Skills difference for BA in Shadow Wars: Armageddon?

[Guest]

Wow...Space Wolves actually get Combat, Ferocity, Shooting AND Stealth as primary skill sets? Additionally to having access to proper special weapons on their specialist? Yeah no, I'm pretty sure now that a Space Wolves Scout kill team will be the strongest Space Marine Scout kill team (the Stealth skill set is pretty awesome imo).

 

Another funny thing. There are some Chapter where their specialists have a different skill set available than the trooper (Salamanders, Blood Angels, Sons of Guilliman). Normally the skill set spread looks like the one for White Scars and Angels of Redemption. ^^

 

 

Not to start a fight but SW scouts are actually the elders of the SW's, unlike the rest of SM's where scouts are the juniors. Are scouts count as elite choices and not as troop choices too.  Lore wise they are supposed to be just as strong but now their tempers are cooled (why the wulfen don't affect them like Blood Claws) and are more reliable about shooting weapons. They are also the trackers/hunters of the packs used to find the enemy.

 

So having combat/ferocity/shooting/scout along with proper specialty weapons makes sense in a lore aspect, not sure about balance. They do sort of balance it by saying we can't have novitiate scouts, increasing the price per SW scout but again doesn't seem quite balanced. As much as I like lore to reflect slightly on the tabletop, it isn't implemented with blanket rules like these and require specialist rules.

 

Edit: I was going to say its odd we have shooting but not agile (since SW are written as sprinting into combat, dodging sword swings, and leaping into combat), but remembered these are for our elder scouts and not they young Blood Claws and Grey Hunters so nvm. If we had Blood Claws/Grey Hunters I would replace shooting with agile...

[Panzer]

 

Wow...Space Wolves actually get Combat, Ferocity, Shooting AND Stealth as primary skill sets? Additionally to having access to proper special weapons on their specialist? Yeah no, I'm pretty sure now that a Space Wolves Scout kill team will be the strongest Space Marine Scout kill team (the Stealth skill set is pretty awesome imo).

 

Another funny thing. There are some Chapter where their specialists have a different skill set available than the trooper (Salamanders, Blood Angels, Sons of Guilliman). Normally the skill set spread looks like the one for White Scars and Angels of Redemption. ^^

 

 

Not to start a fight but SW scouts are actually the elders of the SW's, unlike the rest of SM's where scouts are the juniors. Are scouts count as elite choices and not as troop choices too.  Lore wise they are supposed to be just as strong but now their tempers are cooled (why the wulfen don't affect them like Blood Claws) and are more reliable about shooting weapons. They are also the trackers/hunters of the packs used to find the enemy.

 

So having combat/ferocity/shooting/scout along with proper specialty weapons makes sense in a lore aspect, not sure about balance. They do sort of balance it by saying we can't have novitiate scouts, increasing the price per SW scout but again doesn't seem quite balanced. As much as I like lore to reflect slightly on the tabletop, it isn't implemented with blanket rules like these and require specialist rules.

 

I know that much. ;)

It's more about having a 4th primary skill tree compared to everyone else (not just SM) that was so surprising. I also don't think not being able to take New Recruits is that much of a set back to be honest.

[Guest]

Wow...Space Wolves actually get Combat, Ferocity, Shooting AND Stealth as primary skill sets? Additionally to having access to proper special weapons on their specialist? Yeah no, I'm pretty sure now that a Space Wolves Scout kill team will be the strongest Space Marine Scout kill team (the Stealth skill set is pretty awesome imo).

Another funny thing. There are some Chapter where their specialists have a different skill set available than the trooper (Salamanders, Blood Angels, Sons of Guilliman). Normally the skill set spread looks like the one for White Scars and Angels of Redemption. ^^

Not to start a fight but SW scouts are actually the elders of the SW's, unlike the rest of SM's where scouts are the juniors. Are scouts count as elite choices and not as troop choices too. Lore wise they are supposed to be just as strong but now their tempers are cooled (why the wulfen don't affect them like Blood Claws) and are more reliable about shooting weapons. They are also the trackers/hunters of the packs used to find the enemy.

So having combat/ferocity/shooting/scout along with proper specialty weapons makes sense in a lore aspect, not sure about balance. They do sort of balance it by saying we can't have novitiate scouts, increasing the price per SW scout but again doesn't seem quite balanced. As much as I like lore to reflect slightly on the tabletop, it isn't implemented with blanket rules like these and require specialist rules.

I know that much.

It's more about having a 4th primary skill tree compared to everyone else (not just SM) that was so surprising. I also don't think not being able to take New Recruits is that much of a set back to be honest.

Agreed, I think that they should have been declined new recruits AND cost 10 extra points or something to equal out the 4th primary skill tree. It makes sense as it makes it fewer scouts and more experience scouts and complies with the lore closely.

[Xenith]

Number of skill trees one can take from =/= number of skills one can take. 

 

A veteran non-SW scout will still be better than a non veteran SW scout. 

 

The SW warband allows for more tailoring, sure, reflecting their relative veterancy. Other warbands will have other idea set ups I'm sure, you have to play to the strength of the chapter...in the same way as 40k...

[Panzer]

Number of skill trees one can take from =/= number of skills one can take. 

 

A veteran non-SW scout will still be better than a non veteran SW scout. 

 

The SW warband allows for more tailoring, sure, reflecting their relative veterancy. Other warbands will have other idea set ups I'm sure, you have to play to the strength of the chapter...in the same way as 40k...

It also allows for more potentially strong combinations. It's not about how many skills you can take but rather about what skills you can combine on a model.

[Guest]

 

Number of skill trees one can take from =/= number of skills one can take. 

 

A veteran non-SW scout will still be better than a non veteran SW scout. 

 

The SW warband allows for more tailoring, sure, reflecting their relative veterancy. Other warbands will have other idea set ups I'm sure, you have to play to the strength of the chapter...in the same way as 40k...

It also allows for more potentially strong combinations. It's not about how many skills you can take but rather about what skills you can combine on a model.

 

 

This exactly, the freedom of choice can be a huge advantage and flexibility on countering different races/armies.  I like the idea SW Scouts being honored as extremly adaptable and different than other scouts but I feel like they also should have a penalty in fairness.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Not to get off track, but back in 3rd Edition the Blood Angels Scouts were also veterans, taken from the most "fiery individuals in the chapter" - rather than neophytes, which is why they were a little better in close combat than most other scouts in the game during that edition.

[Indefragable]

 

EDIT : stuff 

 

This exactly, the freedom of choice can be a huge advantage and flexibility on countering different races/armies.  I like the idea SW Scouts being honored as extremly adaptable and different than other scouts but I feel like they also should have a penalty in fairness.

 

 

 

Not to get off track, but back in 3rd Edition the Blood Angels Scouts were also veterans, taken from the most "fiery individuals in the chapter" - rather than neophytes, which is why they were a little better in close combat than most other scouts in the game during that edition.

 

See, I find this fact about 3rd edition VERY interesting. It already seems like there's a bit too much commonality (besides the whole Astartes thing) between SW and BA to begin with:

 

• They are/were at one point THE assault Chapter
• They have/have had crazed berzerker troops they try to hide from the rest of the Imperium (Wulfen/Death Company)
• They have/have had unique flyers (Stormwolf thingies/Stormravens....back when they were BA/GK only)
• They have/have had Scouts who were the trusted veterans rather than the wet-behind-the-ears novitiates
• They have/have had Fast transport vehicles (BA Rhinos; SW's have that Formation that lets them move 12" AND disembark)

 

This is not to knock on SW in any way, but I am totally knocking on the designers. It seems whatever BA get/can do, SW have to be able to do better. Even many of the SW formations give Furious Charge, which means that SW are literally BA+. Pretty much the only thing BA get to stand apart are unique pistols.........oh woops, forgot about Hellfrost!

 

In fairness, some of this is due to publication lag and it will (hopefully?) be a moot gripe by the time 8th rolls around and resets everything in a perfectly balanced manner [do you hear me, dice gods?}

 

 

My own mental wanderings:

Hidden Content

I always liked to think that SW generally had an edge over most other SM in CQC, with their ferociousness carrying the day whenver their skill ever didn't. Except for the Blood Angels. Pound-for-pound the BA were the one loyalist Chapter that would beat the SM in melee (painting in very broad strokes here). And as a result the SW adapted to hit+run style guerilla shooty tactics. The idea being that Russ/SW made sure to have a strategy on hand for dealing with each of the other 17 Legions. Most of the time that was "Run at them yelling and hit them with your axe."

 

But in the cases of the IX and XII, it was different. The World Eaters were to be surrounded, cut off, and reduced to small groups that could be picked off. Relatively evenly matched in melee prowess, the SW would rely on better tactical acumen to win the day.  

 

I like to think that Russ had trouble with his contingency plans for Sanguinius. Whereas Angron and the XII were devastating, they were at least predictable and the generally superior small-unit leadership skills of the VI could be relied on to carry the day (kinda sorta like the anecdote from Betrayer). Facing Horus would be a chess match, and one where the more daring and bold side would most likely win. Most of the others could be outdone with some form of aggression or wearing them down. 

 

But the IX....the IX presented a challenge to Russ. They were perhaps the only force besides the XII that pound-for-pound would generally win in melee. That immediately removed the usual tactics he would employ against other Legions. Likewise, they were particularly fast and mobile, which presented the same problems his plans for the III and XIX faced. Yet where those Legions could be trapped and eliminated with devastating assaults, the BA could punch back. And third, the BA maintained the martial discipline and tactical acumen found among the more "proper" Legions, such as the VII, X, or XIII. Thus they were indeed distinct from the World Eaters and a distinct approach was needed. 

 

Russ stroked the stubble on his chin. His eyes were locked on the Order of Battle for the IX Legion, but he barely saw them as his mind wandered. How did one kill an angel? 

 

 

 

Veering dangerously into fanboyism? 

[Xenith]

This is not to knock on SW in any way, but I am totally knocking on the designers. It seems whatever BA get/can do, SW have to be able to do better.

Heh, it's been this way since the year 2000. They had the original counter attack and true grit rules, so the basic wolf essentially had 2A base.

 

At least in 3rd BA could edge them out with 26" charges from rhinos, but since 4th they've been solidly more powerful.

[Indefragable]

 

This is not to knock on SW in any way, but I am totally knocking on the designers. It seems whatever BA get/can do, SW have to be able to do better.

Heh, it's been this way since the year 2000. They had the original counter attack and true grit rules, so the basic wolf essentially had 2A base.

 

At least in 3rd BA could edge them out with 26" charges from rhinos, but since 4th they've been solidly more powerful.

 

 

In all fairness, I think Wulfen were technically present in the fluff of 1e? But then the (totally rad and too-cool) Angels of Death BA/DA 2e Codex dropped with Death Company, so DC were "officially" first? 

[Arkangilos]

Never mind! Found it :)

[Panzer]

I honestly think it's hard to be any better than Space Wolves in pure melee when it comes to Space Marines thanks to TWC even without Wulfen.

 

Let them be the melee guys. We can be the ones who are very close to them in terms of melee but combine it with other stuff. Not everyone can be the best after all. So what can we do to be awesome as heck without being better in melee? I think assault out of deep strike and fast tanks is a good start. Now we just need to build upon that and I hope 8th edition will do us some good there.

 

But this is a bit offtopic and borders on wishlisting so I won't continue on that thought. :P

[Guest]

 

 

EDIT : stuff 

 

This exactly, the freedom of choice can be a huge advantage and flexibility on countering different races/armies.  I like the idea SW Scouts being honored as extremly adaptable and different than other scouts but I feel like they also should have a penalty in fairness.

 

 

 

Not to get off track, but back in 3rd Edition the Blood Angels Scouts were also veterans, taken from the most "fiery individuals in the chapter" - rather than neophytes, which is why they were a little better in close combat than most other scouts in the game during that edition.

 

See, I find this fact about 3rd edition VERY interesting. It already seems like there's a bit too much commonality (besides the whole Astartes thing) between SW and BA to begin with:

 

• They are/were at one point THE assault Chapter
• They have/have had crazed berzerker troops they try to hide from the rest of the Imperium (Wulfen/Death Company)
• They have/have had unique flyers (Stormwolf thingies/Stormravens....back when they were BA/GK only)
• They have/have had Scouts who were the trusted veterans rather than the wet-behind-the-ears novitiates
• They have/have had Fast transport vehicles (BA Rhinos; SW's have that Formation that lets them move 12" AND disembark)

 

This is not to knock on SW in any way, but I am totally knocking on the designers. It seems whatever BA get/can do, SW have to be able to do better. Even many of the SW formations give Furious Charge, which means that SW are literally BA+. Pretty much the only thing BA get to stand apart are unique pistols.........oh woops, forgot about Hellfrost!

 

In fairness, some of this is due to publication lag and it will (hopefully?) be a moot gripe by the time 8th rolls around and resets everything in a perfectly balanced manner [do you hear me, dice gods?}

 

 

My own mental wanderings:

Hidden Content

I always liked to think that SW generally had an edge over most other SM in CQC, with their ferociousness carrying the day whenver their skill ever didn't. Except for the Blood Angels. Pound-for-pound the BA were the one loyalist Chapter that would beat the SM in melee (painting in very broad strokes here). And as a result the SW adapted to hit+run style guerilla shooty tactics. The idea being that Russ/SW made sure to have a strategy on hand for dealing with each of the other 17 Legions. Most of the time that was "Run at them yelling and hit them with your axe."

 

But in the cases of the IX and XII, it was different. The World Eaters were to be surrounded, cut off, and reduced to small groups that could be picked off. Relatively evenly matched in melee prowess, the SW would rely on better tactical acumen to win the day.  

 

I like to think that Russ had trouble with his contingency plans for Sanguinius. Whereas Angron and the XII were devastating, they were at least predictable and the generally superior small-unit leadership skills of the VI could be relied on to carry the day (kinda sorta like the anecdote from Betrayer). Facing Horus would be a chess match, and one where the more daring and bold side would most likely win. Most of the others could be outdone with some form of aggression or wearing them down. 

 

But the IX....the IX presented a challenge to Russ. They were perhaps the only force besides the XII that pound-for-pound would generally win in melee. That immediately removed the usual tactics he would employ against other Legions. Likewise, they were particularly fast and mobile, which presented the same problems his plans for the III and XIX faced. Yet where those Legions could be trapped and eliminated with devastating assaults, the BA could punch back. And third, the BA maintained the martial discipline and tactical acumen found among the more "proper" Legions, such as the VII, X, or XIII. Thus they were indeed distinct from the World Eaters and a distinct approach was needed. 

 

Russ stroked the stubble on his chin. His eyes were locked on the Order of Battle for the IX Legion, but he barely saw them as his mind wandered. How did one kill an angel? 

 

 

 

Veering dangerously into fanboyism? 

 

 

 

Here is my perspective from what I read in the lore, and this maybe should be a whole new topic. We can either decide to do that or see if a mod interfers.

 

SW's were adopting different tactics from the legions and then adapting them into their own style. This continues today even with Sven Bloodhowl adopting the BA/RG/WS tactics of jump troops/bikes, Ragnars tactics remind of UM drop pods, Ironwolves are IH, etc etc.

 

At the heart of SW tactics is not up front assault like the BA, but rather that of a hunter-predator. Like Leman Russ had a knack of finding weakness in an enemy the SW's too gained their father unnatural instinct for these things. They scout forth finding the enemy and lay waiting for the opportune time to attack, outflanking and striking at their foe's weak points allowing them to freely cater the battle to their favor. This is the tactics favored by Harald Deathwolf. This also reminds me of more of the viking/germanic ways of ambushing against weaker/weakened targets.

 

So no, we shouldn't be the same. Yes we share many common similiarities (vampire/werewolf scheme), but at the heart you own the skies, we own the ground. We merely rent each other spaces. This just seems to be hard to implement with the current rules. How do you have a rapid assault army that doesn't/not known to have cavalry/vehicles/jump packs. You can't, so they gave us jump packs and cavalry but those aren't ours traditionally. Maybe with movement rules in 8th, SWs will move 9in while others move 6in or maybe double runs. Point is, the BA should own the skies and roam as free as eagles while we SW run among the wolves. Though wolves may dream of flying and eagles may dream of running.

 

 

As for the BA vs SW, they are different tactics. Pound for pound both are on par both as violent as the other. Though I may have to give a hand to SW, not because we are better but rather because we are not as honor-bound. SW and BA cherish a fair fight 1v1, but in mass combat SW's will throw a little dirt to get the upper-hand while BA may not. We have different views, is it better to lose the war and watch your brothers die or do you fight dirty and win the war and save your brothers. Saga's are not told about what victors dirty deeds, only their golden moments.

 

To counter that we are not the World Eaters that fight like madmen at any cost and with no tactics. We still use OUR tactics, OUR ways, OUR style. We see no fame in throwing away your life needlessly and wrecklessly like our Blood Claws often do. Our priests temper our Blood Claws into find Grey Hunters and that is the true sign of a warrior.

 

 

Finally the comment on "How do you kill an angel?", how do you counter something that flies high above and sees all while you sit on the ground and are seen? Dirty tricks will not work they shall see you, you can not touch them they soar above. "How do you kill a pack of wolves?" You shoot they shall hide in the trees and caves, you land they shall overwhelm and tear at your flesh. SW are not superior to BA's, we are equals and lords of our own domains and in our own rights. Equals but different.

[Panzer]

You know, that all sounds pretty cool and everything, Caldersson. But that isn't how things work unfortunately. BA neither have fancy flyer nor can we claim that we have Jump Infantry that is superior to everyone elses. Besides the fact that Jump Infantry is generally inferior to Bikes and TWC (and now Wulfen) normally with the current rules.

Anyway, i think it's wrong to think of BA as "the Jump Pack chapter". That's not what BA are. Using Tacticals and Assault Squads in Drop Pods with Flamer and Melta is just as much BA as Deathcompany and Sanguinary Guard are. If anything, Raven Guard are more of a Jump Pack chapter than BA. Sure we have the option to take Jump Packs on almost every infantry but we don't use them in any special way. Our Jump Pack Assault Marines and Vanguard Veterans are the same as any other Jump Pack Assault Marines and Vanguard Veterans other Chapters field.

[Xenith]

Yes, it all works fine in fluff, but crunch is very, very different.

 

BA's defining feature was supposed to be Furious charge, jump packs, Furioso's and the Death co.

 

Now Wolves get FC, Wulfen are better than Death co, RG are better at jump packs, I think sky claws still get rage as standard, right? Codex marines get twin CCW dreads, BA get their special character dread back, but SW get a second one. BA gets their unique flyer taken away, Codex gains the raven, then 2 additional unique flyers, DA gain 2 unique, SW gain 2 unique. SW tactical equivalents are better than codex, assaults are better, dev's are better.

 

I guess you do have to deal with the Logan Sled, though.

 

Anyway, on topic. I think ferocity represents BA well. We don't need all those extra skills. I think an optimal kill team will have a decent amount of shooting, but will this go against our skills? Pistols have great bonuses at close range - extended scope + red dot pistol anyone?

[Panzer]

Honestly I really blame whoever wrote our current codex. Not even the ones who wrote the SW or C:SM codices who added all the nice stuff we were supposed to have only. Our current codex is just incredibly bland. I'm sure if our codex would've been written after the Eldar and Necron one, it would have much more interesting and stronger stuff in it.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

You know, that all sounds pretty cool and everything, Caldersson. But that isn't how things work unfortunately. BA neither have fancy flyer nor can we claim that we have Jump Infantry that is superior to everyone elses. Besides the fact that Jump Infantry is generally inferior to Bikes and TWC (and now Wulfen) normally with the current rules.

Anyway, i think it's wrong to think of BA as "the Jump Pack chapter". That's not what BA are. Using Tacticals and Assault Squads in Drop Pods with Flamer and Melta is just as much BA as Deathcompany and Sanguinary Guard are. If anything, Raven Guard are more of a Jump Pack chapter than BA. Sure we have the option to take Jump Packs on almost every infantry but we don't use them in any special way. Our Jump Pack Assault Marines and Vanguard Veterans are the same as any other Jump Pack Assault Marines and Vanguard Veterans other Chapters field.

 

I dunno... Raven Guard were just a side note when we [bA] were the "jump pack chapter" for a long time. Yes they both utilize jump packs now and RG does it well, but so do we. The 'current rules' are not necessarily a reflection of the who or what the Blood Angels are. Yes right now (though 8th is coming soon!) bikes and cav are far superior to jump assault troops.

 

In the 2nd edition AoD codex we had jump packs everywhere when it wasn't common in codex of the day.

 

We the fans have this desire to want to see our little gems as entirely unique (I get it)... but EVERY space marine uses a bolter, why can't two chapters be experts with Jump Packs, or two chapters be close-combat experts?

[Indefragable]

Great response, Caldersson. hiding quotes and my response to save eyeballs/keep things on thread for those that want to stay focused.

 

Hidden Content

 

 

 

EDIT : stuff 

 

This exactly, the freedom of choice can be a huge advantage and flexibility on countering different races/armies.  I like the idea SW Scouts being honored as extremly adaptable and different than other scouts but I feel like they also should have a penalty in fairness.

 

 

 

Not to get off track, but back in 3rd Edition the Blood Angels Scouts were also veterans, taken from the most "fiery individuals in the chapter" - rather than neophytes, which is why they were a little better in close combat than most other scouts in the game during that edition.

 

See, I find this fact about 3rd edition VERY interesting. It already seems like there's a bit too much commonality (besides the whole Astartes thing) between SW and BA to begin with:

 

• They are/were at one point THE assault Chapter
• They have/have had crazed berzerker troops they try to hide from the rest of the Imperium (Wulfen/Death Company)
• They have/have had unique flyers (Stormwolf thingies/Stormravens....back when they were BA/GK only)
• They have/have had Scouts who were the trusted veterans rather than the wet-behind-the-ears novitiates
• They have/have had Fast transport vehicles (BA Rhinos; SW's have that Formation that lets them move 12" AND disembark)

 

This is not to knock on SW in any way, but I am totally knocking on the designers. It seems whatever BA get/can do, SW have to be able to do better. Even many of the SW formations give Furious Charge, which means that SW are literally BA+. Pretty much the only thing BA get to stand apart are unique pistols.........oh woops, forgot about Hellfrost!

 

In fairness, some of this is due to publication lag and it will (hopefully?) be a moot gripe by the time 8th rolls around and resets everything in a perfectly balanced manner [do you hear me, dice gods?}

 

 

My own mental wanderings:

Hidden Content

I always liked to think that SW generally had an edge over most other SM in CQC, with their ferociousness carrying the day whenver their skill ever didn't. Except for the Blood Angels. Pound-for-pound the BA were the one loyalist Chapter that would beat the SM in melee (painting in very broad strokes here). And as a result the SW adapted to hit+run style guerilla shooty tactics. The idea being that Russ/SW made sure to have a strategy on hand for dealing with each of the other 17 Legions. Most of the time that was "Run at them yelling and hit them with your axe."

 

But in the cases of the IX and XII, it was different. The World Eaters were to be surrounded, cut off, and reduced to small groups that could be picked off. Relatively evenly matched in melee prowess, the SW would rely on better tactical acumen to win the day.  

 

I like to think that Russ had trouble with his contingency plans for Sanguinius. Whereas Angron and the XII were devastating, they were at least predictable and the generally superior small-unit leadership skills of the VI could be relied on to carry the day (kinda sorta like the anecdote from Betrayer). Facing Horus would be a chess match, and one where the more daring and bold side would most likely win. Most of the others could be outdone with some form of aggression or wearing them down. 

 

But the IX....the IX presented a challenge to Russ. They were perhaps the only force besides the XII that pound-for-pound would generally win in melee. That immediately removed the usual tactics he would employ against other Legions. Likewise, they were particularly fast and mobile, which presented the same problems his plans for the III and XIX faced. Yet where those Legions could be trapped and eliminated with devastating assaults, the BA could punch back. And third, the BA maintained the martial discipline and tactical acumen found among the more "proper" Legions, such as the VII, X, or XIII. Thus they were indeed distinct from the World Eaters and a distinct approach was needed. 

 

Russ stroked the stubble on his chin. His eyes were locked on the Order of Battle for the IX Legion, but he barely saw them as his mind wandered. How did one kill an angel? 

 

 

 

Veering dangerously into fanboyism? 

 

 

 

Here is my perspective from what I read in the lore, and this maybe should be a whole new topic. We can either decide to do that or see if a mod interfers.

 

SW's were adopting different tactics from the legions and then adapting them into their own style. This continues today even with Sven Bloodhowl adopting the BA/RG/WS tactics of jump troops/bikes, Ragnars tactics remind of UM drop pods, Ironwolves are IH, etc etc.

 

At the heart of SW tactics is not up front assault like the BA, but rather that of a hunter-predator. Like Leman Russ had a knack of finding weakness in an enemy the SW's too gained their father unnatural instinct for these things. They scout forth finding the enemy and lay waiting for the opportune time to attack, outflanking and striking at their foe's weak points allowing them to freely cater the battle to their favor. This is the tactics favored by Harald Deathwolf. This also reminds me of more of the viking/germanic ways of ambushing against weaker/weakened targets.

 

So no, we shouldn't be the same. Yes we share many common similiarities (vampire/werewolf scheme), but at the heart you own the skies, we own the ground. We merely rent each other spaces. This just seems to be hard to implement with the current rules. How do you have a rapid assault army that doesn't/not known to have cavalry/vehicles/jump packs. You can't, so they gave us jump packs and cavalry but those aren't ours traditionally. Maybe with movement rules in 8th, SWs will move 9in while others move 6in or maybe double runs. Point is, the BA should own the skies and roam as free as eagles while we SW run among the wolves. Though wolves may dream of flying and eagles may dream of running.

 

 

As for the BA vs SW, they are different tactics. Pound for pound both are on par both as violent as the other. Though I may have to give a hand to SW, not because we are better but rather because we are not as honor-bound. SW and BA cherish a fair fight 1v1, but in mass combat SW's will throw a little dirt to get the upper-hand while BA may not. We have different views, is it better to lose the war and watch your brothers die or do you fight dirty and win the war and save your brothers. Saga's are not told about what victors dirty deeds, only their golden moments.

 

To counter that we are not the World Eaters that fight like madmen at any cost and with no tactics. We still use OUR tactics, OUR ways, OUR style. We see no fame in throwing away your life needlessly and wrecklessly like our Blood Claws often do. Our priests temper our Blood Claws into find Grey Hunters and that is the true sign of a warrior.

 

 

Finally the comment on "How do you kill an angel?", how do you counter something that flies high above and sees all while you sit on the ground and are seen? Dirty tricks will not work they shall see you, you can not touch them they soar above. "How do you kill a pack of wolves?" You shoot they shall hide in the trees and caves, you land they shall overwhelm and tear at your flesh. SW are not superior to BA's, we are equals and lords of our own domains and in our own rights. Equals but different.

 

 

 

My reply:

Hidden Content

Yea I think SW are cool. And their "thing" is kind of the anti-Astartes Astartes, which is cool in its own way. I never want to knock on that. And, to a certain degree with a certain type of logic, the SW "should" be "better" in some ways....again, the whole anti-Astartes Astartes thing. But where it gets irksome is when they apparently have to be "better" in all ways:

 

5 heavy weapons in a Devastator squad (Long Fangs) so they are shootier than shootier marines

all the various things we mentioned about melee 

all the various things about flyers 

etc....

 

And of course SW will have their own means of mobility and melee prowess....there's nothing wrong with that. It just seems like the designers get lazy and take whatever cool toys BA have and literally 1-up them with SW versions. 

 

To me, the Grey Hunters are a brilliant depiction of what the SW "should" be (I know SW players grumble about actual game performance): highly customizable and able to be adapted to nearly any foe. Most importantly, they are different from Tactical Marines, even though they are, for all intents and purposes, Tactical marines. They look different, play different, and can have different wargear and tactics. The BA, in contrast, are a bit more "in line" with other SM....except they are "better" at certain things, including melee and mobility. So SW "tacticals" "should" be able to take down BA Tacticals rather easily since they can take the exact wargear to do so. However, BA Tacticals "should" outfight any other Chapter (except maybe World Eaters) in a straight up boxing match...and have the tools to be able to position themselves for that. Where I roll my eyes is where it seems like SW are supposed to be "better" than BA at even that. It's a game: everything should have +/-. 

 

 

And to your point, Gunzhard, there's absolutely no reason multiple Factions can't be good at the same things. Raven Guard, Night Lords, and Blood Angels are all "the jump pack Chapters" in their own way, so yes they all "should" have buffs to those....but how they use them and how they are buffed is what makes all the difference. 

 

RG and NL use jump packs as a means of surprise: coming out of nowhere, attacking from a different angle, catching the enemy off guard.

 

NL also use them to amplify their terror tactics: the psychological effect of a rocket-powered superhuman covered in trophies coming right for you. Their 30k tactics reflect this a bit where they get bonuses for dogpiling enemy units. 

 

RG use them a bit more tactically, using jump packs to raid the enemy and then escape. Hit and Run, guerilla style. Much the same way the SAS famously used jeeps in the deserts of North Africa. Infuriate your enemy by coming from nowhere, then slip away, then do it again. You can chase him, but then you expose yourself even more. 

 

BA use them to "fly." To emulate their Primarch, to soar above the battlefields and strike from the heavens. They use them to move as much as they use them to get them into combat faster. 

 

At least that's my take on it. 

[Panzer]

Yeah but my problem is that the way BA use them currently is super boring. We don't use them in any special way. We just spam them on every unit possible except for Devastators, Tacticals, Sternguards and Scouts. That's boring. It's probably my number one reason why I don't exactly like the current BA codex. We have our melee unit 1 with jump packs, melee unit 2 with jump packs, melee unit 3 with jump packs and melee unit 4 with jump packs and they all do more or less the same just slightly differently. Yawn.

 

That's like saying Chapter X is the Rhino chapter because they use Rhinos for every unit and Chapter Y is the Razorback chapter because they use Razorbacks for everything and Chapter Z is the Drop Pod chapter because they use Drop Pods for everything.

 

If we just had some neat special rule that shows that BA use their Jump Packs all the time and managed to achieve some mastery of it others didn't. Or use upgraded Jump Packs that help them to "fly" better. Hell even just having more movement or armywide hit&run on Jump Packs would make a huge difference in how the army would feel to play.

 

And again, using Jump Packs is not THE thing of BA. They are fast and close to the enemy in all regards. Fast tanks, Tanks with Heavy Flamer, Tacticals with Heavy Flamer, Assaults with Melta. Everything about the BA is "in your face", not just "using Jump Packs a lot to 'fly' ".

 

I know my complains are not exactly about how BA are displayed in the fluff but then again the initial argument was about the SW codex in the first place as well. The way a codex is written does a LOT for how an army is seen and what their traits are/supposed to be in the community.

[Indefragable]

 

I know my complains are not exactly about how BA are displayed in the fluff but then again the initial argument was about the SW codex in the first place as well. The way a codex is written does a LOT for how an army is seen and what their traits are/supposed to be in the community.

 

That's all of our complaint rolled into one! 

 

As for "all jump packs, all the time" I don't disagree with you, with the "what the heck's the point of Tactical Marines if they don't get Jump Packs?" angle: there should be some variety. However, think of White Scars and their bikes. They go together like lamb and tuna . They get Chapter Tactic buffs to them and formation buffs to them. It makes sense both fluff and crunch wise for WS to use bikes. So of course that means no one ever uses White Scars Grav Centurions, right? They still have plenty of ways of using other units, but those units compliment and fill in gaps for their super awesome sauce bikers, not entirely replace them (unless you're me, but that's a different story). I see BA the same way: jump packers are the "premiere" element of the IX, but not the only element. 

[Arkangilos]

But in the fluff, we aren't really all that special unit wise. What makes us special is the red thirst and Black Rage, the Red Thirst is the only thing handled unfluffy (in my opinion). It used to be right (in 3rd edition), where our rules represented our tendency to abandon advantageous positions to charge, and we got both +1 I and S.

 

Other than our flaws, Sanguinary Guard, and Sanguinary Priests and *preference* for flying, we aren't any different than the Ultramarines. Space Wolves, on the other hand, are WAY different.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

But in the fluff, we aren't really all that special unit wise. What makes us special is the red thirst and Black Rage, the Red Thirst is the only thing handled unfluffy (in my opinion). It used to be right (in 3rd edition), where our rules represented our tendency to abandon advantageous positions to charge, and we got both +1 I and S.

 

Other than our flaws, Sanguinary Guard, and Sanguinary Priests and *preference* for flying, we aren't any different than the Ultramarines. Space Wolves, on the other hand, are WAY different.

 

Well I think it could be argued that the Black Rage and Red Thirst are WAY different than Ultras as well... we also have the Death Company.

 

Back in the Angels of Death (2nd Ed) book all of the little sidebar 'fluff' bits painted the BA's as pretty much psychotic and ferocious monsters once they actually started spilling blood, in one part some horrified IG bystanders compare the BA's to Tyranids.  3rd Edition toned that down a tad but made us more 'blood thirsty' and as you said, actually reflected that in the rules a bit.

[Arkangilos]

 

But in the fluff, we aren't really all that special unit wise. What makes us special is the red thirst and Black Rage, the Red Thirst is the only thing handled unfluffy (in my opinion). It used to be right (in 3rd edition), where our rules represented our tendency to abandon advantageous positions to charge, and we got both +1 I and S.

 

Other than our flaws, Sanguinary Guard, and Sanguinary Priests and *preference* for flying, we aren't any different than the Ultramarines. Space Wolves, on the other hand, are WAY different.

 

Well I think it could be argued that the Black Rage and Red Thirst are WAY different than Ultras as well... we also have the Death Company.

 

Back in the Angels of Death (2nd Ed) book all of the little sidebar 'fluff' bits painted the BA's as pretty much psychotic and ferocious monsters once they actually started spilling blood, in one part some horrified IG bystanders compare the BA's to Tyranids.  3rd Edition toned that down a tad but made us more 'blood thirsty' and as you said, actually reflected that in the rules a bit.

 

The Death Company is part of my, "What makes us special is the red thirst and Black Rage, the Red Thirst is the only thing handled unfluffy (in my opinion). " and "Other than our flaws, Sanguinary Guard, and Sanguinary Priests and *preference* for flying"  statements.

 

The Black Rage is already represented in the fluff (rather well) with our death company. The Red Thirst (which is the same as it has always been, fluff wise, for the most part), is not. Only Third Edition got our Red Thirst right, and the Red Thirst is the only reason our chapter has ever had the ferocious and monsterous reputation. So like I said, besides the flaw, the Sanguinary Priests, and the Sanguinary Guard (and I guess tanks, which I should have included earlier), we are the same as codex chapters. Space Wolves are not.

 

Things we have done according to fluff:

1) Adopted the codex structure (represented in rules)

2) Adopted the codex guidelines (represented in rules)

3) Relied more heavily on flying because it's natural for the BA (represented in rules)

4) Relied more on speed to get up close to spill blood (because we have the flaw). (Represented in rules).

 

Things the SW have done according to fluff:

1) Reject the codex structure (represented in rules)

2) Reject the codex guidelines (represented in rules)

3) Relied more on viking like, melee type action (represented in rules).

 

 

 

So yeah, I don't see the problem with people being special. The Flaw is what makes us special. The only problem is that ONE part of the flaw isn't represented well right now (it should be an actual flaw, not just some one up bonus for charging. I mean like it should be a downside as well as a bonus). Once that gets addressed I'll be happier about it.

 

The space wolves don't really have a flaw, they just have stupid units (TWC is a stupid unit, it should be scouts, not power armored marines, and it should replace scout bikes, IMO). I have absolutely no problem with their Wulfen being more powerful (though I wouldn't mind them having some drawbacks to make them feel more warewulfy). 

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Don't get me wrong I agree with most of that but I'd point out, we do follow, more or less, the codex structures (as to Chapter organization) but certainly not codex guidelines. Our heraldry, our chapter leadership and the typical BA strike force are not like the Ultras, nor is our fighting style / doctrine. SW are definitely more divergent though yep.

[Arkangilos]

By guidelines I meant more of, "scout > assault > dev > tactical > veteran" type thing, but good point on that anyways. 

 

The typical strike force actually is more like the Ultra's (Demi Company, with our companies set up the same), and our doctrine is *supposed* to be well rounded. I say supposed to be because it's acknowledged that it isn't because the flaw makes it difficult to be. But that's where my statement on how the flaw isn't represented well comes in, and only reinforces my main point. Basically, in Shadow Wars, the rules are reflected decently enough to show the difference (Ferocious, for example, has Berserk Charge, and other rules that encourage moving forward), and still decently follows the fluff.