Why I am not interested in HH Salamanders?

[bluntblade]

The zealot Salamanders in Retribution are by far the coolest I've seen so far.

[Petitioner's City]

 

 

I'm not trying to reduce or derail the discussion, I am objecting to one facet which reflects an unfortunate - and very damning part of human history, and which we absolutely need to be aware of.

 

More in spoilers...

 

 

It's a facet that is a powerful part of Salamander lit since Matt Watt's 5th edition codex (but I don't think before, as 3rd edition salamanders were more varied but had more dark-skinned members painted), but it is also basically racist - which is that the primarch's (& his legion's) dark skin is somehow demonic.

 

In the lit and art and even on people's models on salamanders, this varies in depictions from dark black to charcoal but which can be compared to the darkest of skin tones that people actually have, and which they indeed do suffer for - skin tones which due to history and racism prejudice people against people of very dark skin tone. Yes in the lit Vulkan has this skin tone, and he has scary eyes - hence he becomes 'demonic'? What does that say about anyone with close to that skin tone?

 

And yes I am offended, not by the poster I am objecting too - I understand where it comes from. But because I teach this material, and the pernicious impact that the 'black/demon' trope had through history, and continues to do today, and I know my friend who has an 'obsidian' skin tone would be deeply deeply offended herself if I didn't condemn anything along this line.

 

This is all I will say - I won't carry on, and apologies if I offended anyone. And I agree with Marshall Loss we do need a place for this, but B&C isn't often allowed to be that (and thus it is a shame, because 40K doesn't really have a space to have this kind of critical self-reflection - I'd love it if there are any suggestions).

 

Anyway I won't 'reduce' or derail the thread. Just I am saying be more careful, because while we talk about fictions, fiction - including the fictions we create as fans - ultimately reflect us.

 

 

Anyway, on topic, in the Horus Heresy lit, I liked how the drawings in Deathfire depicted the salamanders not as 'obsidian' alterity:

 

 

Image from Deathfire from Battle Bunnies. It was one of the pleasant surprises of that - quite hard-to-read - book.

 

I agree mainly HH Salamander lit is a slog. I hope the Vulkan book will remedy this somehow, with some of the suggestions the poster above put up. And if a demonic heritage must be addressed, I hope it is head on and highly critical (much like Wraight's deconstruction, to an extent, of orientalist and racist themes amongst depictions of the 'barbarian' White Scars).

I myself am a black man, and the Salamanders having dark skin is one of the reasons that I was drawn to them. The Nocturneans are swarthy skinned by nature. I understand what you're saying in regards to the demonic visage the Salamanders have and what that means in our existence and how that kind of ideology has destroyed the collective psyche of an entire people. But, I know there are coal black, blue black skinned people in the world, and I equate that to the Salamanders because it is true that people can in fact be that dark.

 

It's outrageous that dark skin is associated with evil.

But anyways, I too agree we must tread lightly, but at the same time, we must be honest about these elements and honest with ourselves.

All in all, I've never allowed this kind of thing turn me away from the hobby. I love the ebon black skin of the Salamanders.

Very glad to hear your thoughts on this, thank you for sharing.

[Wargamer]

I think the fact that Salamanders started as normal, but dark skinned people is what really bothers me about their demon form. Doing that to any other Chapter / Legion would have been fine, but doing it to the only black community in 40k? That really comes across as unsettling...

[HeritorA]

Found "Scorched Earth" and "Promethean Sun" via Amazon.

 

Will give them a try in the near future. Thanks for that.

 

@Heri: Well, good for me that I got them, hm? I agree with you that they are pretty damn good in fleshing out certain Legions like the Salamanders.

 

Yeap. The curious point is that Forge World now provides lore and fluff which is MILES better (In my humble opinion) than the stuff BL provide for the Horus Heresy.

 

There's no indication that Magnus' shattering was a built in feature. The cracks started spreading when he breached the Webway.

 

There were. A lot. It all was planned and done after the Thousand Sons novel. French was asked to create a 'background' for the shattering - which he did in his Ahriman serie. So authors in HH would have a background to strive for etc.

 

'The Salamanders, unlike their "Shattered Legions" brothers for some reason, seem to suffer from invisible man syndrome. Exactly why I'm not sure, but I suspect it comes down to a lack of interesting characters - I can't think of any real stand out Sallies in the BL canon - or plot/battle lines within the HH, and even Vulcan himself feels ill defined to me.'

 

- exactly. Due to the absolutely passable characters fluff/prose authors try to fill the gap with what they can.

[Xisor]

Going in slightly less of a useful direction, there's a common trope quite outside of academic discourse that is arguably problematic where the Salamanders' treatment is concerned. I *think* it's avoided, mainly because so much of 40k is inherently caricatured, that the motifs, symbolism, names, and even the simple themes (the tropes, if you will) aren't really too fundamental to the definition of the chapter and its portrayal.

 

That is:

- liking fire

- a bit calmly superstitious (which juxtaposed to fire-weidling zealots, monstrous gods, and ruinous daemons is a rational and fiercely intellectual positive quality, I'd contend, and somewhat critical in subverting the trope)

- humane and, almost, humanist. Even with the worst of them individually, there's a serious effort at being (even if only) institutionally decent (for the setting).

- technically savvy

- not in it for the glory

 

Compared to fay vampires, norse caricatures, hidebound busybodies, creepy monks, and frothing religious maniacs - the Salamanders come across pretty sensibly. I can easily see why they drew everyone in - it's how they hooked me too!

 

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The trope itself obviously comes from a place of vague good-intention - to be inclusive, and also to include in a sensible and credible light. Of course, given that it's often the only inclusion, and that it's repeatedly the case, and that it's often at the expense of giving the character a proper depth... well, you get the idea.

 

In the context of Vulkan and the Salamanders, I think the Horus Heresy has fallen victim to this rendition, but mainly by virtue of skirting round it and not exactly dealing with it. Vulkan isn't really there to enrich anyone's life - he's being put through the grinder to the same extent that Miles O'Brien would once a season in DS9. Vulkan's ostensibly more mystical, but practically this is given neatly by Kyme as being more philosophical, more pragmatic, and more open to non-horrendous methods. There's no great folksy-spiritualism that's demeaning, insensitive or massively doing a disservice to any number of cultures... but mainly because it's been replaced with the fire culture of the flame people.

 

Similarly, though Vulkan's somewhat the odd-one-out, Black Library (and it only really surfaced when Kyme unearthed it in discussions preceding Salamander) have deftly avoided a lot of the issues of portrayal of race - principally by going more fantastic. He's not a proxy or stand-in for diversity, he's not (to my naive eyes) tokenistic - he's just Vulkan. With quite an extensive (if ostensible) life way beyond who he is and what he does.

 

Indeed, the Salamanders' functional legacy that they received from Vulkan isn't his skin tone (that's implied to be Nocturne and Vulkan's legacy), nor his love of fire (Vulkan didn't seem too fussed - he liked hammers though...), but his philosophy. I think that's pretty credible.

 

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My point, for all that it is - is that I do have concerns about Vulkan's position and treatment in that wider real-world context, but I think it's actually been handled pretty well.

 

Now, that said, I think there's still a lot of reasons why there's not been a runaway resounding success with the Salamanders (in contrast to the White Scars, and god-knows, that's a surprise given the 1970s racist horror in A Thousand Sons), I think it's also really heartening to know that it's actually pretty steady too.

 

For example, I love Jim Swallow and Gav Thorpe's work, for instance, but I can't say that Angels of Caliban or Fear To Tread were much to write home about. Hell, I though Deliverance Lost was a cracking novel - but it's a difficult one to recommend to any old person.

 

By contrast, with fiction like Artefacts and Scorched Earth I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to people. As such, I'm actually quite keen to get back to the Horus Heresy and crack on with Sons of the Forge in preparation for Old Earth. "Deathfire" was a dud, but nothing like the dud (for me) of "Vengeful Spirit", for example.

 

No great disservice intended to any of them - it's horses for courses, of course.

 

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Incidentally, I'd strongly recommend Peter Fehervari's "Walker in Fire" - one of the Deathwatch Ignition anthology shorts. (Indeed, the whole anthology was surprisingly pleasant.) Fehervari's a cracking writer, and I'd go as far as to say that WiF is my favourite Salamanders story. (Which given I really liked the ones that Guy Hayley wrote in Meduson- well. Fehervari did very well.) It's not HH, of course, but still well worth a look!

[HeritorA]

I'm actually quite keen to get back to the Horus Heresy and crack on with Sons of the Forge - curious why do you like Sons of the Forge?

Cause it's the plainniest bolter porn of the worst kind