway together you can see how it all fits.

Edited July 30, 2017 by Praetor of Calth

[bluntblade]

There's no indication that Magnus' shattering was a built in feature. The cracks started spreading when he breached the Webway.

[Petitioner's City]

Is no one else troubled that the black primarch is described as looking like a demon. In fact, that plays on racism as old the west, but especially is found in western lit from the middle ages to very much the 20th century - see for example Uni of Glasgow Professor Debra Strickland's essay in Asa Mittman's Ashgate Research Companion to Monsters and the Monstrous, 'Monstrosity and Race in the Later Middle Ages', or her monograph Saracens, Demons and Jews, especially chapter one 'Making Men Known by Sight Classical Theories Monstrous Races Sin' and Chapter 2, 'Demons Darkness Ethiopians'. 

 

So can we avoid that? Or if it is propagated by GW, condemn it.  

Edited July 30, 2017 by Petitioner's City

[DarkChaplain]

No. Because there's literally nothing wrong with having that kind of thing in a fictional universe. These aren't even ethnically "black", they're obsidian-skinned superhumans, no matter if they started out white as toast.

 

I'd really appreciate it if we could avoid making a big deal out of everything just on the rare off chance that somebody, in [current year], may find it offending their sensibilities. The same goes for Slaanesh daemons having titties and Space Marines being all-male, by the way.

[Marshal Loss]

There are legitimate comments and discussion to be made about racial representation (& other similar fields in 40k), but I think it cheapens the Salamanders, and the issues themselves, by reducing a discussion on them and their popularity to their appearance/that of their Primarch, and I don't think this is the place to have that discussion.

 

Anyway, I dislike Salamanders because I don't like Kyme's writing (as others have said), although Promethean Sun was alright. Deathfire pretty much killed what little interest I had in them. They're much cooler in HH: Massacre

Edited July 30, 2017 by Marshal Loss

[Petitioner's City]

I'm not trying to reduce or derail the discussion, I am objecting to one facet which reflects an unfortunate - and very damning part of human history, and which we absolutely need to be aware of.

 

More in spoilers...

 

 

It's a facet that is a powerful part of Salamander lit since Matt Watt's 5th edition codex (but I don't think before, as 3rd edition salamanders were more varied but had more dark-skinned members painted), but it is also basically racist - which is that the primarch's (& his legion's) dark skin is somehow demonic.

 

In the lit and art and even on people's models on salamanders, this varies in depictions from dark black to charcoal but which can be compared to the darkest of skin tones that people actually have, and which they indeed do suffer for - skin tones which due to history and racism prejudice people against people of very dark skin tone. Yes in the lit Vulkan has this skin tone, and he has scary eyes - hence he becomes 'demonic'? What does that say about anyone with close to that skin tone?

 

And yes I am offended, not by the poster I am objecting too - I understand where it comes from. But because I teach this material, and the pernicious impact that the 'black/demon' trope had through history, and continues to do today, and I know my friend who has an 'obsidian' skin tone would be deeply deeply offended herself if I didn't condemn anything along this line.

 

This is all I will say - I won't carry on, and apologies if I offended anyone. And I agree with Marshall Loss we do need a place for this, but B&C isn't often allowed to be that (and thus it is a shame, because 40K doesn't really have a space to have this kind of critical self-reflection - I'd love it if there are any suggestions).

 

Anyway I won't 'reduce' or derail the thread. Just I am saying be more careful, because while we talk about fictions, fiction - including the fictions we create as fans - ultimately reflect us.

 

 

Anyway, on topic, in the Horus Heresy lit, I liked how the drawings in Deathfire depicted the salamanders not as 'obsidian' alterity:

 

 

Image from Deathfire from Battle Bunnies. It was one of the pleasant surprises of that - quite hard-to-read - book.

 

I agree mainly HH Salamander lit is a slog. I hope the Vulkan book will remedy this somehow, with some of the suggestions the poster above put up. And if a demonic heritage must be addressed, I hope it is head on and highly critical (much like Wraight's deconstruction, to an extent, of orientalist and racist themes amongst depictions of the 'barbarian' White Scars).

Edited July 30, 2017 by Petitioner's City

[choppyred]

They have developed deep ebony skins and the irises of their eyes now glow red in the darkness because they developed over many generations the ability to see in the infrared levels of the electromagnetic spectrum to deal with the constant volcanic pollution that blocks out their world's sunlight. 

 

I lifted this from warhammer 40k wiki, I think that it is the "glowing red eyes" that is meant to make them look "daenomic".

[Jagus Kumkani]

I'm not trying to reduce or derail the discussion, I am objecting to one facet which reflects an unfortunate - and very damning part of human history, and which we absolutely need to be aware of.

 

More in spoilers...

 

 

It's a facet that is a powerful part of Salamander lit since Matt Watt's 5th edition codex (but I don't think before, as 3rd edition salamanders were more varied but had more dark-skinned members painted), but it is also basically racist - which is that the primarch's (& his legion's) dark skin is somehow demonic.

 

In the lit and art and even on people's models on salamanders, this varies in depictions from dark black to charcoal but which can be compared to the darkest of skin tones that people actually have, and which they indeed do suffer for - skin tones which due to history and racism prejudice people against people of very dark skin tone. Yes in the lit Vulkan has this skin tone, and he has scary eyes - hence he becomes 'demonic'? What does that say about anyone with close to that skin tone?

 

And yes I am offended, not by the poster I am objecting too - I understand where it comes from. But because I teach this material, and the pernicious impact that the 'black/demon' trope had through history, and continues to do today, and I know my friend who has an 'obsidian' skin tone would be deeply deeply offended herself if I didn't condemn anything along this line.

 

This is all I will say - I won't carry on, and apologies if I offended anyone. And I agree with Marshall Loss we do need a place for this, but B&C isn't often allowed to be that (and thus it is a shame, because 40K doesn't really have a space to have this kind of critical self-reflection - I'd love it if there are any suggestions).

 

Anyway I won't 'reduce' or derail the thread. Just I am saying be more careful, because while we talk about fictions, fiction - including the fictions we create as fans - ultimately reflect us.

 

 

Anyway, on topic, in the Horus Heresy lit, I liked how the drawings in Deathfire depicted the salamanders not as 'obsidian' alterity:

 

 

Image from Deathfire from Battle Bunnies. It was one of the pleasant surprises of that - quite hard-to-read - book.

 

I agree mainly HH Salamander lit is a slog. I hope the Vulkan book will remedy this somehow, with some of the suggestions the poster above put up. And if a demonic heritage must be addressed, I hope it is head on and highly critical (much like Wraight's deconstruction, to an extent, of orientalist and racist themes amongst depictions of the 'barbarian' White Scars).

I myself am a black man, and the Salamanders having dark skin is one of the reasons that I was drawn to them. The Nocturneans are swarthy skinned by nature. I understand what you're saying in regards to the demonic visage the Salamanders have and what that means in our existence and how that kind of ideology has destroyed the collective psyche of an entire people. But, I know there are coal black, blue black skinned people in the world, and I equate that to the Salamanders because it is true that people can in fact be that dark.

 

It's outrageous that dark skin is associated with evil.

But anyways, I too agree we must tread lightly, but at the same time, we must be honest about these elements and honest with ourselves.

All in all, I've never allowed this kind of thing turn me away from the hobby. I love the ebon black skin of the Salamanders.

Edited July 30, 2017 by BreezyLamar

[Felix Antipodes]

The Salamanders, unlike their "Shattered Legions" brothers for some reason, seem to suffer from invisible man syndrome. Exactly why I'm not sure, but I suspect it comes down to a lack of interesting characters - I can't think of any real stand out Sallies in the BL canon - or plot/battle lines within the HH, and even Vulcan himself feels ill defined to me.

 

Also, we continually hear about the Promethean Cult and how it is a major defining trait of the Chapter but I just don't see it myself. If it was shown as some connective force that held them together after the initial loss (and later rejection) of their Primarch it would give them a distinctive shade and explain the central place of the Cult in their lives IMHO.