SW:A Inducements?

[Gentlemanloser]

Hi all,

 

For those with the rules for shadow war, does it contain anything similair to Blood Bowl inducements, to limit the miss match of facing an opponent vastly more powerful than yourself?

 

I also assume your guys can be outright killed.

 

Are there also blood bowl journeymen equivalents you can use?

 

If not, what happens if you have a run of bad losses, your guys die, and you next face an opponent who has a full squad with no casualties and three times the promethean earned than you?

[Eddie Orlock]

While I can't speak to the new rules, I can speak to how Necromunda historically handled it.

 

In Necromunda, depending on how mismatched it was your guys got bonus experience. If you managed to win you could earn a significant income bonus. So, if the new game is analogous to this I would expect with sufficient mismatch you might be awarded bonus promethium in you can win. I'd similarly expect extra advancements just for attempting.

 

That your dudes can die has already been spoiled, the injury table is much simpler than the predecessor.

 

With regard to journeymen, one possible analogue that was implemented in Necromunda was the ability to recruit 'mentors' if you were sufficiently over matched. A chance that one of a number of guest star models would temporarily join your team for that game only to help you out. I could easily see the new game allowing you the free use of some of your special operatives if you're sufficiently out rated.

 

Part of the appeal of this system is that it isn't always fair. There's thrill to the had in beating the odds. So, with regard to what happens when you run up against a meaningfully superior team; you probably lose. How bad you lose though might be up to you. Or, if your the right mix of skilled and lucky that day, you win an upset.

 

Unlike in BloodBowl, in Necromunda, and thus I assume ShadowWars, you're free to flee. Running away before you get crushed utterly can be a meaningful choice. You don't have to remain on the pitch getting pummeled when the chips are down. Gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run ... [/Kenny Rogers]

 

Historically, when I played Necromunda we house ruled it that to be eligible for the bonus xp a model had to at least either have shot or been actively shot at by the enemy, so no bottling out turn one. Turn two was okay if you arranged for your guys to 'see the elephant' turn one.

[Gentlemanloser]

Thanks Eddie!

 

From what I've seen there isn't xp in sw. The winner gets to skill up a dude.

 

Edit. You can retire in bb. It's just very bad as you lose your mvp and give it to your opponent.

 

I suppose that's much like gifting your opponent d3 promethean.

[N1SB]

Got the new rulebook in hand now.  Looking up now.

 

Will edit in a moment, brb.

 

 

+++ Edit, after re-reading the relevant sections (and more to correct some points) +++

 

 

No, there are not inducements, but there are benefits for just taking part in a battle, win, lose, or draw.

 

1st, you get 1 Promethium Cache just for attempting a mission.

 

2nd, you can choose a single non-recruit that was not taken out-of-action for an Advancement, where you roll on tables for stat increases or new Skills.  It does NOT mention that you have to win.

 

3rd, if your Leader survived, you get exactly 100 points to spend on new fighter(s) OR exactly 100 points to spend on gear.  If you don't spend it, it is lost; you can't hoard points.  It is interesting to note an Novitiate Scout + Bolt Pistol is EXACTLY 100 points.

 

4th, new recruits that were not taken out-of-action get a "Mission Completed" Marker.  There's actually a check-box thing for each model entry on the kill team roster.  Getting 3 Markers is what gives them a Promotion!  They keep their gear, but their statline changes to that of a full Trooper (there are exceptions like how Chaos Cultists do not magically turn into Chaos Space Marines).

 

I understand this is not an inducement; the loser gets this, but so does the winner, plus he gets more Promethium Caches.  But it does mitigate that gap a bit.  Keep in mind people can choose to fail their "Bottle Check" to pull out of a game.

 

There is also a limitation on how powerful winners get: there is actually a cap on how many models any faction can field.  We've seen this in the free pdfs, but for example Space Marine Scouts can have up to 10, whereas Orks can have up to 20, etc.

 

 

+++ A more fundamental point: I feel Shadow War is SUPPOSED to be a skirmish war of attrition +++

 

 

Reminder - Promethium Caches aren't just prizes to accumulate to win a campaign (the standard campaign length is to get 15 caches, then win a final mission), they're also a resource to recruit more members or "rent" a single-mission Special Operative (i.e. a Terminator).

 

Those are an outline on the mechanics governing profit & loss, and how we can recoup losses, while winners get limit caps.  But looking at all the rules now, I feel the campaign is balanced, not on a match-by-match basis, but deliberately for a long-term survivalist strategy.

 

We're supposed to plan for an ongoing force depletion exercise.

 

To use an (imperfect) analogy, it's like how a 40k game is meant to go for 5 to 7 turns.  We expect to have fewer and fewer models by the end, it's part of the cold calculus of war.  We would not expect to an opponent to say, "I had a really bad Turn 1, could I just get 200 points of reinforcements next turn please" (unless of course he was summoning Daemons or that funky Tau formation).

 

Marine Scouts, Necrons, Orks all seem to have lists or mechanics that really seem to fit the long-game strategy.  To contrast, Harlequins and Tyranids are absolute terrors...mostly in the short-term, even when they're winning.  They basically need to convert Promethium Caches, which is basically their victory points, just to add new fighters.  A comparison I'd make to Blood Bowl is the old Undead team; they're really not great on a match-by-match basis, but in long campaigns, they really start to shine as they outlast other teams.

 

None of this is to disparage the question.  I actually think it's the exactly right thing to ask.  It's like how Sprinters train for speed, but Marathon Runners train for conditioning (I might be completely wrong about that, I don't run).

[Gentlemanloser]

So the first match of a campaign, i can just retreat.

 

And skill up a dude, get 100 points to spend.

 

And the only difference is that my opponent I'd they are lucky might get an extra 1 or 2 promethean?

 

And they might not. And get exactly the same rewards as me?

 

Are campaigns designed for you to face different opponents? Or the same one until one of you wins?

 

Also can you 'waste' opponents promethean, by seeing they've used some to hire a few specialist.

 

And then you just retreat. For potentially no real loss.

 

Unlike in blood bowl.

 

Can winners go above the in built squad limits by purchasing as many specialists as they can afford?

 

Edit. More importantly. Thanks for sharing all this! :D

 

 

Edit2.

 

Can i play a mission. Target the enemy leader. Take them out then retreat.

 

To prevent further casuals to my army. While deny him the 100 points?

[N1SB]

You're right, across the board, but an important stipulation 1st:

 

To retreat, even voluntarily, 25% of your team must be taken out-of-action.  That doesn't mean dead, that means they're wounded, then you roll on an Injury table.  On a roll of 1, that fighter is either Dead or Captured (you roll another D6, 1-3 Dead, 4-6 Captured).  The rest either gives him Frenzy, Hatred...or a free Advancement.  So you can see, just trying, then cutting your losses early, can be a great strategy.

 

Each of your questions, the answer's basically "yes".

 

Campaigns are designed for at least 2 players with at least a team each, but we usually assume more.  We're planning at least 5 players, with each player having at least 2 teams (mainly because we have multiple 40k armies already).

 

I love your thinking about a pure "headhunting" unofficial mission.  There's units that do just that, like Necrons have the Deathmarks to purely take down the Leader.  But they do have to outright kill or capture him, which isn't easy.  However, now that you mention it, I think it's worth taking that unit just to pose a threat, make my opponent guard his Leader with 2 or 3 units, force him to play conservatively.

[Gentlemanloser]

Does one promethean translation into 100 points?

 

If a GK player losses a model, and lose the match, do they need the 100 points from having thier leader up and the one promethean cache you get for losing, just to replace the downed guy?

[N1SB]

Does one promethean translation into 100 points?

 

If a GK player losses a model, and lose the match, do they need the 100 points from having thier leader up and the one promethean cache you get for losing, just to replace the downed guy?

 

Yeah, 1 Prometheum Cache, and can be added to that free 100 points for reinforcements, to buy expensive guys like GK i.e. free 100 points + paid 100 points with Prometheum Cache for a GK that costs 175 points, with the remaining 25 points left over lost (so better to buy the GK Gunner Specialist worth 200 points exactly, which you can have a max of 2.)  I can tell you're really strategising a whole campaign army list building strategy now, good stuff.

 

But please note - it's actually really hard for your guy to outright die.  He has to be really unlucky in his post-fight rolls.

 

Tyranid Warriors have the same problem...as do Harlequins and even Necrons, now that I read more since when I 1st replied.

 

It seems Space Marine Scouts and Craftworld Eldar really hit the sweet spot, with options of exactly 100 points each, etc.

[Canadian_F_H]

Seams orks are made to play more reckless and risk more and take gambles... since I think I saw their new recruit was 30pts, so you can pop up 3 replacements pretty quick.

[Stoic Raptor]

 

3rd, if your Leader survived, you get exactly 100 points to spend on new fighter(s), OR exactly 100 points to spend on gear.

 

Not to be pedantic, but this is an important distinction.  You can either Recruit or Rearm for free, not both.  So if you Recruit a Scout, you're going to have to spend a Promethium cache to have enough points to buy him some equipment, unless you plan to send him into action with just a knife.

[N1SB]

Yeah, good point, thx for correcting me as that's a significant difference.  Edited my post to correct.

 

EDIT TO THIS POST TOO - I re-read this section a few times.  The Structure of the Deal is even more important now.

 

The Recruit option lets you spend 100 points for new unit + his gear (while Rearm is just new gear for existing units).  So even when you begin, it's probably worth having an idea of what can 100 points buy later.

 

A Novitiate Scout (WS 3/BS 3) with a Bolt Pistol is exactly 100 points.  That's probably the best all-purpose purchase option for Recruiting (rather than a full Marine Scout like I previously described, because he then can't afford a weapon without Promethium).  I'm fine with that, but I think it's very important to know in advance that will be my go-to option, because I will have to model/paint my miniatures as such for WYSIWYG.

 

The Takeaway - Brothers, we're used to planning and painting a set army list.  Here, with the campaign rules of Shadow War, it's like we have to plan and paint NOT an army list we'll use now, but what we'll be using by the end of the campaign.  I think it's worth thinking in advance what unit + wargear fits exactly into 100 points that we'll add to our list over the course of a campaign.

[shandwen]

Ill have to reread the rules again but I thought that we either get to recruit or buy equipment: so you better have a spare bolt pistol or whatnot for your new recruit...

I rather hope I am wrong, as game 2 would suck for not being able to buy stuff for new guys.

[N1SB]

Ill have to reread the rules again but I thought that we either get to recruit or buy equipment: so you better have a spare bolt pistol or whatnot for your new recruit...

I rather hope I am wrong, as game 2 would suck for not being able to buy stuff for new guys.

 

Ya, I went back and forth a long time, re-thinking this.  It turns out it's fine.

 

Like a new Recruit will probably NOT be a full Marine Scout with a Bolter (like I planned), because that forces you to spend a Promethium Cache.  But it will INSTEAD be a lower-level Novitiate Scout (WS/BS 3) with a Bolt Pistol, because that adds up to 100 points exactly.  Very valuable to know in advance, this.

[Reyner]

There is also a skill called "Scavenger" that I think is in the guerrilla skill tree (might not be that I'm away from my book at the minute!) This skill will give you an extra 50 points for free if that soldier did not go out of action during the game.

 

So you get a couple of scavengers through lucky advancement rolls and you can be pretty sorted on the recruit/rearm situation.

[Race Bannon]

Seams orks are made to play more reckless and risk more and take gambles... since I think I saw their new recruit was 30pts, so you can pop up 3 replacements pretty quick.

As it should be. Any Ork player being cautious is doing it wrong :P

[Canadian_F_H]

There is also a skill called "Scavenger" that I think is in the guerrilla skill tree (might not be that I'm away from my book at the minute!) This skill will give you an extra 50 points for free if that soldier did not go out of action during the game.

 

So you get a couple of scavengers through lucky advancement rolls and you can be pretty sorted on the recruit/rearm situation.

Wow. That's powerful... if you see a bad match coming. Play to lose but play to live... come out the other side with a mostly intact team and more points to spend then the winner...

[Stoic Raptor]

 

Like a new Recruit will probably NOT be a full Marine Scout with a Bolter (like I planned), because that forces you to spend a Promethium Cache.  But it will INSTEAD be a lower-level Novitiate Scout (WS/BS 3) with a Bolt Pistol, because that adds up to 100 points exactly.  Very valuable to know in advance, this.

 

 

That's a good idea.  I was almost apprehensive of playing my Scout Sniper team because replacing losses would require Promethium each time.  But knowing you can get a rookie and after a few battles, buy him some better gear... that's reassuring.

Only problem for me is, I play Space Wolves so I can't go with the rookie option. :(

[Xenith]

 

There is also a skill called "Scavenger" that I think is in the guerrilla skill tree (might not be that I'm away from my book at the minute!) This skill will give you an extra 50 points for free if that soldier did not go out of action during the game.

 

So you get a couple of scavengers through lucky advancement rolls and you can be pretty sorted on the recruit/rearm situation.

Wow. That's powerful... if you see a bad match coming. Play to lose but play to live... come out the other side with a mostly intact team and more points to spend then the winner...

 

 

A perfectly valid tactic. In Mordheim, this would be "find a couple of wyrdstone shards, send some chaff at the enemy to hit rout threshold, voluntarily rout". Especially with the XP bonus if you're fighting a more powerful warband. 

[HeresyBeliever]

I dont have the rule book (like Most) so please excause my stupid question.

 

So at the end of each mission win or lose you get 100 points to spend. 

Depending on mission outcomes you can get more

 

Then if you find and keep the promethium tokens each are worth another ??? points

[Reyner]

Promethium caches (tokens) are worth 100 points so you can get 100 points for a win or loss to recruit OR rearm then trade in a cache for another 100 points. Then if you have any scavenger skill troops you can get extra points from the end of your game. 

[Gentlemanloser]

I take it you can't continue with your current Squad after a campaign ends?

 

Next campaign, everyone starts at base again?

[HeresyBeliever]

Promethium caches (tokens) are worth 100 points so you can get 100 points for a win or loss to recruit OR rearm then trade in a cache for another 100 points. Then if you have any scavenger skill troops you can get extra points from the end of your game. 

Ok 

 

so if you ended with 2 caches you could effectively spend 300 points. If there any benefit to saving the caches other that buy something more expensive after your second game?

[Reyner]

 

Promethium caches (tokens) are worth 100 points so you can get 100 points for a win or loss to recruit OR rearm then trade in a cache for another 100 points. Then if you have any scavenger skill troops you can get extra points from the end of your game. 

Ok 

 

so if you ended with 2 caches you could effectively spend 300 points. If there any benefit to saving the caches other that buy something more expensive after your second game?

 

Not sure on that I'll check my book later for you, it might limit you to trade in 1 cache at a time. The aim of the campaign is to get 15 caches then win a game and you win the campaign.

[N1SB]

I take it you can't continue with your current Squad after a campaign ends?

 

Next campaign, everyone starts at base again?

 

 

It turns out, you can carry-over models.  You pay their unit cost and gear cost, then any Advancements also have a cost, 15 points for a stat advance and 25 points for a skill advance (imho, certain stats and virtually all skills are worth that, as compared to costs of special gear that have similar effects).

 

I do love this, beyond the game mechanics.  It's like New GW understands that players get attached to units, especially since in this sort of game we really convert our models to reflect their newly acquired skills or gear.  Old GW was less like this...but Classic GW, around 1st and 2nd ed, really did this.

 

You do only start with 1000 points in a new campaign, so it won't be your whole team, only crucial members.  There is a long-term strategic consideration; who do you level up and how often, to carry over into new campaigns?  I already decided I'll spread Advancements around my Sniper units, then the rest later, assigning gear as not to make an obvious, over-priced target.

 

 

 

so if you ended with 2 caches you could effectively spend 300 points. If there any benefit to saving the caches other that buy something more expensive after your second game?

 

 

You can spend up to 1 Promethium Cache, so only 200 points.  There are certain missions and pre-mission conditions (there is a table you roll before a game, to represent different narrative or environmental conditions) that give you more points, but in general you can only spend up to 200 points.

 

The purpose of a campaign is to accumulate 15 Caches, so spending a Cache for 100 points is a strategic issue.  I absolutely believe their are armies (mostly Xenos) that will want to spend Caches in the early game until they reach max squad size.

 

I think that absolutely was a factor when they were designing the army lists, it's a very nuanced points system (like a lot of Xenos units, with the basic gun to make them effective, costs 120 to 130 points...just enough to make it a headache logistically).

[Prot]

I agree with the great information in here except one minor thing.... I tried to recruit a new member to my GK team and found I could not figure out a way to include a Gunner. Since they start at 200 there is no way to buy them the compulsory hand to hand or special weapon.

 

So if I've missed something here let me know but as of now I believe Grey Knights can only add a 'Grey Knight'.