"Crusade Armour" that appears to be Proto-Mk.VIII?

[Ryltar Thamior]

So I happened across this image from the old WD Index Astartes series of a Pre-Heresy Imperial Fist. It's interesting to note the red helmet with white stripe (has the meaning of that actually been clarified anywhere?); but what most threw me about the picture in question is that the Marine appears to be clad in something which rather overtly resembles modern Mk.VIII plate. 

http://redelf.narod.ru/p/w40k_ia_if_m1.jpg

I mean, to be fair, there are some obvious differences with the most recent sculpts of Mk.VIII (as seen on the Deathwatch and Sternguard Veterans kits). There aren't any obviously visible plates covering hte joint between waste and thigh, for example; the joins in the armour ('seams'?) are visually apparent; and the shape of the kneeplates are different. The shoulderpads are also missing their customary raised-rim, although there's a clearly apparent visual coterminity between whatever these pads are and later Mk.VII or VIII pads. And the backpack is of a more longitudinally 'compressed' design. 

But then we look at the similarities. Apart from the pads, the helmet is quite clearly of a pattern overtly similar to those seen on Mk.VII and VIII - whilst lacking the bonding studs adn wide 'jowls' [potentially, it's a little hard to see/extrapolate behind the gorget] which characterize Mk.V. [which anyway would be unlikely to be available for a "Pre-Heresy" Marine]. There are also articulated kneepads [which, to be fair, are available in a different form on the Mk.IV - and, for that matter. somewhat on the II and III] Whomever designed this armour has also evidently pursued very similar objectives to that which gave rise to the Mk.VIII - namely, internalizing as much cabling as possible, providing superior mobility with better shaping around joints, and covering over as many obvious 'weak spots' as possible. [also probably worth noting that some of Mk.VIII's additional features hadn't really been nailed down at the time of the illustration, either - hence why we see Marines in ForgeWorld's Badab War books allegedly in Mk.VIII who basically only have the gorget to distinguish them from Mk.VII]

In any case, there are a number of potential explanations for this illustration. One is, simply, taht whomever did it was exercising a flight of imaginative fancy. In the very early 2000s, when the excellent IA series was being done through WD, the Heresy and its armour patterns had not been so definitively 'pinned down' as they have been by subsequent novels, artbooks, and ForgeWorld in general. So an illustrator asked to conceptualize an armour pattern that felt definitively 'Fisty' may simply have decided to go with something simultaneously higher tech looking than the Mk.VI other legions were often depicted in for their "Pre-Heresy"-era Marine, yet more archaic than the Mk.VII which the 'Present Day" marine from teh same panel was wearing. 

But that's neither fun nor especially useful :P And in any case, there's a notable penchant for ForgeWorld to attempt to include even seemingly 'throwaway' designs from GW's past in their expository material. So I'd therefore like to pursue an 'in-universe' explanation [or, if one already exists, I'm all ears...].

About the best I can come up with is that this does, in fact, represent an attempt at establishing the "next generation" of Power Armour from the forges on Mars, which may have been granted in some numbers to Imperial Fists for field-testing. It could therefore be an alternate pattern of Mk.VII - one which ultimately found itself being passed over for some reason when it came time to actually start mass-producing Mk.VII for the Heresy. [which still leaves the question as to why it was chosen as a 'typical' representation of the Fists of the day] Or it could be an "Artificer" pattern custom-designed for the Marine in question [although this would be seriously odd for an ordinary line-marine].

What do you reckon, B&C?

[Brother Pheidias]

There's also the case of the Word Bearers Ashen Circle wearing Mk. II or III but with substantially raised gorgets and other features reminiscent of Mk. VIII. I'd wager many of the developments that eventually became Mk. VIII would be found in experimental suits, artificer-wrought battle-plate, and field modifications across the Crusade.

[Atia]

They already made a "MkII with gorget" :P

[N1SB]

Great archeoteching there, Brother.  Great job.

 

I'm just sharing some memories going back to 1st ed Rogue Trader and 2nd ed, because IIRC these Index Astartes starting with 3rd ed (as reminded to me by the graph paper-like background and font in that image).  These are my strong immediate reactions of things mentioned multiple times in the lore, but I can't point to particular citations right now.

 

 

+++ The Idea of the Mark VIII's design principles...and problems...go way back +++

 

 

In other words, the high collar and covered joints, were around long before this 3rd ed era image, both in the real world and in-universe.

 

I think the earliest reference to Mark VIII armour was as far back as maybe 1st ed. with rules for the 40k Mentor Legion.  The Mentors (still around) were presented at that time as not just advisers, but also like Beta Testers for new tactics and equipment, which they then share with the other Chapters.  I believe they even mentioned Mark VIII as one of the things they were prototyping (at a time when Mark VI Corvus a.k.a. "Beakie" was still standard, but gradually replaced with Mark VII).

 

Even at that time, there was an in-universe reason why Mark VIII's design wasn't widespread: compatibility issues.

 

The high collar and covered joints weren't a new innovation.  It's obvious, to protect those vulnerable areas around the throat, etc.  The problem that was described, iirc, was that Marines needed a specific type of helmet to go with the high collar, otherwise it scrapes against it, the head movement is limited, etc.  The idea was that they acknowledged Marines' armour got damaged between battles, and they were always rushing from one fight to the next, so were always replacing bits and pieces of their armour from wear & tear.  Mark VI and Mark VII worked well with each other, parts were plentiful, whereas the limited production of Mark VIII was a logistical nightmare.

 

In short, in engineering we'd say "effectiveness vs. efficiency".  The idea of Mark VIII did offer better protection, but the effort required to re-supply it was too big a cost for the value offered at the time.  That's why it wasn't even a thing for a long time.

 

 

+++ But are there other cases where Mark VIII-like patterns existing in the HH era? +++

 

 

As before, the ideas of Mark VIII preceded the actual armour pattern, and we do see similar designs in the Heresy.

 

When we work with certain HQ models, like with Praetors or Centurions, they often have similar high collars, elbow and knee pads that resemble this a lot, now that you rightly brought it up!  It looks like it started with Crusade armour, like here, but modified.  You also see that with the Legion-specific special units in Power Armour, like in my case as an Iron Hands player with Medusan Immortals.

 

The other thing that comes to mind is Artificer Armour.  Even looking at Techmarines in the 40k era, they share these elements.  It's like that the Techmarines and Mechanicum/Mechanicus are fully aware the style of what'll be Mark VIII is better, but can't afford to mass produce it.

 

In both cases, the effectiveness vs. efficiency argument works in favour of having that sort of design.  In the former, as HQ/Elite types are few in number and are given specialised support anyway, yeah, it makes sense.  In the latter with Techmarines...they maintain/modify/make their own armour.  The problems are the same, but the "value vs. costs" are different, so they get the good stuff.

 

 

+++ But why on this particular set of Crusade pattern armour? +++

 

 

It's easier just to settle with "oh, it's artificer armour", but there's even more supporting points on top of that.  It happens this is Crusade pattern armour, one of the more malleable designs.

 

By malleable, I mean Mark II Crusade armour and then Mark V Heresy armour were particularly fluid in design, whereas things like Mark IV Maximus and Mark VIII Errant were specific to their own components.  Mark V Heresy armour has a tacked together look precisely because it was tacked together, in a time when supply chains were broken, it's not so much a set pattern as just the style of the time.  Mark II Crusade armour is like that because...

 

...Mark III Iron armour was originally like an unofficial mod of the Mark II Crusade pattern.

 

Mark III was just a very popular re-working of Mark II by just welding more armour plates to it.  It actually has weight issues due to that...not a big problem for the superhuman Legion Marines with their S4 and T4...but it wasn't supposed to be that way.  That's why we don't see Mark III Jet Pack Assault Marines; I believe that's a deliberate design choice by Forgeworld because they'll land too heavily.

 

But the point is, the Mark II Crusade pattern was adaptive enough to allow for customisations as seen in that pic you found; the existence of Mark III is just evidence of that.  I am guessing from the cog-like pattern on the pauldrons it is supposed to be a set of artificer armour, but it looks more natural on a set of Mark II than, say, a Mark IV, for the reasons above.

 

 

+++ The Helmet's Colours +++

 

 

Ah, before I forget...

 

Red helmet with white stripe, in the 40k era, denotes a Devastator/Heavy Support Veteran, something like a Veteran Sergeant; that's my immediate reaction.  However, upon reflection, the colour coding is generally attributed to the Codex Astartes, which Roboute Guilliman didn't really push out until AFTER the Horus Heresy according to the current fluff.

 

In-universe, it's unclear with the current fluff.  In the real world though, there's another reason to keep in mind.

 

As said, this image came out around the time of 3rd ed.  At that time, the Horus Heresy fluff was not as clearly defined.  The Horus Heresy WAS mentioned even in 1st ed, and there was even a token-based mini-game by Jervis Johnson in a White Dwarf, but details like colour coding weren't set yet.

 

But I'm also looking at this Marine's armour.  It's particularly well-armoured at the expense of flexibility, probably, suggesting he was probably involved in some stand & shoot unit, perhaps siegecraft (i.e. he's either involved in taking down a Fortification or defending one).  Imperial Fists are also particularly well-known for siegecraft, as reflected by both their Legion Tactics and Chapter Tactics.  In short, he does look like a Veteran Sergeant of a Heavy Weapons squad, as his helmet colours suggest.

 

Then 1 final thought - Roboute Guilliman codified, compiled, collected the Codex Astartes.  But he didn't necessarily invent everything in it.  It was more a book of best practices, some of which he himself innovated, some which he observed fighting with other Legions.  So maybe he OR Dorn (or even other Legion commanders) started the practice of painting helmets to identify squad types in the fog of war ALREADY during the Heresy, and they shared the idea.  That wouldn't surprise me as those 2 were particularly meticulous about organisational behaviour and chain of command and whatnot.  So this picture may well be used as evidence to proof the practice was there, but it wasn't put on paper officially until the Codex Astartes came out later.

 

That said, this is conjecture, to be honest.  Out of context, I could also argue red/white (also shown on the kneepad) refers merely to this squad's colours, or even that he was a proto-Techmarine, wearing red as the colour of Mars.

 

 

+++ Bottom Line +++

 

 

There are times when I have to really scrape the bottom of a barrel to explain something in the 30k era.  Not here.

 

I look at it, I think, "ah, probably a Veteran sergeant of some Heavy Weapons Support Squad, with Artificer Armour.  Modified Mark II, using a proto-Dev-Veteran helmet scheme, makes sense."

 

That's not to downplay how interesting that image is to me.  It's because it does fit so many existing concepts, it's particularly fascinating to me.

 

Just 1 Mechanicum/Iron Hands player's thoughts.  Game archaeology is fun.

[Slips]

For the helmets specifically, while general application of the Red & White came about after the codex, for the IF, its standard Vet Sergeant Colors:

 

[Vodunius]

In the very early 2000s, when the excellent IA series was being done through WD, the Heresy and its armour patterns had not been so definitively 'pinned down' as they have been by subsequent novels, artbooks, and ForgeWorld in general. 

 

 

That's the more forgiving point of view, the other is that the actual armour fluff hasn't really changed since the original first edition article on the subject - if only the artist had been bothered to read it.. 

[HvitrValdyr]

They already made a "MkII with gorget" :P

Which model is this?

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Legion Mk II Command set.

 

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-DE/MKII-Command-Set

[HvitrValdyr]

Legion Mk II Command set.

 

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-DE/MKII-Command-Set

Thank you!